Is there anyone else worried that the Drupal folder structure encourages users to drop modules or themes into the wrong place? Wouldn't you like to have a folder structure that separates core from the rest of the customizable sites folder? As this issue could blow up in the issue que (http://drupal.org/node/22336) perhaps a short discourse on the mailing list is in order. It's weird that we all care so much about coding standards and yet we let our folder structure look so thrown together. Perhaps I'm wrong. I have feeling the real reason we are putting up with such a confusing structure is that moving files can introduce a big wtf and some might think we should leave it well enough alone. On the other hand, I believe it's broken and not at all grokable for 100% of the newbies. For fun, here is D7's folder structure as it stands from drupal.org project packager (not cvs) five minutes ago: includes/ misc/ modules/ profiles/ scripts/ sites/ themes/ .htaccess CHANGELOG.txt COPYRIGHT.txt INSTALL.mysql.txt INSTALL.pgsql.txt INSTALL.txt LICENSE.txt MAINTAINERS.txt UPGRADE.txt authorize.php cron.php index.php install.php robots.txt update.php xmlrpc.php Thoughts and comments are very much appreciated and encouraged. Josh _____________________________________ Josh Miller Web / Technology Director Haan Marketing + Communications http://www.haanmc.com/ 123 N. 8th Street, Lafayette, IN 47902-0350 T. 765.423.5470 F. 765-742-2881
On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Josh Miller wrote:
Is there anyone else worried that the Drupal folder structure encourages users to drop modules or themes into the wrong place? Wouldn't you like to have a folder structure that separates core from the rest of the customizable sites folder?
As this issue could blow up in the issue que (http://drupal.org/node/22336 ) perhaps a short discourse on the mailing list is in order. It's weird that we all care so much about coding standards and yet we let our folder structure look so thrown together.
Perhaps I'm wrong. I have feeling the real reason we are putting up with such a confusing structure is that moving files can introduce a big wtf and some might think we should leave it well enough alone. On the other hand, I believe it's broken and not at all grokable for 100% of the newbies.
I'm all for moving the core modules into /core/modules, themes into / core/themes (or anything equivalent) in D8. It seems way too late for D7. What we could do in the immediate is put a text file DONTTOUCH.txt or whatever in those folders, with instructions on what users should actually be doing. On a related note, some modules encourage users to place custom code or plugin modules into [module folder]/modules, which is bad because they can easily be deleted when the main module is updated. I think we should discourage this. - Ken Winters
i don't see what you are posting is a major issue. any user who is going to deploy drupal application should a have a minimum technical level to be able to read the basic insatallation step of a module Charbel Khadra charbel@ebizproduction.com www.ebizproduction.com On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Ken Winters <kwinters@coalmarch.com> wrote:
On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Josh Miller wrote:
Is there anyone else worried that the Drupal folder structure encourages users to drop modules or themes into the wrong place? Wouldn't you like to have a folder structure that separates core from the rest of the customizable sites folder?
As this issue could blow up in the issue que (http://drupal.org/node/22336) perhaps a short discourse on the mailing list is in order. It's weird that we all care so much about coding standards and yet we let our folder structure look so thrown together.
Perhaps I'm wrong. I have feeling the real reason we are putting up with such a confusing structure is that moving files can introduce a big wtf and some might think we should leave it well enough alone. On the other hand, I believe it's broken and not at all grokable for 100% of the newbies.
I'm all for moving the core modules into /core/modules, themes into /core/themes (or anything equivalent) in D8. It seems way too late for D7.
What we could do in the immediate is put a text file DONTTOUCH.txt or whatever in those folders, with instructions on what users should actually be doing.
On a related note, some modules encourage users to place custom code or plugin modules into [module folder]/modules, which is bad because they can easily be deleted when the main module is updated. I think we should discourage this.
- Ken Winters
Charbel, As I recall from over a year ago, my first two Drupal sites had custom and contrib modules in the /modules/ folder. Then I had to upgrade and it was very painful. I'm sure there are other devs out there that have similar stories. My point is that we shouldn't *have* to document, it should be *very apparent* where things go. On a side note, this is definitely a D8 discussion. Josh From: development-bounces@drupal.org [mailto:development-bounces@drupal.org] On Behalf Of Charbel Khadra Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:45 AM To: development@drupal.org Subject: Re: [development] Drupal Folder Structure i don't see what you are posting is a major issue. any user who is going to deploy drupal application should a have a minimum technical level to be able to read the basic insatallation step of a module Charbel Khadra charbel@ebizproduction.com www.ebizproduction.com On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Ken Winters <kwinters@coalmarch.com> wrote: On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Josh Miller wrote: Is there anyone else worried that the Drupal folder structure encourages users to drop modules or themes into the wrong place? Wouldn't you like to have a folder structure that separates core from the rest of the customizable sites folder? As this issue could blow up in the issue que (http://drupal.org/node/22336) perhaps a short discourse on the mailing list is in order. It's weird that we all care so much about coding standards and yet we let our folder structure look so thrown together. Perhaps I'm wrong. I have feeling the real reason we are putting up with such a confusing structure is that moving files can introduce a big wtf and some might think we should leave it well enough alone. On the other hand, I believe it's broken and not at all grokable for 100% of the newbies. I'm all for moving the core modules into /core/modules, themes into /core/themes (or anything equivalent) in D8. It seems way too late for D7. What we could do in the immediate is put a text file DONTTOUCH.txt or whatever in those folders, with instructions on what users should actually be doing. On a related note, some modules encourage users to place custom code or plugin modules into [module folder]/modules, which is bad because they can easily be deleted when the main module is updated. I think we should discourage this. - Ken Winters
I second this idea. I've had to clean up several installs that had all contrib modules installed in the /modules folder. I even had someone so confused that they copied the core modules into the sites/all/modules folder. I'm personally in favor of a very simple two folder structure at the root level. Something like do_not_touch (think core) and safe_to_edit (think contrib or sites). Then inside those folders could be our current structure or even an improved one. -- antgiant On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Josh Miller <JoshM@haanmc.com> wrote:
Charbel,
As I recall from over a year ago, my first two Drupal sites had custom and contrib modules in the /modules/ folder. Then I had to upgrade and it was very painful. I'm sure there are other devs out there that have similar stories. My point is that we shouldn't **have** to document, it should be **very apparent** where things go.
On a side note, this is definitely a D8 discussion.
Josh
*From:* development-bounces@drupal.org [mailto: development-bounces@drupal.org] *On Behalf Of *Charbel Khadra *Sent:* Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:45 AM *To:* development@drupal.org *Subject:* Re: [development] Drupal Folder Structure
i don't see what you are posting is a major issue. any user who is going to deploy drupal application should a have a minimum technical level to be able to read the basic insatallation step of a module
Charbel Khadra charbel@ebizproduction.com www.ebizproduction.com
On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Ken Winters <kwinters@coalmarch.com> wrote:
On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Josh Miller wrote:
Is there anyone else worried that the Drupal folder structure encourages users to drop modules or themes into the wrong place? Wouldn't you like to have a folder structure that separates core from the rest of the customizable sites folder?
As this issue could blow up in the issue que (http://drupal.org/node/22336) perhaps a short discourse on the mailing list is in order. It's weird that we all care so much about coding standards and yet we let our folder structure look so thrown together.
Perhaps I'm wrong. I have feeling the real reason we are putting up with such a confusing structure is that moving files can introduce a big wtf and some might think we should leave it well enough alone. On the other hand, I believe it's broken and not at all grokable for 100% of the newbies.
I'm all for moving the core modules into /core/modules, themes into /core/themes (or anything equivalent) in D8. It seems way too late for D7.
What we could do in the immediate is put a text file DONTTOUCH.txt or whatever in those folders, with instructions on what users should actually be doing.
On a related note, some modules encourage users to place custom code or plugin modules into [module folder]/modules,
which is bad because they can easily be deleted when the main module is updated. I think we should discourage this.
- Ken Winters
I would agree. It's not incredibly apparent to a new user that they need to create different modules and theme directories in the various sites folders when they install Drupal. If we are trying to advance the project to the next level then this should definitely be something we look at. I think Kens idea of creating /core/modules and /core/themes is a good idea. In addition why not just remove the sites/all folder and by default use /themes and /modules as the equivalent of /sites/all. That's more intuitive to someone who has no idea about Drupals multisite capabilities. I think that would make it easier for first time users to set up and use Drupal, which is one of our objectives for making Drupal the best CMS out there. ----- Adam A. Gregory Blog: AdamAGregory.com Twitter: twitter.com/adamgregory Skype: aagregory2 Cell: 706.761.7375 On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Josh Miller <JoshM@haanmc.com> wrote:
Charbel,
As I recall from over a year ago, my first two Drupal sites had custom and contrib modules in the /modules/ folder. Then I had to upgrade and it was very painful. I'm sure there are other devs out there that have similar stories. My point is that we shouldn't **have** to document, it should be **very apparent** where things go.
On a side note, this is definitely a D8 discussion.
Josh
*From:* development-bounces@drupal.org [mailto: development-bounces@drupal.org] *On Behalf Of *Charbel Khadra *Sent:* Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:45 AM *To:* development@drupal.org *Subject:* Re: [development] Drupal Folder Structure
i don't see what you are posting is a major issue. any user who is going to deploy drupal application should a have a minimum technical level to be able to read the basic insatallation step of a module
Charbel Khadra charbel@ebizproduction.com www.ebizproduction.com
On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Ken Winters <kwinters@coalmarch.com> wrote:
On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Josh Miller wrote:
Is there anyone else worried that the Drupal folder structure encourages users to drop modules or themes into the wrong place? Wouldn't you like to have a folder structure that separates core from the rest of the customizable sites folder?
As this issue could blow up in the issue que (http://drupal.org/node/22336) perhaps a short discourse on the mailing list is in order. It's weird that we all care so much about coding standards and yet we let our folder structure look so thrown together.
Perhaps I'm wrong. I have feeling the real reason we are putting up with such a confusing structure is that moving files can introduce a big wtf and some might think we should leave it well enough alone. On the other hand, I believe it's broken and not at all grokable for 100% of the newbies.
I'm all for moving the core modules into /core/modules, themes into /core/themes (or anything equivalent) in D8. It seems way too late for D7.
What we could do in the immediate is put a text file DONTTOUCH.txt or whatever in those folders, with instructions on what users should actually be doing.
On a related note, some modules encourage users to place custom code or plugin modules into [module folder]/modules,
which is bad because they can easily be deleted when the main module is updated. I think we should discourage this.
- Ken Winters
If we move sites/all/modules to /modules people are never going to realize they can do sites/mysite.com/modules. Then it doesn't also fit into the standard paths for other things like sites/all/libraries and sites/all/images, etc. In all honesty people are going to not read documentation and hunt for where to install their modules. People will still find /core/modules and put contrib modules there anyway. How this is solved is via the new module install interface in D7 and being able to select modules to include when downloading from drupal.org so it automatically packages things correctly. Dave Reid dave@davereid.net On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 8:59 AM, Adam Gregory <arcaneadam@gmail.com> wrote:
I would agree. It's not incredibly apparent to a new user that they need to create different modules and theme directories in the various sites folders when they install Drupal. If we are trying to advance the project to the next level then this should definitely be something we look at. I think Kens idea of creating /core/modules and /core/themes is a good idea. In addition why not just remove the sites/all folder and by default use /themes and /modules as the equivalent of /sites/all. That's more intuitive to someone who has no idea about Drupals multisite capabilities. I think that would make it easier for first time users to set up and use Drupal, which is one of our objectives for making Drupal the best CMS out there.
----- Adam A. Gregory Blog: AdamAGregory.com Twitter: twitter.com/adamgregory Skype: aagregory2 Cell: 706.761.7375
Dave, Here's another reason to move things into a folder called "core": People install this on a webserver, and while it makes sense that only Drupal would be installed on there, it most likely is not the only player. It can feel like a spaghetti bowl knot when dealing with over 10 different core folders that are named unambiguous things like "includes" and "misc." Perhaps we need to rename "sites" to be "config" -- to me that instantly separates the configuration and confusion of using "core/modules." Besides, think of how well we've *already* documented "don't hack core." Josh If we move sites/all/modules to /modules people are never going to realize they can do sites/mysite.com/modules. Then it doesn't also fit into the standard paths for other things like sites/all/libraries and sites/all/images, etc. In all honesty people are going to not read documentation and hunt for where to install their modules. People will still find /core/modules and put contrib modules there anyway. How this is solved is via the new module install interface in D7 and being able to select modules to include when downloading from drupal.org so it automatically packages things correctly. Dave Reid dave@davereid.net
I have frequently thought there should be an easier solution to this. What I key into though, is that all these folders, regardless of location, are just called "modules" /modules, sites/all/modules, sites/sitename/modules I even have one site (not my doing) with a sites/all/modules/custom/modules/ It seems to me that we should have three separate names for three separate concepts of accessibility. /core_modules /sites/all/universal_modules sites/default/local_modules Someone with better naming-sense then me should come up with those names, but just throwing the idea out there. -Sam On Nov 19, 2009, at 10:05 AM, Dave Reid wrote:
If we move sites/all/modules to /modules people are never going to realize they can do sites/mysite.com/modules. Then it doesn't also fit into the standard paths for other things like sites/all/ libraries and sites/all/images, etc. In all honesty people are going to not read documentation and hunt for where to install their modules. People will still find /core/modules and put contrib modules there anyway. How this is solved is via the new module install interface in D7 and being able to select modules to include when downloading from drupal.org so it automatically packages things correctly.
Dave Reid dave@davereid.net
On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 8:59 AM, Adam Gregory <arcaneadam@gmail.com> wrote: I would agree. It's not incredibly apparent to a new user that they need to create different modules and theme directories in the various sites folders when they install Drupal. If we are trying to advance the project to the next level then this should definitely be something we look at. I think Kens idea of creating /core/modules and /core/themes is a good idea. In addition why not just remove the sites/all folder and by default use /themes and /modules as the equivalent of /sites/all. That's more intuitive to someone who has no idea about Drupals multisite capabilities. I think that would make it easier for first time users to set up and use Drupal, which is one of our objectives for making Drupal the best CMS out there.
----- Adam A. Gregory Blog: AdamAGregory.com Twitter: twitter.com/adamgregory Skype: aagregory2 Cell: 706.761.7375
There are two problems: * The intuitive action (putting modules in the modules folder) is opposite of the correct behavior. * Module install instructions encourage bad behavior (nesting). It's not a major issue, but it is a usability issue and it's entirely fixable. - Ken Winters On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Charbel Khadra wrote:
i don't see what you are posting is a major issue. any user who is going to deploy drupal application should a have a minimum technical level to be able to read the basic insatallation step of a module
Charbel Khadra charbel@ebizproduction.com www.ebizproduction.com
On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Ken Winters <kwinters@coalmarch.com> wrote:
On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Josh Miller wrote:
Is there anyone else worried that the Drupal folder structure encourages users to drop modules or themes into the wrong place? Wouldn't you like to have a folder structure that separates core from the rest of the customizable sites folder?
As this issue could blow up in the issue que (http://drupal.org/node/22336 ) perhaps a short discourse on the mailing list is in order. It's weird that we all care so much about coding standards and yet we let our folder structure look so thrown together.
Perhaps I'm wrong. I have feeling the real reason we are putting up with such a confusing structure is that moving files can introduce a big wtf and some might think we should leave it well enough alone. On the other hand, I believe it's broken and not at all grokable for 100% of the newbies.
I'm all for moving the core modules into /core/modules, themes into / core/themes (or anything equivalent) in D8. It seems way too late for D7.
What we could do in the immediate is put a text file DONTTOUCH.txt or whatever in those folders, with instructions on what users should actually be doing.
On a related note, some modules encourage users to place custom code or plugin modules into [module folder]/modules, which is bad because they can easily be deleted when the main module is updated. I think we should discourage this.
- Ken Winters
Josh Miller wrote:
Is there anyone else worried that the Drupal folder structure encourages users to drop modules or themes into the wrong place? Wouldn't you like to have a folder structure that separates core from the rest of the customizable sites folder?
This discussion has been had in the issue queue: http://drupal.org/node/523934 (That's just one, it's been marked dup of another, I think, though it was barely a dup)
Earl, Wow! I love your proposal! As such a prominent figure, I wish you would move your original proposal to http://drupal.org/node/22336 (Everyone so far has agreed to /core/, no one has thought to break up /misc/) Please, this idea is not dead -- its just simply a hard thing to make happen. Perhaps not for D7, but for D8. Josh -----Original Message----- From: development-bounces@drupal.org [mailto:development-bounces@drupal.org] On Behalf Of Earl Miles Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 10:46 AM To: development@drupal.org Subject: Re: [development] Drupal Folder Structure Josh Miller wrote:
Is there anyone else worried that the Drupal folder structure encourages users to drop modules or themes into the wrong place? Wouldn't you like to have a folder structure that separates core from the rest of the customizable sites folder?
This discussion has been had in the issue queue: http://drupal.org/node/523934 (That's just one, it's been marked dup of another, I think, though it was barely a dup)
On Nov 19, 2009, at 8:15 AM, Josh Miller wrote:
As this issue could blow up in the issue que (http://drupal.org/node/22336 ) perhaps a short discourse on the mailing list is in order.
I don't see any benefit to forking the conversation and having some of the discussion in the issue and some other (most of it duplicate) discussion on this mailing list. If people care about this topic, they should read the issue closely, and if they have anything new to add to the discussion, post it there. That way, the whole debate is happening in one place and people don't have to repeat themselves. Thanks, -Derek (dww)
participants (9)
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Adam Gregory -
antgiant -
Charbel Khadra -
Dave Reid -
Derek Wright -
Earl Miles -
Josh Miller -
Ken Winters -
Sam Tresler