Hi, I think that nothing concerning postgresql or Windows can be a critical. Regards, NK
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:24:35 +0200 "Karoly Negyesi" <karoly@negyesi.net> wrote:
Hi,
I think that nothing concerning postgresql or Windows can be a critical.
If you say this in no more than a year you'll have a mono DB CMS. -- Ivan Sergio Borgonovo http://www.webthatworks.it
On 10/19/07, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail@webthatworks.it> wrote:
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:24:35 +0200 "Karoly Negyesi" <karoly@negyesi.net> wrote:
I think that nothing concerning postgresql or Windows can be a critical.
If you say this in no more than a year you'll have a mono DB CMS.
And? This is a Do-ocracy. We have the system that people make and maintain. If people don't consistently step up to maintain postgresql or maintain Drupal on Windows then yes, support for those platforms will slowly degrade and should be dropped. Greg -- Greg Knaddison Denver, CO | http://knaddison.com World Spanish Tour | http://wanderlusting.org/user/greg
On 10/19/07, Greg Knaddison - GVS <Greg@growingventuresolutions.com> wrote:
On 10/19/07, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail@webthatworks.it> wrote:
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:24:35 +0200 "Karoly Negyesi" <karoly@negyesi.net> wrote:
I think that nothing concerning postgresql or Windows can be a critical.
If you say this in no more than a year you'll have a mono DB CMS.
And?
This is a Do-ocracy. We have the system that people make and maintain. If people don't consistently step up to maintain postgresql or maintain Drupal on Windows then yes, support for those platforms will slowly degrade and should be dropped.
Greg, the issue at hand is that the critical queue has some PostgreSQL and Windows fixes, on which people actually work on. This thread is about chx's views on the world, not about the lack of people acting on fixing PostgreSQL or Windows bugs in the issue queue. Gabor
And?
This is a Do-ocracy. We have the system that people make and maintain. If people don't consistently step up to maintain postgresql or maintain Drupal on Windows then yes, support for those platforms will slowly degrade and should be dropped.
Greg
No one talked about dropping support. As long as we state this:
Optional: IIS Drupal core will work using IIS5 or IIS6 if PHP is configured correctly. You will need to use a third party solution to achieve Clean URLs. In view of Microsoft's support life cycle it is suggested you use IIS6. ... PostgreSQL, version 7.3 or newer.
in http://drupal.org/requirements , related issues *should* be marked as critical. If we remove those lines, they should not. Daniel
On 10/19/07, Daniel F. Kudwien <news@unleashedmind.com> wrote:
No one talked about dropping support.
As long as we state this:
Optional: IIS Drupal core will work using IIS5 or IIS6 if PHP is configured correctly. You will need to use a third party solution to achieve Clean URLs. In view of Microsoft's support life cycle it is suggested you use IIS6.
Hm, we actually *recommend* Apache "on Unices or Windows" so there is no need to focus on IIS when we talk about Windows support. Gabor
Hm, we actually *recommend* Apache "on Unices or Windows" so
Sorry, that's what I actually meant. As long as we tell people, we support Drupal running on Windows and/or with PostGreSQL, related bugs may be marked as critical. I could imagine that many devs out there are developing new sites in local environments running on Windows. Daniel
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:28:04 -0300 "Greg Knaddison - GVS" <Greg@GrowingVentureSolutions.com> wrote:
On 10/19/07, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail@webthatworks.it> wrote:
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:24:35 +0200 "Karoly Negyesi" <karoly@negyesi.net> wrote:
I think that nothing concerning postgresql or Windows can be a critical.
If you say this in no more than a year you'll have a mono DB CMS.
And?
This is a Do-ocracy. We have the system that people make and
Every time I step into a problem I report it I fix it an provide the patch. Once you become a mono DB CMS without a DB abstraction layer *it is hard to go back*.
maintain. If people don't consistently step up to maintain postgresql or maintain Drupal on Windows then yes, support for those platforms will slowly degrade and should be dropped.
pgsql has a longer history of supporting transactions, IIS is a rising web server. Most of the fixes I had to make were on modules and they were trivial. -- Ivan Sergio Borgonovo http://www.webthatworks.it
Whatever feelings we may have about Windows, the platform needs to stay supported if we want Drupal to thrive in the future. As http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html shows, Apache declines dramatically in terms of server market share, and Microsoft gets stronger and stronger. As a consequence, I think it is safe to assume that also the number of Drupal installations on Windows will be increasing... Tomás( / Vacilando Greg Knaddison - GVS wrote:
On 10/19/07, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail@webthatworks.it> wrote:
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:24:35 +0200 "Karoly Negyesi" <karoly@negyesi.net> wrote:
I think that nothing concerning postgresql or Windows can be a critical.
If you say this in no more than a year you'll have a mono DB CMS.
And?
This is a Do-ocracy. We have the system that people make and maintain. If people don't consistently step up to maintain postgresql or maintain Drupal on Windows then yes, support for those platforms will slowly degrade and should be dropped.
Greg
Any idea what's behind that? I truly can't imagine ever hosting any of my sites on Windows - in my experience it's been an unstable bloated piece of crap. I used to work for an ISP that had about half Windows servers and half Unix and we had unix servers that had uptimes of over a year, but the Windows servers were lucky if they managed to stay up for more than a month. Tomas J. Fulopp wrote:
Whatever feelings we may have about Windows, the platform needs to stay supported if we want Drupal to thrive in the future.
As http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html shows, Apache declines dramatically in terms of server market share, and Microsoft gets stronger and stronger.
As a consequence, I think it is safe to assume that also the number of Drupal installations on Windows will be increasing...
Tomáš / Vacilando
Greg Knaddison - GVS wrote:
On 10/19/07, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail@webthatworks.it> wrote:
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:24:35 +0200 "Karoly Negyesi" <karoly@negyesi.net> wrote:
I think that nothing concerning postgresql or Windows can be a critical.
If you say this in no more than a year you'll have a mono DB CMS.
And?
This is a Do-ocracy. We have the system that people make and maintain. If people don't consistently step up to maintain postgresql or maintain Drupal on Windows then yes, support for those platforms will slowly degrade and should be dropped.
Greg
-- Sean Robertson Web Developer NGP Software, Inc. seanr@ngpsoftware.com (202) 686-9330 http://www.ngpsoftware.com
On 10/19/07, Sean Robertson <seanr@ngpsoftware.com> wrote:
Any idea what's behind that?
The future is always changing...
I truly can't imagine ever hosting any of my sites on Windows - in my experience it's been an unstable bloated piece of crap. I used to work for an ISP that had about half Windows servers and half Unix and we had unix servers that had uptimes of over a year, but the Windows servers were lucky if they managed to stay up for more than a month.
It does not real matters what is the uptime. If a machine goes down, once per week, but if its up in less than 5 minutes it is still a 99.95% uptime. For the majority of people that is perfectly fine. OTOH, Apache is a beast! I really don't know who consumes more memory: Apache or IIS? Also, I see more and more sites done with ASP.NET, because it really catches a great number of programmers. Due to a mature framework, with the idea of "compiled" code without having to learn to much... And we must admit, a Windows Server is a different kind of animal than a Windows 2000/XP (Vista does not count! It sucks!) having really few problems and a great integration of software and services. Windows Server 2003 + AD + IIS + Exchange = 1 day to install from ground zero, with complete integration between all them. Linux + OpenLDAP + Apache + (Exim or Postfix) = hmmmm how much? and with what integration? All my external web servers are based on Debian with Lighttpd webserver and mail servers based on Exim or Postfix (these last will be transfered to a specific mail service provider). The future? Hmmm... how about a world of FastCGI applications routed through Lighttpd webservers?! At least I'm working for that... Regards, Fernando
It's probably a small number of large server farms. When one of the cybersquatter companies switched their farm from Linux/Apache to Windows/IIS, there was a notable dip from just that one farm. Of course, no one was actually running a real web site on that farm, so it had no impact on us, just on PHBs who don't know how to read statistics with a critical eye. :-) --Larry Garfield On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:24:56 -0400, Sean Robertson <seanr@ngpsoftware.com> wrote:
Any idea what's behind that? I truly can't imagine ever hosting any of my sites on Windows - in my experience it's been an unstable bloated piece of crap. I used to work for an ISP that had about half Windows servers and half Unix and we had unix servers that had uptimes of over a year, but the Windows servers were lucky if they managed to stay up for more than a month.
Tomas J. Fulopp wrote:
Whatever feelings we may have about Windows, the platform needs to stay supported if we want Drupal to thrive in the future.
As http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html shows, Apache declines dramatically in terms of server market share, and Microsoft gets stronger and stronger.
As a consequence, I think it is safe to assume that also the number of Drupal installations on Windows will be increasing...
Tomáš / Vacilando
Greg Knaddison - GVS wrote:
On 10/19/07, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail@webthatworks.it> wrote:
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:24:35 +0200 "Karoly Negyesi" <karoly@negyesi.net> wrote:
I think that nothing concerning postgresql or Windows can be a critical.
If you say this in no more than a year you'll have a mono DB CMS.
And?
This is a Do-ocracy. We have the system that people make and maintain. If people don't consistently step up to maintain postgresql or maintain Drupal on Windows then yes, support for those platforms will slowly degrade and should be dropped.
Greg
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:45:26 -0500 Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com> wrote:
It's probably a small number of large server farms. When one of the cybersquatter companies switched their farm from Linux/Apache to Windows/IIS, there was a notable dip from just that one farm. Of course, no one was actually running a real web site on that farm, so it had no impact on us, just on PHBs who don't know how to read statistics with a critical eye. :-)
Percentage of *active* sites doesn't say that. They are actually switching web sites. As said, and as you can read on netcraft http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2007/10/11/october_2007_web_server_survey.... without my filter moves where due to: - large ISP changing platform - MSN Live growing faster than blogging services provided by Google - Google "custom" web servers eroding Apache share Unless MS is sponsoring those large ISP switch they should have some other form of return if they switched. If you want to have a more detailed picture I'd suggest you read netcraft comments on each report in the past 2 years. It is surprising that google alone is responsible for more than 9% active websites but even if you sum up google and Apache... there is still a net increase in IIS usage. I won't underestimate the technical quality of .NET JIT, VM and IIS and the number of MS programmers around. But still questioning what's the reason. For me svn, ssh, grep, sed still make a huge difference but... maybe I'm just an asshole and they have great tools I don't know... or maybe it is the new wave of VB programmers as there was the wave of PHP programmers. I'd love to see a mature VM with JIT for python or ruby and some framework a little bit humbler than Rails. Django, TurboGears, CherryPy? And why not a more OO PHP with a more mature VM and JIT? -- Ivan Sergio Borgonovo http://www.webthatworks.it
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:24:56 -0400 Sean Robertson <seanr@ngpsoftware.com> wrote:
Any idea what's behind that? I truly can't imagine ever hosting any of my sites on Windows - in my experience it's been an unstable bloated piece of crap. I used to work for an ISP that had about half Windows servers and half Unix and we had unix servers that had uptimes of over a year, but the Windows servers were lucky if they managed to stay up for more than a month.
I've been administering Windows servers and it is not that terrible. If Windows didn't insist on rebooting after most upgrade I would have had pretty high uptimes. I didn't have a chance to administer W2003 and it should be better. I still find it a PITA to administer remotely but they added a quite powerful shell to W2003. I don't know if they have anything resembling ssh... but now you can have pretty cheap VPN setup. .NET, C# and their JIT is not bad at all and at my knowledge there aren't mature VM for php, python, ruby. Part of the loss in market share is due to Google. Part is due to MSN Live. Anyway there is a part that is net loss and I've the same question. Why are they switching? Part could be availability of programmers as it was with VB. I don't think keep on feeling on the Olympus is a good attitude. I've no competence to help the Apache HTTP project. BTW I've no sympathy for Windows... On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 16:50:20 +0100 "Fernando Silva" <fsilva.pt@gmail.com> wrote:
Linux + OpenLDAP + Apache + (Exim or Postfix) = hmmmm how much? and with what integration?
While they may have less integration out of the box I think you can install LAMP in a much more streamline way. -- Ivan Sergio Borgonovo http://www.webthatworks.it
On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 07:10:27PM +0200, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:
"Fernando Silva" <fsilva.pt@gmail.com> wrote:
Linux + OpenLDAP + Apache + (Exim or Postfix) = hmmmm how much? and with what integration? While they may have less integration out of the box I think you can install LAMP in a much more streamline way.
On Ubuntu server all you have to do is select the "lamp-server" task in aptitude, and install it. That's the easy part. What takes some time is locking down the box security-wise. I have no idea how that's done on Windows; I haven't done any technical work on one of those for about ten years. I'm assuming SVN, Drupal, Trac and all that would take similar amounts of time to install on both systems? -c. -- Colan Schwartz Internet Consultant | Openject Consulting | http://www.openject.com/
I just can't keep myself from responding to this. First, Microsoft "bought" this statistics, by going to large domain name registrars and offering them incentives to park their domains on IIS to pump up the traffic. One of those is GoDaddy, and with the number of domains they park, you see the spike in there. Google is your friend for details. Second, Netcraft's data conflicts with other statistics by other companies. For example, see this: http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/data/200709/index.html On 10/19/07, Tomas J. Fulopp <tomi@vacilando.org> wrote:
Whatever feelings we may have about Windows, the platform needs to stay supported if we want Drupal to thrive in the future.
As http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html shows, Apache declines dramatically in terms of server market share, and Microsoft gets stronger and stronger.
As a consequence, I think it is safe to assume that also the number of Drupal installations on Windows will be increasing...
Tomáš / Vacilando
Greg Knaddison - GVS wrote:
On 10/19/07, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail@webthatworks.it> <mail@webthatworks.it> wrote:
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:24:35 +0200 "Karoly Negyesi" <karoly@negyesi.net> <karoly@negyesi.net> wrote:
I think that nothing concerning postgresql or Windows can be a critical.
If you say this in no more than a year you'll have a mono DB CMS.
And?
This is a Do-ocracy. We have the system that people make and maintain. If people don't consistently step up to maintain postgresql or maintain Drupal on Windows then yes, support for those platforms will slowly degrade and should be dropped.
Greg
-- Khalid M. Baheyeldin 2bits.com http://2bits.com Drupal optimization, development, customization and consulting.
Khalid Baheyeldin wrote:
I just can't keep myself from responding to this.
First, Microsoft "bought" this statistics, by going to large domain name registrars and offering them incentives to park their domains on IIS to pump up the traffic. One of those is GoDaddy, and with the number of domains they park, you see the spike in there. I agree that GoDaddy and other big players is part of the reason for the spike in IIS use (even Netcraft reported that as one of the potential reasons for IIS gains against Apache). However, it's also important to realize that it's a lot easier to run PHP these days on IIS. Zend Technologies over the past year has made significant inroads to pushing PHP onto other platforms beyond LAMP. See: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2193783,00.asp
Zend and Microsoft built on a partnership the companies fostered over the last year, beginning with last year's ZendCon PHP conference. This year, Microsoft announced the release of the GoLive beta of an Internet Information Services add-on component, FastCGI. FastCGI serves as an interface between PHP and an IIS Web server delivering substantial reliability and performance benefits for PHP applications running on Windows. It is now available for free from Microsoft at http://www.iis.net/php. These days, there really are not many differences to how a PHP application runs on either Apache or IIS. I think the use of running PHP on IIS will only continue to increase and not decrease. I spent the last five years running an in-house PHP CMS on IIS/Windows for an office Intranet server. Recently we switched the Intranet over to Apache/Linux and except for a few minor changes in the scripts, the migration was easy. The organization I work for has a pretty healthy mix of Windows, Linux, and Unix clients/servers and it's been my experience that all platforms have merit. Drupal should be Drupal, no matter what platform or server it runs on. JMHO. -Bryan
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:33:34 -0500 Bryan Ruby <bryan@cmsreport.com> wrote:
potential reasons for IIS gains against Apache). However, it's also important to realize that it's a lot easier to run PHP these days on IIS. Zend Technologies over the past year has made significant inroads to pushing PHP onto other platforms beyond LAMP. See: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2193783,00.asp
Sooner or later PHP will have a VM, JIT multithreading and a decent MS SQL connector faster on IIS than on Apache. Framework for having all that is already present in .NET and IIS. They also have IronPython... I'm really wondering what's going on... anyway there is some hope... once upon a long ago IIS was the leader in serving ssl content... -- Ivan Sergio Borgonovo http://www.webthatworks.it
The subject of this thread isn't "Does IIS suck?" it is "What is a critical issue". Just saying. =)
And the issue isn't does Windows suck either. I certainly run my sites on Windows Server 2003 and it functions quite nicely thankyouverymuch. I agree. Others technical needs, experiences and bias' aren't really for this thread. On 10/19/07, Earl Miles <merlin@logrus.com> wrote:
The subject of this thread isn't "Does IIS suck?" it is "What is a critical issue".
Just saying. =)
participants (14)
-
Bryan Ruby -
Colan Schwartz -
Daniel F. Kudwien -
Earl Miles -
Fernando Silva -
Greg Knaddison - GVS -
Gábor Hojtsy -
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo -
Karoly Negyesi -
Khalid Baheyeldin -
Larry Garfield -
Sean Robertson -
Steven Peck -
Tomas J. Fulopp