Here in Argentina, there's plenty of organizing going on among the unemployed.<div><br></div><div>The myth that it's an individual question: if you don't like it quit, survival of the fittest, etc... that's being rejected by workers all over the world... we have to organize to prevent that being imposed on us.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Employers can't do what they want. But workers need to organize to make that stick.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Jeff Greenberg <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jeff@ayendesigns.com">jeff@ayendesigns.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
Maybe there they can do what they want, here, you quit and get another
job if you don't like it. Or you all quit and get another job, and put
them out of business. <br>
<br>
If I start my own business, I can offer what I'd like, and reap great
employees and success or a crappy company as a result. I don't need
people coming in and telling me how I need to run it.<br>
<br>
If you don't like the business...leave. If you own the business and
don't like want a union... close the business... not much organizing to
be done if you're unemployed.<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 08/21/2010 03:14 PM, Victor Kane wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">Not to repeat these things over and over again:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The basic question is, what is the relationship of forces (via
strikes, direct action, etc) between the working class and the bosses.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we are all isolated, they can do what they like. Which is
dire, as things get worse due to the crisis.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we fight together, in a union or other forms of organization,
they can't do as they like.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you buy the myth that it's impossible to organize, we're all
screwed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we organize, we win.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But we can only organize if we fight to change society, that's
the only way to organize without creating yet another bureaucracy.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Jeff
Greenberg <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jeff@ayendesigns.com" target="_blank">jeff@ayendesigns.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex">I
don't think the thoughts represent anything new here. The extreme<br>
right feel that people should be free to choose (or not) everything. The<br>
extreme left feel that the government should provide everything or<br>
otherwise control it. Most people fall in between.<br>
<br>
This country might seem to be one of corporations, but it's primarily of<br>
small businesses. Every mandate costs them money. Every mandate is paid<br>
for by taxing them, which causes some to close or raise prices, which<br>
costs everyone else more.<br>
<br>
It seems to me that successful companies can be measured by innovation,<br>
discovery, and ongoing success. To achieve that, they have to attract<br>
the best and brightest talent, and have a market. To do that they have<br>
to invest in their people and research and development. To do that, they<br>
need profit, rather than have it redirected by the government. How many<br>
of these other societies that burden businesses so heavily lead the<br>
world in technological and scientific discovery? I don't recall Canada<br>
being at the top of the list.<br>
<div>
<div><br>
On 08/21/2010 02:53 PM, Sami Khan wrote:<br>
><br>
>> I'm not sure as to why this is much of a surprise.<br>
>><br>
> Because many other people in other countries (like mine) get a
better<br>
> deal... and their societies work just fine. Society is a massive
game and<br>
> we control all the rules. It is better if the rules are
utilitarian meaning<br>
> the greatest good for the greatest number of people rather than
favouring<br>
> the few at the cost of the many so that they may make even more
wealth. I<br>
> would find it acceptable to take every penny they have say over a
million<br>
> dollars and redistribute it to entrepreneurs with viable business
ideas.<br>
><br>
><br>
>> There are certain<br>
>> protections, and the rest is a consumer market like anything
else. In<br>
>> other words, if you don't like the wage, if you don't like the
benefits<br>
>> package, if you don't like the job title or the wallpaper ...
don't take<br>
>><br>
><br>
>> the job.<br>
>><br>
> The question then is not whether or not protection should exist,
but which<br>
> rules should exist so that they create the greatest amount of good
for all<br>
> who are involved... Not just the shareholders but the stakeholders
too.<br>
> That does not mean management goes away, or that disparity is
eliminated...<br>
> but that it is reduced to the greatest level possible while
keeping the<br>
> system function. Thereby limiting the leisure class significantly
rather<br>
> than magnifying its power.<br>
><br>
><br>
>> On the other hand, there are protections here that are NOT
afforded<br>
>> elsewhere. If you are asked in an interview about your marital
status,<br>
>> location of residence, past times, religious participation,
etc., and do<br>
>><br>
><br>
>> not receive the job, you can sue (which is why companies in
the know<br>
>> train their staff not to ask such questions). I know people in
other<br>
>> countries (especially in Asia) who have been asked in an
interview why<br>
>> they are not married, what their parents do for a living, when
they met<br>
>> their boyfriend and how, and if they had sex outside of
marriage.<br>
>><br>
> I am sure there are countries like this, India being a prime
example of<br>
> where some of these questions might be asked. I consider such
environment<br>
> failures and I think only because of overpopulation they can get
away with<br>
> this sort of shit; too much competition. I don't think we want to
emulate<br>
> failure, I think we want to emulate success.<br>
><br>
> I don't particularly care about shareholders.<br>
><br>
> If every citizen thought like a business, which is the purview of<br>
> economists, then I think every citizen should be strategic in
maximizing<br>
> their personal utility... They should all be taught to behave
rationally<br>
> and treat their lives like a business. That means attempting to
maximize<br>
> personal profit at the cost of everyone and looking out only for
their<br>
> shareholders: i.e. themselves... Which would then in turn lead most<br>
> businesses to fail and society to fall into pieces because of the
zero sum<br>
> game which would be created. It is good for corporations and
societies that<br>
> employees for the most part don't behave this way. It would
therefore be<br>
> good for employees and society if corporations did not behave this
way<br>
> either.<br>
><br>
><br>
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