Heinz you've been misinformed regarding this list.<div><br></div><div>It's not the "consulting" forum. </div><div><br></div><div>It's the "my country/government/social agenda/values" are better than your "country/government/social agenda/values" rant forum. </div>
<div><br></div><div>But don't feel bad, I think most of us inadvertently signed up to the wrong list. Maybe someone should fix the title.</div><div><br></div><div>But that's just my delusional two cents (or whatever the appropriate denomination for your preferred currency is).</div>
<div><br></div><div>-Dave<br><div><br></div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:00 AM, Sami Khan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sami@etopian.net">sami@etopian.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:30:37 -0400, "Heinz D. Wegener"<br>
<<a href="mailto:heinz@simplexcreative.com">heinz@simplexcreative.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> It's amazing to me how much this "consulting" forum is used to debate<br>
> socialism vs. capitalism. Socialism is completely counter-intuitive to<br>
> being a consultant. Being a consultant implies that you are interested<br>
in<br>
> finding jobs that will make you money so that you can support your<br>
family.<br>
> You are participating in capitalism. This hatred of corporations is<br>
> foolishness. Success is not evil. Profit is not evil.<br>
<br>
If the world was as simple as you make it out to be, and all these ideas<br>
and thoughts can simply be resolved by consulting a few history books and<br>
chanting some mantras about how great everything is... then I might agree<br>
with you. The real world is a complex place, if you look around a bit<br>
outside of your own life and maybe your circle of friends -- or if you have<br>
ever been down on your luck, you would understand.<br>
<br>
The US has a large underclass, approximately 40 million people; these<br>
people live below the poverty line. The ideas and the policies are largely<br>
to blame for these people being put in their position and not being<br>
"successful". Profits are not the problem, but when 30% of the economy is<br>
based on financial products for simply allocating money, something is<br>
definitely wrong there.<br>
<br>
If the things continue to go the way that they have been, this underclass<br>
will grow and there is no guarantee that you or someone you care about<br>
won't end up in it. Entrepreneurship is contingent upon the economy, and<br>
the economy is contingent upon the middle class for people such as<br>
yourself. Supporting policies that increase the size of the middle class<br>
and make sure that they have enough money, guarantee that there are<br>
opportunities to be had. That's the basics. Beyond that there are questions<br>
of morality. Is success for some necessary, sure. But to what extent?<br>
Unlimited profits? What if that means that the size of the underclass<br>
grows, from 40 million to say 80 million or above. Is that a good way to<br>
support "success"?<br>
<br>
There are some who simply debate to win... that is not the aim here. The<br>
aim is to explore where one stands and see where there are in relation to<br>
everyone else. In doing that we create possibilities for futures, rather<br>
than leaving that task to those who are "successful"... because all that<br>
they want is to be more "successful". Which means that they want the<br>
underclass size to grow.<br>
<br>
You are simply self-concerned with your life, and because things are good<br>
for you and those that you care about, you rather ignore that there are any<br>
problems... That sort of reactive auto-control approach is what put us in<br>
the economic situation that we are in right now.<br>
<br>
<br>
> My father and his family did not emigrate from Germany to America to<br>
> experience despair and normalcy. They came with hope, and they had<br>
nothing.<br>
> They were hard working people with a desire to succeed in one of the<br>
best<br>
> countries in the world. My father was 6-years-old when they came to this<br>
> country. He worked his ass off with the goal of becoming successful and<br>
was<br>
> motivated to do so partially because kids would call him a Nazi in<br>
school<br>
> just for being from Germany. And guess what? He succeeded. And guess<br>
what<br>
> else? He is the most generous, giving man I know, and has an amazing<br>
heart<br>
> for people. There's your evil capitalist.<br>
<br>
The Germans are doing fine at this point. So you would be fine whether you<br>
were in the US or in Germany; probably better if they are from West<br>
Germany. Anecdotes like this about the reaffirmation of American Dream tell<br>
us nothing about the actual situation on the ground. Certain statistics<br>
paint a different picture. The truth lies somewhere in between.<br>
<br>
If you want some anecdotes of people who are not as lucky as you or your<br>
family, look here:<br>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/invisiblepeopletv" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/invisiblepeopletv</a><br>
<br>
<br>
> My father-in-law experienced the same type of success after his family<br>
> fled from Cuba. Both he and my father both become owners of successful<br>
> companies. With socialism comes the death of that hope that most<br>
immigrants<br>
> had back in the 40's and 50's and still have today.<br>
<br>
I think that hope is dead already and it's because of the financial<br>
banksters, who are motivated by capitalism. It may be the case that those<br>
times are gone for good and we will have to settle for some more social<br>
solutions or else face being in the underclass of capitalism.<br>
<br>
<br>
> Study your history, and<br>
> learn the truth yourself. Entrepreneurs were, and continue to be, some<br>
of<br>
> the primary contributors to America's success.<br>
<br>
I am happy for your family. I also don't support totalitarian Cuba, or any<br>
totalitarian socialist economy.<br>
<br>
><br>
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