RE: 5.0 and or 4.8 (was Re: [development] Drupal x.x.0 freeze date)
The 4.5 to 4.6 roadmap while interesting was in my opinion a fairly interesting boondoogle. Part was people ended up working on other things then they thought, either due to life, paying work or better/different ideas, some disappeared and some stuff just didn't get done. We got people who would look at the 'roadmap' and then chastise the dev community or rant using the roadmap as there justification. It was annoying. -sp
-----Original Message----- From: development-bounces@drupal.org [mailto:development-bounces@drupal.org] On Behalf Of Earl Miles Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 8:16 PM To: development@drupal.org; kb@2bits.com Subject: Re: 5.0 and or 4.8 (was Re: [development] Drupal x.x.0 freeze date)
Khalid B wrote:
It is fair, one can have ones own view of what they like or dislike without the concerns of others yet wishing others can help to test and comment on their pet features. It is pretty sad if this is the main stream thoughts from developers - I hope this is not the case. But of course, we all like no rules and no obligations ;-).
Jenny
This is Open Source development. It does not happen because corporate marketing mandates a feature, or someone up high in the hierarchy orders it down the command chain.
It is mainly a scratch your itch thing. Someone's itch may be something relating to a web site they own and run, another person's itch is their non- profit clients, yet another would be commercial clients, yet another would be scalability for a hosting provider, ...etc.
We cannot force everyone to a herd mentality or a hive mind. If others want a feature in, they write it, they lobby for it, they convince others of its value. I will only object if I see that this breaks something else, or is bloated, or whatever.
In my view, the features have to be the collective sum of pet features that people who chose to propose them and put the effort to make them happen.
So, it is not as pessimistic as you understood it to be, or as you may sound to you.
I do think that the one positive to the 'roadmap' argument is to put together what people are working on. Not so much a "This is waht will happen" but a projection of how things look now. Even with the knowledge that this isn't a promise, and is malleable, it can help people out by identifying areas that could use help, should someone wish to pitch in, and it can identify areas that are well covered so that people don't end up butting heads trying to scratch the same itch.
The issue here seems to be related to the way people look at roadmaps. In my opinion Drupal always has a roadmap, but not always very precisely communicated. Developers all know what they're doing right now, and in what direction things are going. Also most have an idea of time frame. I fully understand the hesitant developer who see a roadmap as more of a hindrance than a help. If somebody misunderstands what he's reading and start picking on the developer - then we're better off without it. But we all know that we also have a lot of people working on solutions for clients. Some of these people have no other way of know where things are going - than reading the developer list and listening in on the IRC channels. Maybe a very coarse grained roadmap - 5-6 bullet points - telling the general direction of Drupal - and perhaps only accessible to those who actually applied for it - would be the answer. It would sure help some consultants I know. :-) Here's what I envision: Roadmap alpha (you can't read it unless you've been allowed into the "roadmap" group) 4.8 (Minor release - tentatively scheduled for release on hte 1. of september 2006) Note: This release is for all the stuff we prepared during 4.7 development - and no really large new project will be allowed. Drupal will also prepare to become more of a "frame work" - splitting core into "framework" and "core modules". Planned for 4.8 1) xxx - doing this and that - good for this - anticipated timeframe: August 15. 2) yyy - bla bal - bla bla - anticipated timeframe: July 1. (update: delayed..) 3) zzz - bla bal - bal bla - you get the idea? 5.0 (Major release - not yet scheduled) Note: This release is meant to become the next major upgrade. It will include a couple of major new enhancements - but please be aware that ANY improvements can be delayed for a later version. Please don't plan on production sites with this one yet! 1) xxx - Views - Including the "Views" module into core, and making it replace some current core stuff. This is a priority. 2) yyy - CCK - Including CCK into core, and making it replace some core stuff. This is not a priority. 3) zzz - bla bla . you get the idea? I Hope that could be done, without being a pain in the a.. to anyone. Best Gunnar Langemark gunnar@langemark.com
gunnar wrote:
In my opinion Drupal always has a roadmap, but not always very precisely communicated. I'd like to suggest something a little less formal. A section in the newsletter, call it say 'grape vine', 'overheard', 'Crystal ball'[1] or whatever that looks at what *might* be coming - the point is it should be put across as 'rumors' and discussion, not something hard and fast. It would give a feel for whats coming to a wider audience than the relatively small crowd that hang out on irc.
The excellent Lullabot podcasts also do a good job with this sort of thing.
But we all know that we also have a lot of people working on solutions for clients. Some of these people have no other way of know where things are going - than reading the developer list and listening in on the IRC channels. That's all any of us can do surely? And really, anybody that has a serious interest in where Drupal is going should be getting involved with the community, and that means hanging out on irc, subscribing to mailing lists, reading the newsletter and listening to the podcasts.
The one caveat is time zones - it's hard for all those english speakers in Australia and New Zealand to be on irc at the same time as all the core developers in western Europe. [1] I put that one in just for chx :p -- Adrian Simmons (aka adrinux) <http://adrinux.perlucida.com> e-mail <mailto:adrinux@perlucida.com>
gunnar wrote:
In my opinion Drupal always has a roadmap, but not always very precisely communicated. I'd like to suggest something a little less formal. A section in the newsletter, call it say 'grape vine', 'overheard', 'Crystal ball'[1] or whatever that looks at what *might* be coming - the point is it
Good suggestion. Let's not pretend we have a real roadmap. I like the concept of a personal battleplan for each developer - like Dries is pushing. Maybe one of us could maintain a page/group summarizing some of this? (Pointing at myself??)
And really, anybody that has a serious interest in where Drupal is going should be getting involved with the community, and that means hanging out on irc, subscribing to mailing lists, reading the newsletter and listening to the podcasts.
You're so right. It should be mandatory, but the thing is - Drupal is now so HUGE, that I could spend 3-4 hours a day just to keep updated with all that happens. If everybody mailed me with their battle plans (or we made a group) - I could summarize - a "crystal ball" post once every month or so?? It would be my personal prediction, and NOT an official document. It would anger some people who would tend to think I was too pessimistic (which I'm not - I predicted a 4.7 launch date for late march to late april - back in november. But that was in private - and not in public) - I'm just old. ;-) Gunnar Langemark gunnar@langemark.com
On 5/2/06, Adrian Simmons <adrinux@perlucida.com> wrote:
gunnar wrote:
In my opinion Drupal always has a roadmap, but not always very precisely communicated. I'd like to suggest something a little less formal. A section in the newsletter, call it say 'grape vine', 'overheard', 'Crystal ball'[1] or whatever that looks at what *might* be coming - the point is it should be put across as 'rumors' and discussion, not something hard and fast. It would give a feel for whats coming to a wider audience than the relatively small crowd that hang out on irc.
When I saw the "predictions" thread that struck me as the ultimate in community roadmap system. Look at the people who made predictions last year that were right...those are people you should trust for predictions this year. Look at people who have said "I know this is going to happen in 2006 because I'm going to do it" and you can have some confidence in those predictions. But in the end, all roadmaps are just a grouping of predictions until they are committed, qa'd, documented, and released. Predictions for 2006: http://drupal.org/node/41966 Regards, Greg -- Greg Knaddison | Growing Venture Solutions Denver, CO | http://growingventuresolutions.com Technology Solutions for Communities, Individuals, and Small Businesses
participants (4)
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Adrian Simmons -
Greg Knaddison - GVS -
gunnar -
Steven Peck