<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV>Hi everyone,</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I'm Kim, new to the list, and relatively new to Drupal.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I agree that this post is a marketing no-no, and also that it would be far more effective if it were worded more positively. One question I want to ask, as a newbie, is what's the overall goal? Is the goal to create a community for coding and developing and building software? Is the goal to build software that's used as widely as possible? Is there a target end-user?</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>It seems to me that presenting Drupal as a developer's playground where mere-end-users-not-contributors aren't welcome is okay if the goal of the development is to make more development. But if the goal is to make the software popular, then some compromises would be beneficial. There's definitely something to be said for the end-user who "only" gives back by telling everyone she knows that Drupal is the best CMS around.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I like Laura's wording below (except that, to my understanding, "kibitzing" means chit-chatting -- maybe you meant "kvetching," which means complaining?) Of course, I also think that whining can be valuable, too -- staying in touch with the user base leads to development with their needs and wants in mind, which leads to a more popular product if done right. Sure, whine-fests are annoying and counterproductive. But making note of the initial whine can be useful.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I'm sure that in many respects I *am* the person this page is about. Though I'm not basing my experience of Drupal on commercial software. I'm basing it on software like WordPress, the oft-maligned phpBB, etc. I had a hell of a time first starting to use Drupal, and that's why I'm on this list.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Cheers,</DIV><DIV>Kim</DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On 5-Jan-06, at 8:01 AM, Laura Scott wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <FONT face="Verdana">-1 for the tone. Rather than say what Drupal is not, better to emphasize what Drupal is. Something like:<BR> <BR> Drupal represents the result of a collaborative effort between volunteers who contribute their own time and effort to the collective endeavor. As such, Drupal is developed not according to client demand but by the interests of those participating in the collaboration.<BR> <BR> What this means is that while feature suggestions are not discouraged, Drupal users should understand that the best way to get Drupal to do what they want is to participate in the development.<BR> <BR> This does not mean you need to be a PHP expert. Development moves on many fronts, from PHP code to xhtml markup to CSS stylesheets to documentation writing to simply helping where you can in the support forums. Drupal benefits the most from your participation. Kibitzing is of limited value because, in the end, somebody has to do the work.<BR> <BR> ---<BR> <BR> Laura <BR> </FONT><BR> Dries Buytaert wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE cite="midAEFF063A-46AC-4C36-9B3D-B1A5A9FC3A66@buytaert.net" type="cite"><BR> On 02 Jan 2006, at 12:01, Robert Castelo wrote: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">in response to a few hissy fits from users over the last few months, I've posted a page to the handbook explaining to users (non-contributors) that they are not the centre of most developer's universe.... <BR> <BR> Hitchhikers guide to Drupal <BR> <A class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://drupal.org/node/42941">http://drupal.org/node/42941</A> <BR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> 1. It is a fun but confusing title, IMO. <BR> <BR> 2. It duplicates information available in other book pages. If you add or approve this, make sure to clean up some of the other pages! <BR> <BR> -- <BR> Dries Buytaert :: <A class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.buytaert.net/">http://www.buytaert.net/</A> <BR> <BR> --[ documentation | <A class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.drupal.org/listinfo/documentation">http://lists.drupal.org/listinfo/documentation</A> ] <BR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <DIV class="moz-signature">-- <BR> Laura Scott<BR> <A class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:laura@pingv.com">laura@pingv.com</A><BR> <A href="http://pingv.com">pingVision</A><BR> <A href="http://rarepattern.com">rare pattern</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">[ documentation | <A href="http://lists.drupal.org/listinfo/documentation">http://lists.drupal.org/listinfo/documentation</A> ]</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Trebuchet MS; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Trebuchet MS; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Trebuchet MS; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Trebuchet MS; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV style="font-size: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">---</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-size: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#656B76"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ; font-size: 14px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ; font-size: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;; color: rgb(101, 107, 118); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ">Editor</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-size: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#656B76"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ; font-size: 14px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ; font-size: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;; color: rgb(101, 107, 118); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ">Crochet me</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#656B76"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ; font-size: 14px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ; font-size: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;; color: rgb(101, 107, 118); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); "> </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#656B76"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ; font-size: 14px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ; font-size: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;; color: rgb(101, 107, 118); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ">Online Magazine</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-size: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#656B76"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ; font-size: 14px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ; font-size: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;; color: rgb(101, 107, 118); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); "><A href="http://www.crochetme.com">http://www.crochetme.com</A></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-size: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#656B76"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;; color: rgb(101, 107, 118); "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-size: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#656B76"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ; font-size: 14px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ; font-size: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;; color: rgb(101, 107, 118); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(101, 107, 118); ">This is your brain on yarn.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#7A818E"></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN> </DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>