@steve-p,<br><br>Why are "random outsiders" presumed to be bad? Random outsiders are future adopters of Drupal.<br><br>Drupal does not exist for the sake of the Drupal community.<br><br>At Yahoo in 3/07 Dries said, "The purpose of Drupal is to put web developers out-of-work." And he made reference to that statement in his Boston, 2008 talk. I think one could write a book on that statement. I think there may be a bit of a wink-wink/nod-nod in that statement. I actually think he's saying something like "our goal is to increase the impact of web developers on the way people get and exchange information." I think he is trying to get people to think about what they are doing in terms of affecting society and not just building web sites. I think Dries is trying to point us to something that is bigger than this community.<br>
<br>@steve-p: "I believe we should be accountable to the community which is each other." <br><br>I believe Dries said something totally counter to that at Drupalcon, 2008. It was in the part of the talk about the problems that were revealed at University of Minnesota usability testing. He said that we are accountable to the end user, and that we have failed. <br>
<br>There was nothing negative about the affect of his statement at all. This communicates that Dries is not about spin. He wants to leverage the excitement of the community (he's not worried that saying "we have failed" will get anyone less excited) to challenge us to make Drupal better.<br>
<br>Part of the power of web 2.0 is that it presumes that people are not bad, while at the same time developing code that creates secure sites in ways that aren't blunt. Typical security works like this: punish everyone because we know a few people are bad apples. Web 2.0 does not work that way.<br>
<br>Why hold back anything if there is not a good reason?<br><br>Let's say I am a university administrator trying to teach myself about what is the best CMS to use for professor or department web sites. I'm looking <i>at </i>the Drupal community, I'm evaluating it. I come to a node and see the revisions tab. Wow, I think -- this community is transparent. This community is willing to reveal its process. This is open source at its best.<br>
<br>Part of the stress of evaluating any product or group is that one assumes that the group/product being evaluated will be trying to hide its secrets. So when someone sees that the evolution of the d.o. handbook is open for all to see, it communicates that this group is not about hiding its secrets. The result is to lower the anxiety of the person doing the evaluation. It makes it more appealing for someone to choose Drupal. <br>
<br>The "Revision Tab" to anon users would communicate a lot about Drupal's desire to grow, welcome new blood, but most importantly, it would communicate that the Drupal community does not have secrets it is trying to hide.<br>
<br>Shai<br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:22 PM, Steven Peck <<a href="mailto:sepeck@gmail.com">sepeck@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
It's not a reward it's a tool. I am not about 'increasing registered<br>
users' I am about increasing contributors.<br>
<br>
One of the goals many people at Drupal.org is to garner more<br>
participation in the community. This is not about being elitist<br>
thankyouverymuch. This is not about with holding 'goodies'. I am not<br>
really all that worried about 'transparency' to random non-involved<br>
people. If they can't be bothered to be involved then they can make<br>
use of Drupal as they will and best of luck to them. If they choose<br>
to get involved at the most basic of levels by having an account, then<br>
they reap the benefits of that information.<br>
<br>
I believe we should be accountable to the community which is each<br>
other, not random outsiders who can't be bothered to participate. I<br>
am aware that some may not share this view but it has been mine for<br>
quite some time. I am a true believer in our communities meritocracy.<br>
I believe that it has served us well for quite some time.<br>
<br>
I will also point out that this is still a very open discussion and I<br>
am trying to catch up/filter through things to get to some solid ideas<br>
but unless Dries over rides me, the end decision will be mine to make.<br>
I will also mention that I do not always move quickly.<br>
<br>
Do not mistake random user on the Internet with the Drupal community.<br>
In my mind the two are different and I care about the people who are<br>
involved in the community.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Steven<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Shai Gluskin <<a href="mailto:shai@content2zero.com">shai@content2zero.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Steve P. wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> This is not a performance question as far as I am concerned, this is a<br>
>> benefit of<br>
>> joining the community.<br>
><br>
> @steve-p I disagree with this assertion. It suggests that one of the goals<br>
> of Drupal.org is to try to get people to join the community via registering<br>
> at the site. It suggests that <a href="http://drupal.org" target="_blank">drupal.org</a> withholds goodies in order to get<br>
> them to register.<br>
><br>
> There are many legitimate reasons to hold back various functionalities from<br>
> anonymous users (e.g. security, system resources etc.), but I don't believe<br>
> that restricting project transparency for the sake of increasing the number<br>
> of registered users at Drupal.org is a valid reason.<br>
><br>
> I have been really impressed with transparency in the Drupal project. The<br>
> proceedings of the project are available for public review. I find that<br>
> inspiring. That kind of transparency is rare in the worlds of government,<br>
> business, and sadly, non-profits as well. Leaders are typically concerned<br>
> with message, spin, and control. I haven't seen much of that in Drupal. (I'm<br>
> user/50259, joined in 2/06 and have gotten steadily more involved over<br>
> time.)<br>
><br>
> I often need to explain to people that open-source does not mean<br>
> "egalitarian" -- we are not all equal in the project. And Dries as project<br>
> leader has the final say on many things, especially as regards to core. It<br>
> isn't a democracy. But the success of the project does rely on highly<br>
> motivated people becoming involved. I believe that the significant<br>
> transparency of this project is one of the motivating factors for people to<br>
> become involved.<br>
><br>
> The Revisions Tab is a small part of Drupal's transparency profile. But it<br>
> worries me, even in this little arena, to think of access to certain<br>
> information being used as a reward for registration. That feels controlling<br>
> to me. It feels counter to Drupal's open approach.<br>
><br>
> Shai<br>
><br>
> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Steven Peck <<a href="mailto:sepeck@gmail.com">sepeck@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> We are not enabling revisions for anonymous users. This is not a<br>
>> performance question as far as I am concerned, this is a benefit of<br>
>> joining the community.<br>
>><br>
>> On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 2:12 PM, catch <<a href="mailto:catch56@googlemail.com">catch56@googlemail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> > On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Peter Wolanin<br>
>> > wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Regarding making revisions available to anonymous users - you'd better<br>
>> >> talk to Gerhard and Narayan (and other infra people). The scalability<br>
>> >> problem might be that you've essentially doubled the number of<br>
>> >> handbook pages that will be spidered.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > If we excluded *revisions* in robots.txt we could probably avoid the<br>
>> > spidering. That's probably one post subdomain-split anyway.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > <a href="http://drupal.org/handbook/updates" target="_blank">http://drupal.org/handbook/updates</a> was exactly the page I meant,<br>
>> > couldn't<br>
>> > place it when I typed the e-mail. Ta!<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Nat<br>
>> > --<br>
>> > Pending work: <a href="http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/" target="_blank">http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/</a><br>
>> > List archives: <a href="http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/" target="_blank">http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> --<br>
>> Pending work: <a href="http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/" target="_blank">http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/</a><br>
>> List archives: <a href="http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/" target="_blank">http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Pending work: <a href="http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/" target="_blank">http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/</a><br>
> List archives: <a href="http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/" target="_blank">http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/</a><br>
><br>
--<br>
Pending work: <a href="http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/" target="_blank">http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/</a><br>
List archives: <a href="http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/" target="_blank">http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>