<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">+1<div><br><div>I'm not following this conversation, and It's filling my inbox. Sure, easy to delete. But harder to sift through what's relevant to me.</div><div><br></div><div>Time to leave the list or to chat with the moderator about their role in moderating.</div><div><br></div><div>Perhaps it's time to spawn another list to accommodate this conversation?</div><div><br></div><div>Kevin<br><div><div><br><div><div>On Aug 22, 2010, at 13:23 PM, Andrew R. Kelly wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">+1.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">We’re abandoning this list if this doesn’t stop.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:consulting-bounces@drupal.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">consulting-bounces@drupal.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:consulting-bounces@drupal.org]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>David Hazel<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:17 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sami.khan@etopian.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">sami.khan@etopian.com</a>; A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [consulting] American Labour Laws & Future of Labour<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Heinz you've been misinformed regarding this list.<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">It's not the "consulting" forum. <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">It's the "my country/government/social agenda/values" are better than your "country/government/social agenda/values" rant forum. <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">But don't feel bad, I think most of us inadvertently signed up to the wrong list. Maybe someone should fix the title.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">But that's just my delusional two cents (or whatever the appropriate denomination for your preferred currency is).<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">-Dave<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:00 AM, Sami Khan <<a href="mailto:sami@etopian.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">sami@etopian.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:30:37 -0400, "Heinz D. Wegener"<br><<a href="mailto:heinz@simplexcreative.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">heinz@simplexcreative.com</a>> wrote:<br>> It's amazing to me how much this "consulting" forum is used to debate<br>> socialism vs. capitalism. Socialism is completely counter-intuitive to<br>> being a consultant. Being a consultant implies that you are interested<br>in<br>> finding jobs that will make you money so that you can support your<br>family.<br>> You are participating in capitalism. This hatred of corporations is<br>> foolishness. Success is not evil. Profit is not evil.<br><br>If the world was as simple as you make it out to be, and all these ideas<br>and thoughts can simply be resolved by consulting a few history books and<br>chanting some mantras about how great everything is... then I might agree<br>with you. The real world is a complex place, if you look around a bit<br>outside of your own life and maybe your circle of friends -- or if you have<br>ever been down on your luck, you would understand.<br><br>The US has a large underclass, approximately 40 million people; these<br>people live below the poverty line. The ideas and the policies are largely<br>to blame for these people being put in their position and not being<br>"successful". Profits are not the problem, but when 30% of the economy is<br>based on financial products for simply allocating money, something is<br>definitely wrong there.<br><br>If the things continue to go the way that they have been, this underclass<br>will grow and there is no guarantee that you or someone you care about<br>won't end up in it. Entrepreneurship is contingent upon the economy, and<br>the economy is contingent upon the middle class for people such as<br>yourself. Supporting policies that increase the size of the middle class<br>and make sure that they have enough money, guarantee that there are<br>opportunities to be had. That's the basics. Beyond that there are questions<br>of morality. Is success for some necessary, sure. But to what extent?<br>Unlimited profits? What if that means that the size of the underclass<br>grows, from 40 million to say 80 million or above. Is that a good way to<br>support "success"?<br><br>There are some who simply debate to win... that is not the aim here. The<br>aim is to explore where one stands and see where there are in relation to<br>everyone else. In doing that we create possibilities for futures, rather<br>than leaving that task to those who are "successful"... because all that<br>they want is to be more "successful". Which means that they want the<br>underclass size to grow.<br><br>You are simply self-concerned with your life, and because things are good<br>for you and those that you care about, you rather ignore that there are any<br>problems... That sort of reactive auto-control approach is what put us in<br>the economic situation that we are in right now.<br><br><br>> My father and his family did not emigrate from Germany to America to<br>> experience despair and normalcy. They came with hope, and they had<br>nothing.<br>> They were hard working people with a desire to succeed in one of the<br>best<br>> countries in the world. My father was 6-years-old when they came to this<br>> country. He worked his ass off with the goal of becoming successful and<br>was<br>> motivated to do so partially because kids would call him a Nazi in<br>school<br>> just for being from Germany. And guess what? He succeeded. And guess<br>what<br>> else? He is the most generous, giving man I know, and has an amazing<br>heart<br>> for people. There's your evil capitalist.<br><br>The Germans are doing fine at this point. So you would be fine whether you<br>were in the US or in Germany; probably better if they are from West<br>Germany. Anecdotes like this about the reaffirmation of American Dream tell<br>us nothing about the actual situation on the ground. Certain statistics<br>paint a different picture. The truth lies somewhere in between.<br><br>If you want some anecdotes of people who are not as lucky as you or your<br>family, look here:<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/invisiblepeopletv" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.youtube.com/user/invisiblepeopletv</a><br><br><br>> My father-in-law experienced the same type of success after his family<br>> fled from Cuba. Both he and my father both become owners of successful<br>> companies. With socialism comes the death of that hope that most<br>immigrants<br>> had back in the 40's and 50's and still have today.<br><br>I think that hope is dead already and it's because of the financial<br>banksters, who are motivated by capitalism. It may be the case that those<br>times are gone for good and we will have to settle for some more social<br>solutions or else face being in the underclass of capitalism.<br><br><br>> Study your history, and<br>> learn the truth yourself. Entrepreneurs were, and continue to be, some<br>of<br>> the primary contributors to America's success.<br><br>I am happy for your family. I also don't support totalitarian Cuba, or any<br>totalitarian socialist economy.<br><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> consulting mailing list<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">consulting@drupal.org</a><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>consulting mailing list<br><a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">consulting@drupal.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting</a><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br clear="all"><br>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Email is not a secure form of communication!<br><br>Drupal Consultant<br>253.686.0296<br><a href="http://www.hazelconsulting.com/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.hazelconsulting.com/</a><br><a href="mailto:dave@hazelconsulting.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">dave@hazelconsulting.com</a><br><a href="http://twitter.com/kananii" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://twitter.com/kananii</a><br>skype: hazelconsulting<br>gtalk:kananii<br><a href="http://www.facebook.com/davidhazel" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.facebook.com/davidhazel</a><br>ICQ: 366587185<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>consulting mailing list<br><a href="mailto:consulting@drupal.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">consulting@drupal.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></body></html>