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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#663300'>I agree, fascinating discussion. Victor, I think you should
solve this problem at the same time as the recently discussed “cleaning
up after bad developers” problem. The solution should not be named a
union but an industry group... like a group of professionals.
Individuals/companies can sign up, for which they pay a yearly fee. You review
some of their work and “certify” it, sort of, to allow them to join.
Once they’ve joined, all work produced by a member must be reviewed by
another unrelated member, giving clients a certain level of peer-review quality.
This won’t force an hourly rate but you could recommend one for your
members... at least they would have something to stand on when they charge
more.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#663300'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#663300'>Or something like that. No examples of something like this that
worked come to mind so it could be completely stupid; it’s just some
ideas floating around my head.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#663300'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#663300'>But I did want to mention that the problem discussed in the “cleaning
up after bad developers” thread has nothing to do with Drupal. It has to
do with IT workers and exists in all facets of IT. Truthfully, it exists in
basically all kinds of work – that’s why you get recommendations on
a builder instead of just opening the yellow pages, isn’t it? I think
independent review would be the best way to solve it but I don’t know of
that practice really existing at all in IT. I guess no-one wants to pay for
that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#663300'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#663300'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#663300'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#663300'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> consulting-bounces@drupal.org
[mailto:consulting-bounces@drupal.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Victor Kane<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 26 March 2009 12:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [consulting] Estimation-Blowout case-studies wanted<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Fascinating discussion.<br>
<br>
But to all you Adam Smith people, I have to say:<br>
<br>
There is no such thing as the individual small producer: there are factories
and workers, monopolies, and wannabe monopolies, and you may think you are free
and individual, but we are all workers in a factory, and the bosses are driving
down wages and salaries as we speak.<br>
<br>
Our real problem is to band together and demand a minimum wage for each
category.<br>
<br>
We need a union.<br>
<br>
Of course we have a right to publish our minimum wage! Of course we have a
right to declare rates beneath which no-one should be accepting work.<br>
<br>
So:<br>
<br>
* All certification under control of the website application developers union
(we can affiliate with writers, with communications, etc...) <br>
* No to monopoly certification programs and other attempts to create monopolies
with the aim of driving down rates.<br>
* Minimum wage for each category.<br>
* Drupal free always as in beer and speech. Drupal development open to all.<br>
<br>
Only a uniion can do that.<br>
<br>
Otherwise we'll all be washing dishes in Soho, because it's a better paid job
than developing websites.<br>
<br>
Consultants, unite! You have nothing to lose except your WSOD.<br>
<br>
Victor Kane<br>
<a href="http://awebfactory.com.ar">http://awebfactory.com.ar</a><br>
<a href="http://projectflowandtracker.com">http://projectflowandtracker.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Michael Prasuhn <<a
href="mailto:mike@mikeyp.net">mike@mikeyp.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>I see the logical fallacy that you present here, but I think
that misses the most poignant part of the message you are replying to and that
is:<br>
<br>
Publishing your rates != Agreeing to set minimum prices.<br>
<br>
Anyway.<br>
<br>
-Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
On Mar 25, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Cary Gordon wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>There is a logical fallacy in there. What you are really
claiming is<br>
that rate disclosure does not directly lead to a monopoly, therefor it<br>
is either legal or somehow not as illegal as other collusive behavior.<br>
We could have a long discussion of what type of fallacy it is. I go<br>
for begging the question.<br>
<br>
Feel free to disclose your rates. On advice of counsel, I won't.<br>
<br>
Cary<br>
<br>
On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Mehboob Alam <<a
href="mailto:malam@thinkx.com" target="_blank">malam@thinkx.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal>But I'm far from convinced that its illegal to share your
rates with your competitors,one to one or on a mailing list.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
If GM, Ford, Chrysler and Toyota agree to set prices, that's
"collusion"<br>
<br>
If JetBlue, SouthWest, Alaska and others decide to set minimum prices<br>
for certain routes, that's "collusion"<br>
<br>
If several LCD manufacturers agree to fix their prices, and that ended<br>
up costing Apple a lot of money due to the lack of competitive<br>
bidding, that's "collusion".<br>
<br>
Publishing your rates here.. not so much. The clients have a choice of<br>
thousands of possible vendors for these kinds of projects, and it<br>
would be difficult to set minimum prices.<br>
<br>
And then, anyone who desperately needs the work can easily low-ball<br>
their rates to get the project.<br>
<br>
So, fire away.. :)<br>
<br>
just my opinion..<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Cary Gordon<br>
The Cherry Hill Company<br>
<a href="http://chillco.com" target="_blank">http://chillco.com</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal>__________________<br>
<span style='color:#888888'>Michael Prasuhn<br>
503.488.5433 office<br>
714.356.0168 cell<br>
503.661.7574 home<br>
<a href="mailto:mike@mikeyp.net" target="_blank">mike@mikeyp.net</a><br>
<a href="http://mikeyp.net" target="_blank">http://mikeyp.net</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org" target="_blank">consulting@drupal.org</a><br>
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