Issue status update for http://drupal.org/node/11623 Post a follow up: http://drupal.org/project/comments/add/11623 Project: Drupal Version: cvs Component: base system Category: feature requests Priority: normal Assigned to: pancho Reported by: Goba Updated by: Bèr Kessels Status: patch +1 for the idea. +1 for the implementation. The idea is simple: just pull the format string trough the locales. No new interfaces (+1), no new configuration options (+1) and no additional cruft. po files will then take care of the real format. However, I see one issue: we should remove the dopdowns in /admin/settings. The patch still applies. Bèr Kessels Previous comments: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fri, 15 Oct 2004 18:52:24 +0000 : Goba Attachment: http://drupal.org/files/issues/Drupal-translate-date-formats.patch (1.99 KB) Currently if I set a date format for the site, then it will be used with all interface translations. Different languages however have different needs when presenting dates. The Hungarian date format does not allow the day name to be the first and it calls for a dot between the hour and minute (yes, a dot not a colon). This means that Drupal ships with no suitable date format for Hungarians. Also none of the Hungarian date formats will be suitable on an English interface, while none of the English date formats are acceptable on a Hungarian interface on a bilingual site. The only option is to make date formats translateable. Since these are dynamic t() calls, extractor.php needs to be extended to include the date formats shipped with drupal in the pot output, so translators will get them (much like we do for some numbers and day names). I will take care of extending extractor.php, once this patch gets applied. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:00:27 +0000 : Goba Attachment: http://drupal.org/files/issues/Drupal-translate-date-formats_0.patch (1.99 KB) Well, the t() needs to be called on the date format set by the admin, so I needed to fix three t() calls. Updated patch attached. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:01:56 +0000 : killes@www.drop.org *g* I recall that there was a time when you didn't like this approach. Anyway, I fully endorse it and would like to see it in 4.5. There is also no suitable data format for German in core. And yes, that's a bug not a feature request. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:05:33 +0000 : Goba Yes, I didn't like it, because these are dynamic t()s. But since the selected format always needs to be presented in the actual language, it needs to be dynamic by nature. We have some of these dynamic t()s already, handled specially in extractor.php. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:07:29 +0000 : Steven I like this idea a lot, but I don't like the simplistic "wrap it all in t" feature. There are instances where format_date output is intended for script output. Changing those date formats would mean a bug in the code or UI (for example the way a node date is specified and parsed). Only those strings that are intended for user consumption should be translated. That's why I think we need a more specialized date handling component. It would deal with stuff like variations ('show hour/hide hour'), long/short variations (we need to review the usage of small/medium/long), as well as localizing them. We would need to revise the formats shipped with Drupal, but this gets tricky. For example would we only ship US-style AM/PM date formats with core? Should we only have M/D/Y ordering, or also D/M/Y ordering? If we move the time format settings to locale (where they do below, in principle) we might get a drop in usability: moving from a simple selection box, to requiring the whole localisation framework 'just to switch from 12 hours to 24 hours'. In some parts of the world, there is only one format for dates (e.g. chinese/japanese 2004年10月16日 1時00分). For them, the only variations are long vs short (whether to show the year, the time, etc), in other parts of the world all bets are off and people use what they like. This would mean that if we provide a default set of formats, and let them be translated through PO files, some languages might require more items than provided and some languages would have to use duplicates to fill all available options. On top of that, there is no guarantee that format #3 in French matches format #3 in German, so you'd need to be able to specify this per language. Ideally, we would let a language define any number of date formats, and let the user choose one of those per language. We could also provide a custom option where you enter your own date format, for the realy picky ones. The question remains: what do we do for sites without locale enabled? We can't go to requiring locale just to switch the date on a non-localized site. In that case, perhaps we could do this: - Have locale.module deal with date formats when it is enabled. Have a per-language format setting, selected from a language-specific, po-defined date format list. - Have system.module implement a 'localization' admin menu item if locale.module is /not/ enabled. This page carries the old selector, which acts like a simplified version of locale's format selector, with the list we current have in Drupal (i.e. variations of 24/12hours, d/m/y, y/m/d, m/d/y, ...). To prevent confusion, we add a link to system.module's version of the localization page, which instructs users to enable locale.module for full localization abilities). I know it sounds a bit weird (we certainly don't do this anywhere else), but it would be consistent in terms of UI (the date format is "localization" no matter how you look at it) and keep both non-localized site admins and localized site admins happy, without sacrificing too much ease of set up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sat, 16 Oct 2004 09:34:09 +0000 : Goba Steven, you say: "/There are instances where format_date output is intended for script output. Changing those date formats would mean a bug in the code or UI/ " But the current approach is to translate the month and day names in every case, so format_date **already** assumes that the date it outputs is for human consumption and not for machines. So changing the order of the fields in user date formats should not hurt. Sure it might not be a useability dream, but it does not hurt. By the way, adjusting date formats based on user language is only a small piece of localisation not covered by Drupal core yet. I need to use one mission statement and site name in all languages, and even my primary and secondary links need to have the same text in all site languages, since they are not translateable. If we are about to find a generic solution for locale covered settings, we need to take these into account too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:10:44 +0000 : Steven ""so format_date *already* assumes that the date it outputs is for human consumption and not for machines." " What I mean is changing the placement of the date components (day, month, year). For numerical dates which are parsed by a program, this will introduce bugs. I'd much rather have a cleaner date format selection method integrated with locale. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:19:01 +0000 : Goba Steven, the custom date formats are not translated, only those selected by the admin. And the admin can select date types with spelled out month/day names at any level, so they are not machine parsable anyway in the current Drupal version. **This patch does not introduce bugs.** I admit it does not look good, but there is no system for locale dependant admin settings yet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:05:28 +0000 : Steven I'm saying we do need such a system. With your patch, the format that the admin selects in language A will not necessarily match the one in language B. We should go for locale-defined formats with a locale-neutral list to fallback on. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:55:22 +0000 : pancho Attachment: http://drupal.org/files/issues/dateformat.patch.zip (14.91 KB) ************************ DATEFORMAT-PATCH PACKAGE ************************ by pancho@suenderhauf.net 2005-03-13 03:07 This 'DateFormat' patch package only works with the latest CVS version of Drupal 4.60 RC. This 'DateFormat' patch package applies the following changes: 1. It introduces a more flexible system of standard date and time formats which helps both users and developers while staying backwards-compatible. We often see special date formats be used in modules, which is only second best, as these can neither be adapted by the user nor localized. More flexibility allows the developers to use the built-in format functions wherever possible. Changes in detail: - The standard date formats used to be combined date&time-formats. This is now split into separate date formats and time formats, to allow dates and times to be rendered in a more flexible way. - Still it's backward compatible: the combined formats - while deprecated - still exist. - A "Tiny" format is added to the "Small", "Medium" and "Large" formats. 2. It enables Drupal to show e.g. German and Hungarian date formats (with a colon as separator), which was _not_ possible before. 3. It prepares both the Drupal system and module developers for the upcoming locale_dateformat module. This module will fully localize date and time formats according to the localization of the current user. The locale_dateformat module will be available within the next weeks. I'm always happy about suggestions and criticism, if constructive. You can either write a comment on www.cvs.net or an email to pancho@suenderhauf.net. Bye, Pancho ------------- INSTALLATION: ------------- The package contains two patches for the latest CVS versions of Drupal 4.60 RC, both of which should be applied: 1. common.inc (patch for v.1.429) 2. system.module (patch for v.1.197) There are no changes in database structure. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:59:33 +0000 : pancho P.S. What the hell did I write about www.cvs.net? No, what I meant was of course www.drupal.org (here), where you can write a comment! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:08:35 +0000 : pancho I feel better if I refile the thread as a feature request. The only thing you could describe as a bug was that German & Hungarian date formats were not supported. The rest are definitely feature improvements. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:38:02 +0000 : Steven - Localizing date formats seems like something that should be solved properly in core once and tied into locale.module. We need a solution which does not pose problems with mixing languages, and which does not require us to keep adding more and more date formats to the list (e.g. what about asian date formats? They don't have spaces.) Your "if (!module_exist('locale_dateformat'))" solution is unacceptable for core. - What's the point of the 'tiny' date format if it's not used anywhere? Where would it be used? - Please don't post patches as zips, this is annoying. Just make one global patch file instead of separate ones. Multiple files can be posted with multiple follow ups. - You need to see how this affects the date usage around Drupal, e.g. the profile date field formatting, which depends on the date format being in a specific format. - Code style: check spaces around quotes. Also, avoid trailing spaces on lines, this is untidy. - This issue is not "critical" IMO. It is a new feature request, and as such should probably wait until after 4.6, as 4.6 is in feature freeze. - The apostrophes around the separator item seem a bit unnecessary. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:08:34 +0000 : pancho */First of all: This patch works! Even it may be not yet ready to be adopted in the core, it is good for individual use./* To Steven: Okay, Steven, I was asking for criticism... :) With some of the points you make I can agree: - This feature should be completely and properly rewritten and not just fixed to have a good solution for a longer period and not only for now. - The "if (!module_exist('locale_dateformat'))" solution is not good code style at least for core, as well as the spaces. I didn't take enough care about that, as I wanted to present a solution now, before the release of 4.6. - Sorry about the zipped patches. I didn't expect it to bother anyone. But on the other hand: - It's not about adding more and more date formats. You will agree that the German web is a big enough market which should not be left aside anymore. Therefore the feature request /is critical/ from my perspective at least. And the solution I presented doesn't blow up the date format lists, in the contrary it makes them easier to use. - How can you complain about the tiny version not to be used. If it doesn't exist it /can't be used/. - The apostrophees do make sense, because the separator can also be a single space. Nobody would identify that in the menu without apostrophees. So you were critizising some points which I will fix in a new version of the patch as soon as possible. But you didn't say anything about the split of date and time formats. To me it makes sense, as there have already been more people asking for "just date" or "just time". While I already started the development of a "locale_dateformat.module", I will put this on hold, until we figured out a good solution altogether. Anyway, I'm ready to help developing this feature within "locale.module" if I'm being asked. Otherwise developing a separate module would at least offer the so needed functionality /within this century/ ;-) Pancho ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:50:14 +0000 : Steven Firstly: "Even it may be not yet ready to be adopted in the core, it is good for individual use. " The patch queue is really part of the Drupal development process. It does not help us much to work on patches that are not intended for core. "It's not about adding more and more date formats. You will agree that the German web is a big enough market which should not be left aside anymore. Therefore the feature request is critical from my perspective at least. And the solution I presented doesn't blow up the date format lists, in the contrary it makes them easier to use. " I'm just saying, that solutions like the German date format (which has a special notation for the day numbers) or Asian formats (which have no spaces and reversed order) should really be handled through locale IMO, where date formats are picked per language, and can be added manually or through .po files. "How can you complain about the tiny version not to be used. If it doesn't exist it can't be used. " I imagine you introduced this format for a reason, no? Adding new features without knowing exactly where they should be used is silly. If you add a new feature in a patch, you should put in the work to see that this feature is actually used. I didn't really talk about splitting date/time formats for now, as it is mostly a usability thing. I'd much rather wait for a solution integrated with locale before I comment on it.