Hi, Derek nicely summed up: Either: 1) #drupal-support should be closed and #drupal repurposed to be the support room. 2) #drupal should be a level of indirection (as per my original email in this thread 3) #drupal can remain in whatever weird, intermediary state it's in now. 3) is undesireable. 1) is also undesireable I believe because people will have harder time finding the dev channel, the theme channel, the whatever. The announcement should actually encourage them to lurk in #drupal-dev and ask devel questions there. I always found it baffling that support deals with coding as well. This leaves 2) Unless I get *very* convincing arguments against it, I will act on that. Given the activity of the room and my time to code just a bot based on bot module, let's call the day next Monday. Kind regards, NK
I really do think that choice # 1 is the way to go: 1. It's the standard way channel naming is handled on IRC
is also undesireable I believe because people will have harder time finding the dev channel, the theme channel, the whatever
2. Developers, themers and any drupal gurus are not the problem here, they will know where they need to go to get things done, the problem is with newbs, they expect #drupal to be a support channel, by all means, let it be. Making #drupal an intermediary channel will NOT make it any easier to find things. The whole point here is that people who want support are going to #drupal and missing #drupal-support. 3. If the bot will redirect only to support, it's a useless redirection, if it has to choose where to redirect, then how smart can a bot be :) I really think that by making #drupal the support channel instead of #drupal-support the problem would be over. Developers and themers won't mistake #drupal for the development or the theming channels, and when newbs are well acquainted with Drupal, they will already know all the channels and will be able to find what they want when that time comes. AA On 8/1/07, Karoly Negyesi <karoly@negyesi.net> wrote:
Hi,
Derek nicely summed up:
Either:
1) #drupal-support should be closed and #drupal repurposed to be the support room. 2) #drupal should be a level of indirection (as per my original email in this thread 3) #drupal can remain in whatever weird, intermediary state it's in now.
3) is undesireable. 1) is also undesireable I believe because people will have harder time finding the dev channel, the theme channel, the whatever. The announcement
should actually encourage them to lurk in #drupal-dev and ask devel questions there. I always found it baffling that support deals with coding as well.
This leaves 2)
Unless I get *very* convincing arguments against it, I will act on that. Given the activity of the room and my time to code just a bot based on bot module, let's call the day next Monday.
Kind regards,
NK
I agree 100% with this comment - as a mater of fact, I've been advocating this approach for some time. There truly is no reason to believe that anyone who should want to find the devel and theme channels would be unable to do so, especially if we include them in the topic message for the support channel. I don't like the idea of using #drupal as some kind of redirect-only room - that just seems redundant to me. Leaving it as a support and general drupal channel would be ideal since ti's the channel most people will come to by default. More people equals more possibility that someone there will actually be able to help anyone asking questions. Currently, there really aren't enough people regularly hanging in #drupal-support to be able to do that effectively, so a LOT of questions just go unanswered. Ashraf Amayreh wrote:
I really do think that choice # 1 is the way to go:
1. It's the standard way channel naming is handled on IRC
is also undesireable I believe because people will have harder time finding the dev channel, the theme channel, the whatever
2. Developers, themers and any drupal gurus are not the problem here, they will know where they need to go to get things done, the problem is with newbs, they expect #drupal to be a support channel, by all means, let it be. Making #drupal an intermediary channel will NOT make it any easier to find things. The whole point here is that people who want support are going to #drupal and missing #drupal-support.
3. If the bot will redirect only to support, it's a useless redirection, if it has to choose where to redirect, then how smart can a bot be :)
I really think that by making #drupal the support channel instead of #drupal-support the problem would be over. Developers and themers won't mistake #drupal for the development or the theming channels, and when newbs are well acquainted with Drupal, they will already know all the channels and will be able to find what they want when that time comes.
AA
On 8/1/07, * Karoly Negyesi* <karoly@negyesi.net <mailto:karoly@negyesi.net>> wrote:
Hi,
Derek nicely summed up:
Either:
1) #drupal-support should be closed and #drupal repurposed to be the support room. 2) #drupal should be a level of indirection (as per my original email in this thread 3) #drupal can remain in whatever weird, intermediary state it's in now.
3) is undesireable. 1) is also undesireable I believe because people will have harder time finding the dev channel, the theme channel, the whatever. The announcement should actually encourage them to lurk in #drupal-dev and ask devel questions there. I always found it baffling that support deals with coding as well.
This leaves 2)
Unless I get *very* convincing arguments against it, I will act on that. Given the activity of the room and my time to code just a bot based on bot module, let's call the day next Monday.
Kind regards,
NK
-- Sean Robertson Web Developer NGP Software, Inc. seanr@ngpsoftware.com (202) 686-9330 http://www.ngpsoftware.com
On 7/31/07, Karoly Negyesi <karoly@negyesi.net> wrote:
1) #drupal-support should be closed and #drupal repurposed to be the support room. 2) #drupal should be a level of indirection (as per my original email in this thread
Did I miss that email? Can you link to it on the archives? 3) #drupal can remain in whatever weird, intermediary state it's in now.
3) is undesireable.
Agreed. 1) is also undesireable I believe because people will have harder time
finding the dev channel, the theme channel, the whatever. The announcement should actually encourage them to lurk in #drupal-dev and ask devel questions there. I always found it baffling that support deals with coding as well.
How is it harder now to find -theme or -dojo? All it takes is to add it on d.o (and g.d.o and whatever) where we list the IRC channels, and that is it. I think repurposing #drupal is the most obvious solution, and as others pointed out, look at #ubuntu and #gentoo and #debian ... This leaves 2)
Unless I get *very* convincing arguments against it, I will act on that. Given the activity of the room and my time to code just a bot based on bot module, let's call the day next Monday.
Not sure how this redirection works. -- 2bits.com http://2bits.com Drupal development, customization and consulting.
Not sure how this redirection works.
We set the channel +mz (soft moderation) so everything you say on #drupal goes to the channel operators instead of the channel itself. Druplicon, the bot will be opped and will automatically reply to everything you say with an autoreply "Please join to #drupal-dev to ask development question and listen what developers brew. In #drupal-support you will get friendly advice about non-development questions. #drupal-themes can help you with theming problems." and so on. No automatic redirection, just a friendly bot sending private messages to everyone trying to talk.
On 8/1/07, Karoly Negyesi <karoly@negyesi.net> wrote:
Not sure how this redirection works.
We set the channel +mz (soft moderation) so everything you say on #drupal goes to the channel operators instead of the channel itself. Druplicon, the bot will be opped and will automatically reply to everything you say with an autoreply "Please join to #drupal-dev to ask development question and listen what developers brew. In #drupal-support you will get friendly advice about non-development questions. #drupal-themes can help you with theming problems." and so on. No automatic redirection, just a friendly bot sending private messages to everyone trying to talk.
Seems worth trying. -- 2bits.com http://2bits.com Drupal development, customization and consulting.
On Tuesday 31 July 2007, Karoly Negyesi wrote:
Not sure how this redirection works.
We set the channel +mz (soft moderation) so everything you say on #drupal goes to the channel operators instead of the channel itself. Druplicon, the bot will be opped and will automatically reply to everything you say with an autoreply "Please join to #drupal-dev to ask development question and listen what developers brew. In #drupal-support you will get friendly advice about non-development questions. #drupal-themes can help you with theming problems." and so on. No automatic redirection, just a friendly bot sending private messages to everyone trying to talk.
I do not see any possible purpose making the main channel into a "stub" serves, other than being able to say "ha ha, we're not using #drupal as a support channel!" The devel channel is no easier or harder to find this way than putting a "go to -dev" message on join instead of a "go to -support" message. Developers are more likely to listen and remember than random people asking for support. (Which means we'd have to type "devel?" far less than we type "support?" :-) -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
I do not see any possible purpose making the main channel into a "stub" serves, other than being able to say "ha ha, we're not using #drupal as a support channel!"
I do, as Derek said: it hands you a map of the #drupal* channels to make it easier for you to find everything.
Why not just do that in the topic or have druplicon msg everyone who joins anyway without stopping conversation in that channel? You can do both here, it doesn't need to be an annoying unsuable stub to get what you want accomplished. Karoly Negyesi wrote:
I do not see any possible purpose making the main channel into a "stub" serves, other than being able to say "ha ha, we're not using #drupal as a support channel!"
I do, as Derek said: it hands you a map of the #drupal* channels to make it easier for you to find everything.
-- Sean Robertson Web Developer NGP Software, Inc. seanr@ngpsoftware.com (202) 686-9330 http://www.ngpsoftware.com
On 31-Jul-07, at 10:48 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote:
Hi,
Derek nicely summed up:
Either:
1) #drupal-support should be closed and #drupal repurposed to be the support room. 2) #drupal should be a level of indirection (as per my original email in this thread 3) #drupal can remain in whatever weird, intermediary state it's in now.
3) is undesireable. 1) is also undesireable I believe because people will have harder time finding the dev channel, the theme channel, the whatever. The announcement should actually encourage them to lurk in #drupal-dev and ask devel questions there. I always found it baffling that support deals with coding as well.
This leaves 2)
Unless I get *very* convincing arguments against it, I will act on that. Given the activity of the room and my time to code just a bot based on bot module, let's call the day next Monday.
If those are our options, then let's also throw in #4, proposed by Earl (I think?) on IRC earlier: that #drupal become just a general "anything goes" Drupal chat room, and we can refer people to #drupal- support or #drupal-dev if someone starts to monopolize the channel. Unless that's what #2 means... I don't seem to have that e-mail... but "indrection" sounds like you want the channel basically dead with sign posts leading to the various options. If so, I don't believe this is a desirable option, either. Btw, another reason #1 is undesirable is that there is a distinct lack of developers in #drupal-support. #drupal is the main channel that people will see, and it would be nice if there were a plethora of contributors in that channel to help new potential contributors get up to speed or to discuss new, cool things they're working on, etc. -Angie
Angela Byron wrote:
If those are our options, then let's also throw in #4, proposed by Earl (I think?) on IRC earlier: that #drupal become just a general "anything goes" Drupal chat room, and we can refer people to #drupal-support or #drupal-dev if someone starts to monopolize the channel. Unless that's what #2 means... I don't seem to have that e-mail... but "indrection" sounds like you want the channel basically dead with sign posts leading to the various options. If so, I don't believe this is a desirable option, either.
Btw, another reason #1 is undesirable is that there is a distinct lack of developers in #drupal-support. #drupal is the main channel that people will see, and it would be nice if there were a plethora of contributors in that channel to help new potential contributors get up to speed or to discuss new, cool things they're working on, etc.
I believe I'm generally in favor of this. At that point I personally would probably go in and out of the channel as I had free time and a desire to be generally social around Drupal, or to show stuff off to people who might be hanging around. I think people would feel comfortable just hanging out and absorbing there, and at the same time when I'm trying to get work done I can drop to just -dev and still interact with the usual IRC-enabled developers and have fewer distractions. I suspect the line between #drupal-support and #drupal would blur but it would also be very easy to take complex or annoying stuff and say "Let's take this to #drupal-support" which is very different from "Please let us alone, we're trying to get work done here." Then again, a channel with 300+ people on it has a way of just getting unruly.
Angela Byron wrote:
If those are our options, then let's also throw in #4, proposed by Earl (I think?) on IRC earlier: that #drupal become just a general "anything goes" Drupal chat room, and we can refer people to #drupal-support or #drupal-dev if someone starts to monopolize the channel. Unless that's what #2 means... I don't seem to have that e-mail... but "indrection" sounds like you want the channel basically dead with sign posts leading to the various options. If so, I don't believe this is a desirable option, either.
I like #4. There's a off-topic/social side to Drupal that I'd hate the squelch.
I like #4. There's a off-topic/social side to Drupal that I'd hate the squelch.
Totally. We happily socialize in #drupal-dev already. My understanding is that the reason to start that channel was to get rid of typing support?and seeing the 'buzz off' message, nothing else.
If those are our options, then let's also throw in #4, proposed by Earl (I think?) on IRC earlier: that #drupal become just a general "anything goes" Drupal chat room, and we can refer people to #drupal- support or #drupal-dev if someone starts to monopolize the channel.
Um, isn't that the exact state of where we are now?
On 1-Aug-07, at 1:41 AM, Karoly Negyesi wrote:
If those are our options, then let's also throw in #4, proposed by Earl (I think?) on IRC earlier: that #drupal become just a general "anything goes" Drupal chat room, and we can refer people to #drupal- support or #drupal-dev if someone starts to monopolize the channel.
Um, isn't that the exact state of where we are now?
No. Right now we're in a state where half the developers are in #drupal-dev, half the developers are in #drupal, there is mass confusion about what is on topic and off topic in #drupal, etc. If you're intending to set down some guidelines, then we could do #4 in a more structured, "official" way. -Angie
On 01 Aug 2007, at 04:48, Karoly Negyesi wrote:
1) #drupal-support should be closed and #drupal repurposed to be the support room. 2) #drupal should be a level of indirection (as per my original email in this thread 3) #drupal can remain in whatever weird, intermediary state it's in now.
This leaves 2)
I haven't read up on the entire thread yet -- I usually don't have the time to hang out on IRC so it doesn't really affect me. Either way, I think (2) is a weak compromise. I'm all for making #drupal the de facto support channel, and moving all development issues to #drupal-dev. That looks like IRC usability 101? For me, it's not a big deal to type #drupal-dev instead of #drupal. Personally, I don't care whether I have to join #drupal or #drupal- dev. However, I do care about our users, and them being able to find support with minimal barriers. There was a time where drupal.org was _only_ for developers too. Then users started coming in, and we had to adapt to that as well. There seems to be a solid case for breaking backward compatibility, and changing our IRC APIs for the better. ;-) -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
On 01 Aug 2007, at 04:48, Karoly Negyesi wrote:
1) #drupal-support should be closed and #drupal repurposed to be the support room. 2) #drupal should be a level of indirection (as per my original email in this thread 3) #drupal can remain in whatever weird, intermediary state it's in now.
This leaves 2)
I haven't read up on the entire thread yet -- I usually don't have the time to hang out on IRC so it doesn't really affect me.
Either way, I think (2) is a weak compromise. I'm all for making #drupal the de facto support channel, and moving all development issues to #drupal-dev. That looks like IRC usability 101? For me, it's not a big deal to type #drupal-dev instead of #drupal.
Personally, I don't care whether I have to join #drupal or #drupal- dev. However, I do care about our users, and them being able to find support with minimal barriers.
There was a time where drupal.org was _only_ for developers too. Then users started coming in, and we had to adapt to that as well. There seems to be a solid case for breaking backward compatibility, and changing our IRC APIs for the better. ;-)
But we always provided a guidance to update and #2 is just that :)
Either way, I think (2) is a weak compromise. I'm all for making #drupal the de facto support channel, and moving all development issues to #drupal-dev.
So my primary concern over this was, how will people find the other channels without the supporters in #drupal telling them. One way would be that if you join #drupal the bot messages you with instructions just as in my original plan but if you answer something to the bot indicating you got the message about the 'house rules' whatever they will be, you will be voiced on #drupal -- thus we can use #drupal as a channel AND give people the guidance about various channels. How does this look?
On 01 Aug 2007, at 09:11, Karoly Negyesi wrote:
Either way, I think (2) is a weak compromise. I'm all for making #drupal the de facto support channel, and moving all development issues to #drupal-dev.
So my primary concern over this was, how will people find the other channels without the supporters in #drupal telling them. One way would be that if you join #drupal the bot messages you with instructions just as in my original plan but if you answer something to the bot indicating you got the message about the 'house rules' whatever they will be, you will be voiced on #drupal -- thus we can use #drupal as a channel AND give people the guidance about various channels. How does this look?
A "Do you agree with the terms of service?" popup message for an IRC channel? Help. Things like having to answer bot questions are simply to high of a barrier for many users. 95% of the people don't even know what an "IRC bot" is, or what it means to "being voiced" in an IRC channel. Also, having to maintain bots and making sure that they are always online seems like a source of frustration. Bots are nice, as long we don't have to rely on them. Why don't we just swap the channels and see how that goes? Scripted solutions need maintenance, availability and resources. I'd prefer to see all of that go into drupal.org instead but maybe I got my priorities wrong. ;-) Anyway, it looks like we're trying to solve a simple problem with a complex solution just so we can get a consensus that is still suboptimal for the vast majority of our users. Not sure I'm buying into that. -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
On 1-Aug-07, at 3:35 AM, Dries Buytaert wrote:
Why don't we just swap the channels and see how that goes? Scripted solutions need maintenance, availability and resources. I'd prefer to see all of that go into drupal.org instead but maybe I got my priorities wrong. ;-)
That's fine. Just realize that the natural consequence of this is that developers are probably going to leave #drupal and just hang out in #drupal-dev, the awesome stuff that our contributors are constantly doing will be shuffled away out of public view, we'll have fewer cross-overs of 'newbies' to 'contributors', and peoples' first impression to Drupal will be a room where people ask for help and receive no reply. This is why I think keeping #drupal-support for people who need/want to provide support and making #drupal a general chat is preferable to simply swapping #drupal and #drupal-support. But of course, whatever you decide is what we'll go with. Let me know and I'll make a front page post, and we can put this issue to rest once and for all. -Angie
The developers don't hang out in support as it is, and if they try to ask in #drupal now, they get yelled at (chx has even been known to kick people when they do it repeatedly). I have Chatzilla set up so that I auto-join all of the Drupal chatrooms when I start it, so I do lurk in #drupal-support and will occasionally answer questions as I am able (though I tend to focus mostly on #drupal). Personally I think a quiet channel is preferable to getting bitched at. ;-) Angela Byron wrote:
On 1-Aug-07, at 3:35 AM, Dries Buytaert wrote:
Why don't we just swap the channels and see how that goes? Scripted solutions need maintenance, availability and resources. I'd prefer to see all of that go into drupal.org instead but maybe I got my priorities wrong. ;-)
That's fine. Just realize that the natural consequence of this is that developers are probably going to leave #drupal and just hang out in #drupal-dev, the awesome stuff that our contributors are constantly doing will be shuffled away out of public view, we'll have fewer cross-overs of 'newbies' to 'contributors', and peoples' first impression to Drupal will be a room where people ask for help and receive no reply.
This is why I think keeping #drupal-support for people who need/want to provide support and making #drupal a general chat is preferable to simply swapping #drupal and #drupal-support. But of course, whatever you decide is what we'll go with. Let me know and I'll make a front page post, and we can put this issue to rest once and for all.
-Angie
-- Sean Robertson Web Developer NGP Software, Inc. seanr@ngpsoftware.com (202) 686-9330 http://www.ngpsoftware.com
On 8/1/07, Angela Byron <drupal-devel@webchick.net> wrote:
of course, whatever you decide is what we'll go with. Let me know and I'll make a front page post, and we can put this issue to rest once and for all.
Actually, that's not the way it works. Dries has already said that he doesn't really "hang out" in IRC much. I know I enjoy my time in #drupal when I have the spare cycles, but I sure as heck don't talk dev there. Also: why, exactly, does this need to be "resolved"? And: posting to d.o. will do...what? If there are handbook pages on IRC, update them. IRC is a convenience, but that's about it. * when busy, hang in #drupal-dev only * when not busy, online in #drupal as well -- Boris Mann Office 604-682-2889 Skype borismann http://www.bryght.com
Quick opinion, no thesis: #drupal to be like a hotel foyer --> open chat --> no rules other than common courtesy. --> bot info and sign-posts. --> "Is this a #drupal-dev or a #drupal-support question?" type questions. --> a great place for friendly drupal generalists. (me!) killes: I was intimidated for /months/ by #drupal. I hope you come to see these changes as beneficial. sime
+1 sime wrote:
Quick opinion, no thesis:
#drupal to be like a hotel foyer --> open chat --> no rules other than common courtesy. --> bot info and sign-posts. --> "Is this a #drupal-dev or a #drupal-support question?" type questions. --> a great place for friendly drupal generalists. (me!)
killes: I was intimidated for /months/ by #drupal. I hope you come to see these changes as beneficial.
sime
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 sime schrieb:
Quick opinion, no thesis:
#drupal to be like a hotel foyer --> open chat --> no rules other than common courtesy. --> bot info and sign-posts. --> "Is this a #drupal-dev or a #drupal-support question?" type questions. --> a great place for friendly drupal generalists. (me!)
killes: I was intimidated for /months/ by #drupal. I hope you come to see these changes as beneficial.
Right after I install Windows Vista. :) Cheers, Gerhard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGsKpHfg6TFvELooQRApuXAKDHRtehDazwRcdn/lemupV5F7RcpACgoQB8 7nNei7FRossk7zwCqn73Kco= =1gtV -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
As a Drupal newb who has been lurking on #drupal / #drupal-dev on and off for a while (my nick is heyrocker) I have read this whole thread and I'm still kind of confused by the purpose of this/these channel(s). The topic says "Drupal Development Chat", which I have always taken to mean development OF Drupal, as opposed to development WITH Drupal. Sitting on the channel bears this out, almost all the chat I've seen has been in relation to core and/or one of the major modules, almost all done by people with CVS accounts. However, I have seen a couple people in this thread mention that general development questions have a place in this channel. If true, I would like to see that be more specifically stated, as I have certainly had many of these over the last few months and been far too intimidated to peek my head into the #drupal waters. I don't really have an opinion as to what solution is best, except to agree with everyone that having development split into two channels is bad.
-----Original Message----- From: development-bounces@drupal.org [mailto:development-bounces@drupal.org] On Behalf Of sime Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:26 AM To: development@drupal.org Subject: Re: [development] channels
Quick opinion, no thesis:
#drupal to be like a hotel foyer --> open chat --> no rules other than common courtesy. --> bot info and sign-posts. --> "Is this a #drupal-dev or a #drupal-support question?" type questions. --> a great place for friendly drupal generalists. (me!)
killes: I was intimidated for /months/ by #drupal. I hope you come to see these changes as beneficial.
sime
It's in the topic and/or Druplicon sends them a welcome message when they join with that info. The shouldn't have to go to another channel if they don't need something more specific than basic drupal chat or support, though. You can easily do this without making a dead channel. Karoly Negyesi wrote:
Either way, I think (2) is a weak compromise. I'm all for making #drupal the de facto support channel, and moving all development issues to #drupal-dev.
So my primary concern over this was, how will people find the other channels without the supporters in #drupal telling them. One way would be that if you join #drupal the bot messages you with instructions just as in my original plan but if you answer something to the bot indicating you got the message about the 'house rules' whatever they will be, you will be voiced on #drupal -- thus we can use #drupal as a channel AND give people the guidance about various channels. How does this look?
-- Sean Robertson Web Developer NGP Software, Inc. seanr@ngpsoftware.com (202) 686-9330 http://www.ngpsoftware.com
participants (14)
-
Angela Byron -
Ashraf Amayreh -
Boris Mann -
David Strauss -
Dries Buytaert -
Earl Miles -
Gerhard Killesreiter -
Greg Dunlap -
Jonathan Hendler -
Karoly Negyesi -
Khalid Baheyeldin -
Larry Garfield -
Sean Robertson -
sime