<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Good point. Personally I charge for 'Inception' / Discovery / Define&Design time if the project is over 1,000. They have to pay to get it designed, before a final estimate can be determined otherwise your liable to be dead in the water from scope creep. (just my .02 here) -_Dane<br><div><div>On Aug 5, 2009, at 11:38 PM, Domenic Santangelo wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Ayen Designs <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:info@ayendesigns.com">info@ayendesigns.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> My fault for being too kind I suppose.</blockquote><div><br>You know, I don't think that clients need "kindness" per se. Generally, our clients come to us with a problem that needs solving, and we can solve it for them. But sometimes brutal honesty is what they need to get them on track. I don't mean to say we should be rude or condescending or BOFH-ish -- just that true communication is, in the long run, more beneficial to them and to their businesses. *Yes*, we should treat our clients (and everyone, right?) with kindness; but I think you can be honest and kind at the same time. To me, it's a question of what will benefit the client the most in the long run. (caveat: The OP might have meant "polite" or something along those lines, so don't take this as personal criticism :)<br> <br>Tangentially, I've been pondering how we as consultants bill clients. Take this horrible car analogy: I go in and say I want my car to do something it doesn't do properly now (I want the brakes to stop squeaking, I want the AC to blow cold air, whatever). The mechanic tells me it will take x hours at shop rate to diagnose the problem, and that he'll call me with an estimate -- usually with the caveat that if it's something really stupid simple, he'll just do it real fast. I agree, he calls me later and gives me a quick rundown, I say yea or nay.<br> <br>To abstract:<br>1) Client wants something done by a professional<br>2) Professional promises a quote in X hours for $Y per hour<br>3) Professional provides quote<br>4) Client approve or denies, and work either ensues or doesn't.<br> <br>Why is this so different from what we do? The OP mentioned not billing for time investigating. I've seen it done that way in a bunch of shops, where they just chalk it up to the "cost of sale". Maybe I'm just stupid and nobody else works like this, but I know that I've spent a _lot_ of time estimating something out (sometimes as much as 20% of the estimate!) and not billing for it. That doesn't seem right to me. How do you guys handle the OP's situation from a billing standpoint?<br> <br>-Dom<br></div></div> _______________________________________________<br>consulting mailing list<br><a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org">consulting@drupal.org</a><br>http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>