Thanks for your thoughtful reply to a complex subject that is usually hidden under the carpet.<div><br></div><div>The amount of abuse workers suffer from non-regulated environments > abuse from lazy people.</div><div><br>
</div><div>I guess that's my premise.</div><div><br></div><div>The biggest problems in North America seems to be the fact that the union bureaucracy refuses to actually defend the plight of laid off or redundant workers. Detroit is turning into a ghost town without the unions calling for a strike.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Most cases you mention usually have something to do with an entrenched and corrupt union bureaucracy (like the construction "workers" in the Sopranos series). And a lot to do with anti-union propaganda paid for by corporate monopolies.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In California it was positive to see how the SEIU called for a strike against the forced furloughs which make the workers pay for the crisis and not the corporations who are causing the crisis (and still making money).</div>
<div><br></div><div>Just hope it isn't all talk.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Brian Vuyk <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:brian@brianvuyk.com">brian@brianvuyk.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Victor,<br>
<br>
I think there is a big difference in how you view unions in Argentina, and how we view it here.<br>
<br>
Here in North America, many unions have gone past the 'protect the worker' stage, to wielding a lot of power. Many unions here have high levels of corruption in the higher levels, and impede production efficiency by preventing lazy, incompetent or otherwise unfit workers from being fired by union shops / employers.<br>
<br>
Let's say that you had a guy in your Drupal shop who spent most of the day playing computer games. When he wasn't playing computer games, he may check his email, surf Facebook, and perhaps spend an hour per day actually working. Now imagine that you had to pay him 30% above the current market rate you pay your employees, and you can't fire him for his laziness because the union won't allow you to.<br>
<br>
How about if you have a hard worker in your shop, who is turning out tons of excellent, bug-free code, and he is told by a union boss to slow down or face consequences because he is depriving fellow union members of work?<br>
<br>
Unfortunately, these are not perticularly uncommon cases here in North America. That isn't to claim that union employees are all lazy and overpaid. In fact, most are probably very hard working. However, there are many, many cases where lazy or unfit workers are able to abuse the protections offered by the unions, and there is nothing you can do about it.<br>
<br>
Also, to any who claim that we can prevent this from happening... well, it's just human nature coming to light.<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<br>
Victor Kane wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">
Union would make sense for all who have nothing to sell but their labor.<br>
<br>
If you are a one-person shop you are selling your labor. You need a union to defend yourself against forces managed by corporations.<br>
<br>
You strike against corporations, and that means not just in terms of Drupal questions, but also as part of a larger struggle. But even in Drupal questions, it means defending the community of Drupal workers so that corporations do not dictate working conditions.<br>
<br>
Your clients are working for clients are working for clients<br>
<br>
The corporations love it because it is a form of flexibilization.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br></div><div class="im">
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Sam Cohen <<a href="mailto:sam@samcohen.com" target="_blank">sam@samcohen.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:sam@samcohen.com" target="_blank">sam@samcohen.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Union v Non-union doesn't even make sense to me in the context of<br>
Drupal.<br>
<br>
First of all, who is management and who is the worker? I run a<br>
one-person web shop -- where do I fall?<br>
<br>
Do I get to join and if I do, do I go out on strike against myself? <br>
Sam<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Ayen Designs<br></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<<a href="mailto:info@ayendesigns.com" target="_blank">info@ayendesigns.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:info@ayendesigns.com" target="_blank">info@ayendesigns.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Union labor means superior product? Not. I can buy a<br>
handcrafted motorcycle that's a better product than anything<br>
for sale in the store. I can buy a handcrafted bedroom set<br>
that's better than anything for sale in the furniture store.<br>
Here, I've lived in the northeast, where all construction and<br>
utility work is union, and the southeast, where it's not, and<br>
if there is any quality difference on my home, it's better in<br>
the southeast, at a fraction of the price. Home schooled and<br>
privately schooled (non-government) children do consistently<br>
better (here in the U.S.) in testing than those educated by<br>
union labor (although the government controlling the<br>
curriculum plays a part there), on and on. Unions might mean<br>
higher quality on an assembly line, but development is not an<br>
assembly line, the last time I looked. I'd like a good example<br>
of where creativity and intuition plays as much a role in the<br>
product as it does in development, rather than rote, and the<br>
end-product is demonstratively of higher quality because of a<br>
union.<br>
<br>
Victor Kane wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
A union contract?<br>
<br>
All work done with union labor speaks of a superior quality.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
-- <br>
Ayen Designs<br>
388 Bullsboro Drive #105 · Newnan, Georgia 30263<br>
404-271-9734<br></div></div>
<a href="http://ayendesigns.com" target="_blank">ayendesigns.com</a> <<a href="http://ayendesigns.com" target="_blank">http://ayendesigns.com</a>><div class="im"><br>
<br>
Ayen Designs is a tradename of the computer services division of<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
consulting mailing list<br></div>
<a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org" target="_blank">consulting@drupal.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org" target="_blank">consulting@drupal.org</a>><div class="im"><br>
<a href="http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting" target="_blank">http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
consulting mailing list<br></div>
<a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org" target="_blank">consulting@drupal.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org" target="_blank">consulting@drupal.org</a>><div class="im"><br>
<a href="http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting" target="_blank">http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
consulting mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org" target="_blank">consulting@drupal.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting" target="_blank">http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting</a><br>
<br>
</div></blockquote><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
consulting mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org" target="_blank">consulting@drupal.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting" target="_blank">http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>