[consulting] Estimation-Blowout case-studies wanted

Thu Mar 26 16:49:52 UTC 2009

Hello Victor,
I totally understand your point and unfortunately don't have any
recommendations on how to address it. Everyone world-wide is being affected
by the US economic down-turn (ironic that this highlights how interconnected
we are as a people). In my career I have been through three recessions none
as bad as this one but similar in the symptoms and pains many are
experiencing today.

To show a correlation, in today's market if I were a home buyer it would be
a buyer's market (for those that actually have the money to buy a home).
Unfortunately in today's climate it is an employer's (and it is a client's)
market. Employers can be very picky who they employ for work, likewise
client's can also be picky. Some focus on the lowest cost possible, while
others focus on quality and your ability to execute the work required. This
type of climate puts more pressure for the professionals to out-perform
those they are competing against, to require you or I to increase the amount
of skills we have to offer and the experience to back it up. No matter what
their will always be people who either have more experience or are willing
to do the work for less then you. The key is finding employers or clients
who see your value and agree to pay what you are asking for.

Unfortunately in a Employer's market most (not all) will use this advantage
to lower salaries, to remove employee's benefits, and to generally treat you
like dirt. I know, I have worked for those employers in the end however
(like the elephant) I never forget their actions. For me, (if it is
something I can accept in the short-term) I put up with the employer's BS,
their rude or down right despicable behavior. What I learn is how good are
they as an employer during this time, if they treat me badly then I don't
want to work with them in the good times (when it is an employee's market)
karma can be a bitch.

So to me the root of your statements seems to want to level the playing
field between different developers to try and set a standard rate. I wish
you luck, but ultimately that will fail, not because you don't lack the
desire to make it happen. Simply because many people (I would be guilty as
well) who may have more skill will charge more and may try harder to get a
job then others. Some may also accept loosing what creature comforts they
have and live lean until things get better.

Simply put, all of us are competing in a global market and just setting your
rates will not guarantee anything. What does matter is your ability to
market yourself, you reputation, your skills, and your experience. I am not
claiming you lack any of these, just simply that we all need to improve one
or all of these to be competitive and to become better professionals. I
firmly believe (and it has suited me well in my 16 years in the tech
business) if you work very hard as fine tuning your skills and work honestly
with everyone that the money and stability will come. Sometimes that might
mean a whole year or two with no work (as I had experienced) in others it
may require you take a salary cut (25k like I have) but over the long-term
of your career think about the next five to ten years. Where you want to be
and what you need to know, who you need to know, and what experience you
need to have to be at that position then work toward it.

Rates go up and down, salaries go up and down what really matters is are you
doing what you love (and or does your job allow you fund that which you
love)? If not, then keep searching for another career or job or idea that
will.

2009/3/26 Victor Kane <victorkane at gmail.com>

> Thanks for asking, Sam.
>
> The problem is that there is a huge crisis in the regime in which we live.
> As a result, there is a huge flux from propietary to open source products,
> both in terms of software and programmers.
>
> This is "good" in the sense that there is suddenly more work than we know
> what to do with.
>
> This is "bad" however in that it is part of a broader attack on working
> class standard of living, and will lead to lowering of rates and in the
> short term a huge deterioration in our working conditions.
>
> This vision comes from taking the situation and analyzing it both
> historically and in terms of what is really going on beneath the surface,
> what is really driving things: capitalist crisis, war, unemployment and
> superexploitation.
>
> In past times, these were philosophical problems. But now, they are killing
> us. In Argentina there is a dengue epidemic that has affected 7,000 people,
> just to name one single aspect of the deterioration of living standards.
>
> In Drupalland, we will have to work more to earn less. And even if this
> doesn't happen in the very short term, working conditions are bad and
> worsening, and there is very little individuals can do to solve this
> problem.
>
> That is the problem we need to fix.
>
> Victor
>
> 2009/3/26 Sam Cohen <sam at samcohen.com>
>
> Victor,
>>
>> What exactly is the problem you are trying to fix?
>>
>> It seems that right now there is an enormous amount of work, enormous
>> opportunities, and for the most part, the pay, at least the pay potential is
>> really quite good.  Drupalers are in high demand.
>>
>> Not sure I get it -- unless your post was tongue in cheek.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>> 2009/3/26 Victor Kane <victorkane at gmail.com>
>>
>> Fascinating discussion.
>>>
>>> But to all you Adam Smith people, I have to say:
>>>
>>> There is no such thing as the individual small producer: there are
>>> factories and workers, monopolies, and wannabe monopolies, and you may think
>>> you are free and individual, but we are all workers in a factory, and the
>>> bosses are driving down wages and salaries as we speak.
>>>
>>> Our real problem is to band together and demand a minimum wage for each
>>> category.
>>>
>>> We need a union.
>>>
>>> Of course we have a right to publish our minimum wage! Of course we have
>>> a right to declare rates beneath which no-one should be accepting work.
>>>
>>> So:
>>>
>>> * All certification under control of the website application developers
>>> union (we can affiliate with writers, with communications, etc...)
>>> * No to monopoly certification programs and other attempts to create
>>> monopolies with the aim of driving down rates.
>>> * Minimum wage for each category.
>>> * Drupal free always as in beer and speech. Drupal development open to
>>> all.
>>>
>>> Only a uniion can do that.
>>>
>>> Otherwise we'll all be washing dishes in Soho, because it's a better paid
>>> job than developing websites.
>>>
>>> Consultants, unite! You have nothing to lose except your WSOD.
>>>
>>> Victor Kane
>>> http://awebfactory.com.ar
>>> http://projectflowandtracker.com
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Michael Prasuhn <mike at mikeyp.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>> I see the logical fallacy that you present here, but I think that misses
>>>> the most poignant part of the message you are replying to and that is:
>>>>
>>>> Publishing your rates != Agreeing to set minimum prices.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway.
>>>>
>>>> -Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 25, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Cary Gordon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  There is a logical fallacy in there. What you are really claiming is
>>>>> that rate disclosure does not directly lead to a monopoly, therefor it
>>>>> is either legal or somehow not as illegal as other collusive behavior.
>>>>> We could have a long discussion of what type of fallacy it is. I go
>>>>> for begging the question.
>>>>>
>>>>> Feel free to disclose your rates. On advice of counsel, I won't.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cary
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Mehboob Alam <malam at thinkx.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But I'm far from convinced that its illegal to share your rates with
>>>>>>> your competitors,one to one or on a mailing list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If GM, Ford, Chrysler and Toyota agree to set prices, that's
>>>>>> "collusion"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If JetBlue, SouthWest, Alaska and others decide to set minimum prices
>>>>>> for certain routes, that's "collusion"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If several LCD manufacturers agree to fix their prices, and that ended
>>>>>> up costing Apple a lot of money due to the lack of competitive
>>>>>> bidding, that's "collusion".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Publishing your rates here.. not so much. The clients have a choice of
>>>>>> thousands of possible vendors for these kinds of projects, and it
>>>>>> would be difficult to set minimum prices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And then, anyone who desperately needs the work can easily low-ball
>>>>>> their rates to get the project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, fire away.. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> just my opinion..
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> consulting mailing list
>>>>>> consulting at drupal.org
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cary Gordon
>>>>> The Cherry Hill Company
>>>>> http://chillco.com
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> consulting mailing list
>>>>> consulting at drupal.org
>>>>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________________
>>>> Michael Prasuhn
>>>> 503.488.5433 office
>>>> 714.356.0168 cell
>>>> 503.661.7574 home
>>>> mike at mikeyp.net
>>>> http://mikeyp.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
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-- 
Robert Foley Jr
Business Analyst | Information Architect | Application Architect
robertfoleyjr at gmail.com
http://www.robertfoleyjr.com
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