<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On 2011-03-18, at 8:53 AM, Daniel F. Kudwien wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>I agree with Angie, Cameron, and Karen. Just like we have<br>#drupal-contribute, we could also need a clearly separated mailing list for<br>all topics focusing on Drupal contributions. That is, regardless of whether<br>core or contrib, or code or usability.<br><br>The separation in IRC has proven to be a good idea, as far as I can tell.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Warning: This is an off-topic rant.</div><div><br></div><div>No. This is actually one of the most damaging things we have *ever* done to our community's health, both in the short term, but especially in the long term.</div><div><br></div><div>The moment that Drupal 7 came out, this is what was happening in #drupal-contribute, faster than the speed of light:</div><div><br></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">10:20:17 PM<span style="color: #000000"> </span><span style="color: #190094">dmitrig01:</span><span style="color: #000000"> dries++</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:17 PM</span> <span style="color: #190094">davereid:</span> drupal7++</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:17 PM</span> <span style="color: #190094">bellHead:</span> beejeebus: Sure - that's the goal. LOC is a far easier metric.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:17 PM</span> <span style="color: #190094">ksenzee:</span> liammcdermott: lol</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:17 PM</span> <span style="color: #190094">Crell:</span> everyone++</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:19 PM</span> <span style="color: #190094">Crell:</span> everyone++</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">10:20:20 PM<span style="color: #000000"> </span><span style="color: #190094">dmitrig01:</span><span style="color: #000000"> dries++</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:21 PM</span> <span style="color: #190094">Crell:</span> everyone++</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(51, 0, 255); "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:21 PM</span><span style="color: #000000"> </span><span style="color: #190094">carlos8f:</span><span style="color: #000000"> <a href="http://drupalcode.org/viewvc/drupal/drupal/?pathrev=DRUPAL-7-0"><span style="text-decoration: underline">http://drupalcode.org/viewvc/drupal/drupal/?pathrev=DRUPAL-7-0</span></a> <a href="http://drupalcode.org/viewvc/drupal/drupal/?pathrev=DRUPAL-7-0"><span style="text-decoration: underline">http://drupalcode.org/viewvc/drupal/drupal/?pathrev=DRUPAL-7-0</span></a> <a href="http://drupalcode.org/viewvc/drupal/drupal/?pathrev=DRUPAL-7-0"><span style="text-decoration: underline">http://drupalcode.org/viewvc/drupal/drupal/?pathrev=DRUPAL-7-0</span></a></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(25, 0, 148); "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:21 PM</span><span style="color: #000000"> </span>liammcdermott:<span style="color: #000000"> webchick++</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:22 PM</span> <span style="color: #190094">Crell:</span> everyone++</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(25, 0, 148); "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:22 PM</span><span style="color: #000000"> </span>liammcdermott:<span style="color: #000000"> webchick++</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:23 PM</span> <span style="color: #190094">arianek:</span> goodness you crazies</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(51, 0, 255); "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:23 PM</span><span style="color: #000000"> </span><span style="color: #190094">jacine:</span><span style="color: #000000"> *hugs <a href="irc://irc.freenode.net/#drupal-contribute"><span style="text-decoration: underline">#drupal-contribute</span></a>*</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:23 PM</span> <span style="color: #190094">Crell:</span> everyone++</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:25 PM</span> <span style="color: #190094">Crell:</span> everyone++</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:26 PM</span> <span style="color: #190094">hejrocker:</span> webchick++</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span style="color: #929292">10:20:26 PM</span> <span style="color: #190094">Crell:</span> everyone++</div><div><br></div></div><div>Conversely, here's what was going on in #drupal:</div><div><br></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">robbiethegeek [<i>~robbiethe@12.88.235.74</i>] entered the room. (10:34:24 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">awjr [<i><a href="mailto:~arthur@rthrrchrds.com">~arthur@rthrrchrds.com</a></i>] entered the room. (10:34:30 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">V1ntage [<i><a href="mailto:~chatzilla@133.30-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be">~chatzilla@133.30-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be</a></i>] entered the room. (10:34:48 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">Stalski [<i><a href="mailto:~stalski@78-21-58-227.access.telenet.be">~stalski@78-21-58-227.access.telenet.be</a></i>] entered the room. (10:35:09 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">ryanblair [<i>~ryanblair@216.136.44.83</i>] entered the room. (10:35:13 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">Stalski left the room. (10:35:18 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">amye [<i><a href="mailto:~amye@c-98-246-185-241.hsd1.or.comcast.net">~amye@c-98-246-185-241.hsd1.or.comcast.net</a></i>] entered the room. (10:35:19 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">Bes` [<i><a href="mailto:~Guillaume@ax313-5-78-227-128-243.fbx.proxad.net">~Guillaume@ax313-5-78-227-128-243.fbx.proxad.net</a></i>] entered the room. (10:35:20 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">Stalski [<i><a href="mailto:~stalski@78-21-58-227.access.telenet.be">~stalski@78-21-58-227.access.telenet.be</a></i>] entered the room. (10:35:25 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">Haza`Aw is now known as Haza` (10:35:37 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">Irishgringo [<i><a href="mailto:~chatzilla@c-66-229-63-143.hsd1.fl.comcast.net">~chatzilla@c-66-229-63-143.hsd1.fl.comcast.net</a></i>] entered the room. (10:36:13 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">langworthy [<i>~langworth@96.49.144.231</i>] entered the room. (10:36:39 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span style="color: #929292">10:36:40 AM</span> <span style="color: #190094">awjr:</span> if i have a module X that calls 'module_invoke_all( 'Y' )', and module X implements hook Y, will Y in module X get invoked?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">gua_ould left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 276 seconds). (10:36:44 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">ryanblair left the room (quit: Client Quit). (10:36:56 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">pwolanin [<i><a href="mailto:~pwolanin@drupal.org">~pwolanin@drupal.org</a>/user/49851/view</i>] entered the room. (10:37:47 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">arianek [<i><a href="mailto:~arianek@S0106001b63f4b826.vc.shawcable.net">~arianek@S0106001b63f4b826.vc.shawcable.net</a></i>] entered the room. (10:38:03 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">marsilainen [<i><a href="mailto:~matt@217.48.125.91.rb3.adsl.brightview.com">~matt@217.48.125.91.rb3.adsl.brightview.com</a></i>] entered the room. (10:38:04 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">arianek left the room (quit: Changing host). (10:38:07 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">arianek [<i><a href="mailto:~arianek@drupal.org">~arianek@drupal.org</a>/user/158886/view</i>] entered the room. (10:38:07 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">stella [<i>~stella@78.16.73.62</i>] entered the room. (10:38:33 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">jjdonson [<i><a href="mailto:~jjdonson@pool-108-41-8-217.nycmny.fios.verizon.net">~jjdonson@pool-108-41-8-217.nycmny.fios.verizon.net</a></i>] entered the room. (10:38:35 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">churel_ left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 264 seconds). (10:38:39 AM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span style="color: #929292">10:39:04 AM</span> <span style="color: #190094">darthsteven:</span> Does a D7 issue that is about a test that would cause a fail if it were testing correctly count as a critical issue?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(146, 146, 146); ">iszak [<i>~iszak@unaffiliated/supavisah</i>] entered the room. (10:39:32 AM)</div><div><br></div></div><div>It's impossible to understate how fundamentally damaging this shift is.</div><div><br></div><div>We've relegated the architects, the builders, the collaborators, the "doers"—the people who fundamentally make the Drupal project what it is and are the heart and soul of our culture—to their own "sub" community in a hidden silo off to the side. We've taught newcomers to the project that IRC is the place to consume, to get help, to make demands, to *take*. And we've created both a physical and psychological divide between "us" and "them," where it used to be all "us". And, most distressingly, there is no longer a pathway for going between "them" and "us" because most of "us" have long since stopped going to #drupal due to the volume of support that happens there now since there is no one left to enforce the culture of getting involved.</div><div><br></div><div>We've repeated this "retreat into our shell" pattern over and over again. IRC (#drupal -> #drupal-contribute), mailing lists (development -> groups/issue queues), the forums (issue queues). What we're left with now is an entire "generation" of Drupal users who think <a href="http://Drupal.org">Drupal.org</a> is a place to *consume*, not a place to *participate*.</div><div><br></div><div>In the end, I have absolutely no idea where Drupal 9 core/contrib developers are going to come from. And that is absolutely terrifying.</div><div><br></div><div>-Angie</div><div><br></div><div>And, fwiw, I "called" this inevitable outcome back in 2009 when this shift was proposed: <a href="http://drupal.org/node/634486#comment-2272630">http://drupal.org/node/634486#comment-2272630</a> Bleh. :(</div><div><br></div></div></body></html>