Either way, I'm willing to build you (as long as you invest) a pretty cool Drupal site.<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 4:51 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:consulting-request@drupal.org">consulting-request@drupal.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: oDesk (Victor Kane)<br>
2. Re: oDesk (Brian Vuyk)<br>
3. Re: oDesk (Sam Cohen)<br>
4. Re: oDesk (Brian Vuyk)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 17:20:07 -0300<br>
From: Victor Kane <<a href="mailto:victorkane@gmail.com">victorkane@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [consulting] oDesk<br>
To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting<br>
providers" <<a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org">consulting@drupal.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:ff176450905051320h72c01137u6656f91f0a76f051@mail.gmail.com">ff176450905051320h72c01137u6656f91f0a76f051@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
I live in Buenos Aires.<br>
<br>
As someone living in a "third-world" country (similar to g-d forsaken Los<br>
Angeles, for example), I doubt replacing true efficacy, based on as much<br>
trust and cooperation as possible<br>
(possibly fostered by an agile approach to development which doesn't put<br>
the boss, the client and the worker into separate cubicles, but has them all<br>
working together in the same<br>
(could be virtual) room )<br>
)<br>
with whips (are you working?) will improve our lot a lot.<br>
<br>
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Sam Cohen <<a href="mailto:sam@samcohen.com">sam@samcohen.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Victor Kane <<a href="mailto:victorkane@gmail.com">victorkane@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> It's the same thing, and if it isn't, the aim is to make it the same<br>
>> thing.<br>
>><br>
>> The aim is to drive down wages and worsen working conditions. The aim is<br>
>> to make people afraid of being able to take a break, or answer a friends<br>
>> ping on messenger.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Whose aim are you talking about?<br>
><br>
> The aim of the person hiring someone is to make sure that person is working<br>
> when they say they are ...and that they are not -- while they are being<br>
> paid -- writing emails to discussion forums about the merits of being<br>
> monitored by Odesk :)<br>
><br>
><br>
>><br>
>> Proving to the boss with a whip you're on the go, and if you take a break<br>
>> you may not get paid, is sweatshop conditions.<br>
><br>
><br>
> In traditional work environments the "boss" was able to monitor the worker<br>
> because the worker was on the premises. If the worker didn't show up for<br>
> work they weren't paid or they were fired.<br>
><br>
> In a virtual environment there needs to be someway to monitor employers.<br>
><br>
> I don't see any whips here.<br>
><br>
><br>
>><br>
>> No disservice done.<br>
>><br>
>> No-one voluntarily works in a sweatshop either. It's because they may not<br>
>> have work. Citing the "freedom" to accept or not these conditions is<br>
>> tantamount to a "freedom to work" position.<br>
>><br>
>> No-one has that freedom if they don't have work. There are tons of people<br>
>> in the IT industry without work. These sweatshop conditions must never be<br>
>> allowed to become "acceptable".<br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
> But we are not talking about sweatshop conditions. We're talking about<br>
> holding people accountable.<br>
><br>
> If anything the conditions of Odesk workers are incredibly liberating for<br>
> those accepting work in these countries. These folks are their own boss,<br>
> can negotiate their own terms, and get rewarded according to their abilities<br>
> and willingness to work hard. There's no master slave relationship. They<br>
> are on equal terms with those who hire them. (Just ask them what they think)<br>
><br>
> Monitoring their computer is no different than the way a meter would<br>
> monitor a taxi driver who takes you somewhere -- or would you just let the<br>
> taxi driver charge you whatever he wants when you get to your destination.<br>
><br>
> I think sites like ODesk create great opportunities for people in third<br>
> world countries to improve their condition and live a better life, more than<br>
> any amount of chairty and foreign aid could ever do.<br>
><br>
> Sam<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>><br>
>> Victor<br>
>><br>
>> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Sam Cohen <<a href="mailto:sam@samcohen.com">sam@samcohen.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> The attempt by you of posting here in order to normalize and pass off as<br>
>>>> perfectly acceptable a power "master"/"slave" relationship between those<br>
>>>> selling and purchasing labor power needs to be denounced, as several here on<br>
>>>> this thread already have.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I believe personally that it is brazen of you to defend sweat shop<br>
>>>> conditions, where you as a purchaser of labor power get to pry into the<br>
>>>> private screen of someone selling their labor power to you!<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Who said anything about sweatshop conditions? I think its unfair of you<br>
>>> to accuse Matt of that.<br>
>>><br>
>>> He's simply trying to make sure that the folks he hires are working.<br>
>>> Every employer in the world does that, and in remote work environments, it's<br>
>>> particularly important.<br>
>>><br>
>>> As free individuals they can chose not to accept that type of<br>
>>> monitoring.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I wouldn't work under those conditions right now, because I have plenty<br>
>>> of work.<br>
>>><br>
>>> But if I really needed the work and the condition was that I would be<br>
>>> monitored, I would take it.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I hardly see that as slavery -- it's just being held accountable.<br>
>>><br>
>>> There is an enormous amount of real suffering in the world by those who<br>
>>> work in slavery or under sweatshop conditions. You do them a disservice by<br>
>>> equating their condition with an Odesk worker having their computer<br>
>>> monitored.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Sam<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> consulting mailing list<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org">consulting@drupal.org</a><br>
>>> <a href="http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting" target="_blank">http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> consulting mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org">consulting@drupal.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting" target="_blank">http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> consulting mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org">consulting@drupal.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting" target="_blank">http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting</a><br>
><br>
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<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 16:20:44 -0400<br>
From: Brian Vuyk <<a href="mailto:brian@brianvuyk.com">brian@brianvuyk.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [consulting] oDesk<br>
To: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers<br>
<<a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org">consulting@drupal.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4A009F9C.9040400@brianvuyk.com">4A009F9C.9040400@brianvuyk.com</a>><br>
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<br>
On 05/05/2009 04:13 PM, Sam Cohen wrote:<br>
> In traditional work environments the "boss" was able to monitor the<br>
> worker because the worker was on the premises. If the worker didn't<br>
> show up for work they weren't paid or they were fired.<br>
><br>
> In a virtual environment there needs to be someway to monitor employers.<br>
<br>
This is the problem.<br>
<br>
My client is not my boss. I am not my client's employee.<br>
<br>
--<br>
*Brian Vuyk*<br>
Web Design & Development<br>
T: 613-534-2916<br>
Skype: brianvuyk<br>
<a href="mailto:brian@brianvuyk.com">brian@brianvuyk.com</a> | <a href="http://www.brianvuyk.com" target="_blank">http://www.brianvuyk.com</a><br>
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<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 16:31:04 -0400<br>
From: Sam Cohen <<a href="mailto:sam@samcohen.com">sam@samcohen.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [consulting] oDesk<br>
To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting<br>
providers" <<a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org">consulting@drupal.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:a0b404fa0905051331u7c4f3724yb7b1ff67b81f780a@mail.gmail.com">a0b404fa0905051331u7c4f3724yb7b1ff67b81f780a@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Brian Vuyk <<a href="mailto:brian@brianvuyk.com">brian@brianvuyk.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> On 05/05/2009 04:13 PM, Sam Cohen wrote:<br>
><br>
> In traditional work environments the "boss" was able to monitor the worker<br>
> because the worker was on the premises. If the worker didn't show up for<br>
> work they weren't paid or they were fired.<br>
><br>
> In a virtual environment there needs to be someway to monitor employers.<br>
><br>
><br>
> This is the problem.<br>
><br>
> My client is not my boss. I am not my client's employee.<br>
><br>
This is a semantic difference -- if you are buying a service, if you are<br>
hiring a lawyer, accountant, contractor, whatever, it's an exchange. I'm<br>
giving money in return for a service received. Just as the person being<br>
paid has a right to ensure they receive their money, the person paying for<br>
the service, has a right to ensure they are receiving what they are paying<br>
for.<br>
<br>
If it's based on a certain outcome then this isn't an issue. But if I'm<br>
hiring someone to do something hourly and they are at a remote location,<br>
then I need some way to know they are working.<br>
<br>
This doesn't make them inferior to me. Just as my putting the money in<br>
escrow makes me inferior to them.<br>
<br>
Sam<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> *Brian Vuyk*<br>
> Web Design & Development<br>
> T: 613-534-2916<br>
> Skype: brianvuyk<br>
> <a href="mailto:brian@brianvuyk.com">brian@brianvuyk.com</a> | <a href="http://www.brianvuyk.com" target="_blank">http://www.brianvuyk.com</a><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> consulting mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org">consulting@drupal.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting" target="_blank">http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting</a><br>
><br>
><br>
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<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 16:50:38 -0400<br>
From: Brian Vuyk <<a href="mailto:brian@brianvuyk.com">brian@brianvuyk.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [consulting] oDesk<br>
To: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers<br>
<<a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org">consulting@drupal.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4A00A69E.3060601@brianvuyk.com">4A00A69E.3060601@brianvuyk.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Would you sit in your lawyer's office to make sure he is working?<br>
<br>
It's not just a semantic difference.<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<br>
On 05/05/2009 04:31 PM, Sam Cohen wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Brian Vuyk <<a href="mailto:brian@brianvuyk.com">brian@brianvuyk.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:brian@brianvuyk.com">brian@brianvuyk.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> On 05/05/2009 04:13 PM, Sam Cohen wrote:<br>
>> In traditional work environments the "boss" was able to monitor<br>
>> the worker because the worker was on the premises. If the worker<br>
>> didn't show up for work they weren't paid or they were fired.<br>
>><br>
>> In a virtual environment there needs to be someway to monitor<br>
>> employers.<br>
><br>
> This is the problem.<br>
><br>
> My client is not my boss. I am not my client's employee.<br>
><br>
> This is a semantic difference -- if you are buying a service, if you<br>
> are hiring a lawyer, accountant, contractor, whatever, it's an<br>
> exchange. I'm giving money in return for a service received. Just as<br>
> the person being paid has a right to ensure they receive their money,<br>
> the person paying for the service, has a right to ensure they are<br>
> receiving what they are paying for.<br>
><br>
> If it's based on a certain outcome then this isn't an issue. But if<br>
> I'm hiring someone to do something hourly and they are at a remote<br>
> location, then I need some way to know they are working.<br>
><br>
> This doesn't make them inferior to me. Just as my putting the money<br>
> in escrow makes me inferior to them.<br>
><br>
> Sam<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> *Brian Vuyk*<br>
> Web Design & Development<br>
> T: 613-534-2916<br>
> Skype: brianvuyk<br>
> <a href="mailto:brian@brianvuyk.com">brian@brianvuyk.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:brian@brianvuyk.com">brian@brianvuyk.com</a>> |<br>
> <a href="http://www.brianvuyk.com" target="_blank">http://www.brianvuyk.com</a><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> consulting mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org">consulting@drupal.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org">consulting@drupal.org</a>><br>
> <a href="http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting" target="_blank">http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> consulting mailing list<br>
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> <a href="http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting" target="_blank">http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
*Brian Vuyk*<br>
Web Design & Development<br>
T: 613-534-2916<br>
Skype: brianvuyk<br>
<a href="mailto:brian@brianvuyk.com">brian@brianvuyk.com</a> | <a href="http://www.brianvuyk.com" target="_blank">http://www.brianvuyk.com</a><br>
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</blockquote></div><br>