Hi initiative owners, participants, and developers, I'd like to urge you to move more or ideally all conversations that are currently held in private into the public, to this list. Open brainstorming, roadmap and proposal-style discussions and conversations are actually what mailing lists still excel in. - Everyone can chime in. No one is excluded. - Threads and sub-topics can be spawned easily, at any time, and are still tracked by everyone. - Discussions don't need to be announced, the discussion is the announcement. It's debatable whether the Development list is suitable or whether there should be a separate list. However, a new list would require infrastructural changes and everyone to sign up, and regardless of whether that is going to happen, we have this list here, so let's use it. Background: I'm very concerned about the initial and ongoing communication regarding D8 initiatives. Major technical discussions happen completely in private among a few peers only. Concrete proposals are worked out in the dark, presented as semi-final to the community, often not including considerations that led to certain suggested parts/details in a proposal, leaving little room for actual, open, and friendly discussions. Lastly, without some form of public announcement (which varies these days given Twitter, mailing lists, d.o issues, etc), no one knows that a post exists somewhere in the first place. I'm personally trying hard to follow and track all initiative discussions, and I bet it's not only me. But given their diversity/location on d.o and g.d.o, g.d.o's extremely poor subscriptions system, and the fact that many details aren't discussed in the public in the first place, it's practically impossible to stay in the loop. Most of these private conversations happen in e-mails already. So it's merely a matter of changing the recipient for your next mail/reply. Please do so. I also bet that most discussions on g.d.o posts would've worked much better as mailing list threads. Of course, final conclusive summaries gathered from discussions still make sense to be posted and updated on d.o or g.d.o. But most of the discussions were held in free form, chaos style brainstorming, partially spawned into sub-discussions, so a mailing list thread would have worked way better for everyone, since no one needs to subscribe to track the details. Thanks, sun
Hi, Well, our current approach is to use g.d.o group posts in the Drupal Initiatives group that anyone can sign up for. The group is at http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives There are also calls every two weeks between the initiative owners, Dries, Angie, et. al. to hammer out the more pressing things and generally figure out the details that cannot be worked out in email our issue queues. Angie plans to write blog posts with reports on what's happening at these meetings (probably to be published in the drupal initiatives group linked above or maybe on her blog). I'm not sure the development list is a good medium for these discussions. On g.d.o you can selectively follow the specific groups set up for the work or follow the main group overall. More importantly you can go back and participate in discussions which started before you became a member or became aware of the initiative even. This does not work in emails. I'm probably of the more prolific writers among the initiative leads on that group, and while I'm not sure I could reach the whole audience I wanted to, I think the group posts help keep the discussion focused and open. Many of the people who commented there with valuable feedback I'm sure not even members of this list. Gábor
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Gábor Hojtsy <gabor@hojtsy.hu> wrote:
Well, our current approach is to use g.d.o group posts in the Drupal Initiatives group that anyone can sign up for. The group is at http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives
Yes and no. I agree with Daniel's concern that too much of this is happening in closed venues, often with the claim that it's the only way to get things done. And I think even you, Gabor, share a bit of this concern based on your tweet from three hours ago - http://twitter.com/#!/gaborhojtsy/status/80225914683785216 I won't say the mailing list is the right place, but I do think it's important to consider more perspectives than simply the insider groups. In my opinion the best way to do that is to have discussions out in the open.
From personal observation I believe Greg Dunlap is spending a significant effort on seeking and synthesizing feedback and I encourage everyone to do the same.
Greg -- Greg Knaddison | 720-310-5623 | http://growingventuresolutions.com Security Services for Drupal sites: http://drupalscout.com
Actually it is not true that "anyone can sign up" for the initiatives group. It expressly says: "This is an/invite only/group. The group administrators add/remove members as needed." On 06/13/2011 08:50 AM, Greg Knaddison wrote:
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Gábor Hojtsy<gabor@hojtsy.hu> wrote:
Well, our current approach is to use g.d.o group posts in the Drupal Initiatives group that anyone can sign up for. The group is at http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives Yes and no.
I agree with Daniel's concern that too much of this is happening in closed venues, often with the claim that it's the only way to get things done. And I think even you, Gabor, share a bit of this concern based on your tweet from three hours ago - http://twitter.com/#!/gaborhojtsy/status/80225914683785216
I won't say the mailing list is the right place, but I do think it's important to consider more perspectives than simply the insider groups. In my opinion the best way to do that is to have discussions out in the open.
From personal observation I believe Greg Dunlap is spending a significant effort on seeking and synthesizing feedback and I encourage everyone to do the same.
Greg
-- Karyn Cassio Drupal Developer 720-663-8893
On 6/13/11 11:12 AM, Karyn Cassio wrote:
Actually it is not true that "anyone can sign up" for the initiatives group. It expressly says: "This is an/invite only/group. The group administrators add/remove members as needed." Yeah. There's unfortunately no way to limit create an "announce only" list on g.d.o any other way (if you could limit "Create $foo" permissions on g.d.o to just managers instead of all group members, this would work, but you can't :\). It's important the content here stay curated so that people actually follow it. The downside is that RSS is the only option for subscribing, unfortunately. However, anyone can comment on posts there and participate on discussions, which is certainly the intent.
As of this morning, I'm also piping the RSS feed from this group into Drupal Planet, so that'll hopefully also help distribute viability of these discussions to a wider audience going forward. -Angie
On 6/13/11 9:50 AM, Greg Knaddison wrote:
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Gábor Hojtsy<gabor@hojtsy.hu> wrote:
Well, our current approach is to use g.d.o group posts in the Drupal Initiatives group that anyone can sign up for. The group is at http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives
Yes and no.
I agree with Daniel's concern that too much of this is happening in closed venues, often with the claim that it's the only way to get things done. And I think even you, Gabor, share a bit of this concern based on your tweet from three hours ago - http://twitter.com/#!/gaborhojtsy/status/80225914683785216
I won't say the mailing list is the right place, but I do think it's important to consider more perspectives than simply the insider groups. In my opinion the best way to do that is to have discussions out in the open.
From personal observation I believe Greg Dunlap is spending a significant effort on seeking and synthesizing feedback and I encourage everyone to do the same.
Greg
For the WSCCI initiative I also have been having most architectural discussions on the WSCCI g.d.o group, or if they happen in IRC or at a camp or similar posting summaries to the group afterward. (Not always immediately, but as soon as I am able.) Pretty much the entire history for the past year+ is documented there. The landing page of the group is not as useful as I'd like, I agree, which is on my todo list to fix. The CMI sprint last week was very productive, and we have a writeup with the results that is in progress. It should be going live in the next day or two. We wanted to get a good night's sleep before sanity checking it for release. :-) I don't believe that simply dumping everything from all five initiatives to this list would be a constructive way to communicate, unless it is used only for announcement purposes with links off to g.d.o (since that and the issue queues are all we've got right now). --Larry Garfield
Things one could have learned in IRC (you know, yet another communication medium that doesn't work): - Initiative owners are supposed to post announcements in http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives. You cannot subscribe to all posts of that group, because g.d.o technically does not allow it without opening the group for everyone. <sarcasm>You know, Drupal core initiatives are top-down decisions only, your own perspectives and ideas are not welcome.</sarcasm> - To remedy the subscription issue, posts of the Drupal Initiatives group are now syndicated on Drupal Planet. (http://drupal.org/node/1187060) <sarcasm>Obviously, you can't subscribe to comments this way, but who writes or reads comments anyway?</sarcasm> - To stay on track with all discussions pertaining to an initiative, make sure to join and subscribe to all posts in the following groups: - http://groups.drupal.org/build-systems-change-management/cmi - http://groups.drupal.org/wscci - http://groups.drupal.org/design-drupal - http://groups.drupal.org/internationalization - http://groups.drupal.org/html5 - Next to initiative and group discussions (that mostly but not exclusively happen on g.d.o currently), many technical discussions also happen in the issue queues of dedicated initiative sandboxes; e.g., http://drupal.org/project/issues/butler or http://drupal.org/sandbox/heyrocker/1145636. Make sure to subscribe to "All issues" of those projects if you want to stay in the loop. I wasn't able to find a full list of official projects/sandboxes. - To participate in actual, smaller(?), actionable Drupal core changes, make sure to subscribe to all issues having the following issue tags (and periodically check for new ones, as you cannot subscribe to issue tags): - http://drupal.org/project/issues/search/drupal?issue_tags=cmi - http://drupal.org/project/issues/search/drupal?issue_tags=wscci - http://drupal.org/project/issues/search/drupal?issue_tags=html5 - To get an overview about the roadmap and current status of efforts for a particular initiative, make sure to periodically check their corresponding handbook pages below http://drupal.org/community-initiatives/drupal-core - Lastly, don't miss the actual real-time discussions in IRC, which usually don't get documented anywhere: - irc://irc.freenode.net/drupal-contribute - irc://irc.freenode.net/drupal-design - irc://irc.freenode.net/drupal-i18n - irc://irc.freenode.net/drupal-html5 And now that you went through all of this: Welcome to the discussion! HTH, sun
On 6/13/11 1:08 PM, Daniel F. Kudwien wrote:
And now that you went through all of this: Welcome to the discussion! Right. And so that's why it's perplexing to me that you want to add *yet another* channel for information, especially one that would require weeding through 10+ support questions per day. Ugh.
What we need is basically three levels of engagement: 1. "Outsiders" (non-top 20 core developers) and super busy people (like core committers): We want ONE channel of information, that's basically the highlights/summary of important issues that need our attention or input. We do not need/want to be involved in every single discussion/issue (fix the PHPdoc on X thing, what tag should we use to track our initiative?) because that is totally overwhelming and so much noise that important things slip through the cracks. Basically, we want to know about the following things: a) We think a decision has been reached, and here's the decision. Feedback? b) We're trying to reach a decision, and we need help. Here's where to chime in to help us reach it. c) General status reports about "Hey, if you've been busy for the past while, here's what's going on and what things you should know." That's the role that http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives is trying to fulfill. It's also attempting to act as a "Dashboard" of sorts to find the other channels you're talking about for people who want *one* place to go to find out where to find more out about/get involved with X. But the group is only a couple of weeks old, so we're still working on it. If this channel gets polluted with things that are NOT this sort of "overview" information, then busy people (like me) will have to stop following it and become even *further* disengaged, and that is not what we want. This is why the group is closed to random posting. It's not to enforce some kind of "top-down decision making", it's not to stifle feedback/communication (the *entire point* is to solicit community feedback!!). It's simply to provide curation of content so if something goes through there, people know it's really effing important and they should pay attention to it. If someone comes up with a patch to OG/g.d.o to add per-group granular create $foo permissions on g.d.o, I'd be *thrilled* and would gladly open it up to all users to subscribe so they can use their normal subscription workflow. For now, we use the tools we have, not the tools we wish we had. 2. Then, we have a per-initiative interest involvement. You don't care about HTML5, Design, or Internationalization, but you would like to follow info about configuration management and web services, because that's something you're passionate about. Perfect. Each initiative has (or will have): a) A group on g.d.o, which is a place for "meta" discussions to happen. All of these are listed at the top of http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives. Super important things will be cross-posted to the d-i group (as well as any other appropriate groups), too. Community initiatives pages probably belong here too. (The only reason community initiatives pages live on d.o is because g.d.o doesn't support [#xxx] syntax. Once again, patches welcome.) b) One or more issues in the Drupal core queue around major actionable "chunks" which act as "broadcast" to the deeply-involved core development community (think sun, DamZ, and catch) who also doesn't care about the minutia I mentioned earlier, but definitely wants to review the progress of the overall initiative as it progresses and not get smacked with it in the face at the end. So people like you would subscribe to maybe 5-6 issues per initiative you're interested in, and each of those would get pinged once a week or so with a summary of progress. 3. Finally, we have people actively participating and doing the actual work in an initiative who *do* want the day-to-day minutia, since that's their actual to-do list. For them, we have a sandbox project where they can allocate commit access willy-nilly, come up with whatever component/tagging system makes the most sense to them, etc. This makes it *much* easier for new people to get involved in initiatives because instead of trying to find a tag in the core queue, and also makes it clear what stuff has already been committed to core and what stuff is still pending. It's a single place to go if you are interested in diving in with code. I propose a workflow for this at http://groups.drupal.org/node/148184#comment-516654 which I /think/ helps mitigate some of the communication overload concerns you have. If not, please comment there and let's figure it out, because this is definitely a problem we need to solve. The reason this is so janky right now is because initiatives are brand new, and we're still figuring this stuff out. It's not some kind of grand conspiracy to block people out of participation in these discussions. Exactly the opposite. People like Gábor and Larry *desperately want* feedback on these large architecture issues and have lacked it because of communication infrastructure. So that's one of the things I'm currently focusing on as part of my day job. HTH, -Angie
Also, for those who like putting code behind criticisms: Allow [#XXX] filter to work on non-local databases: http://drupal.org/node/338661 Allow "announcement only" groups: http://drupal.org/node/1187832
webchick wrote:
On 6/13/11 1:08 PM, Daniel F. Kudwien wrote:
And now that you went through all of this: Welcome to the discussion! Right. And so that's why it's perplexing to me that you want to add *yet another* channel for information, especially one that would require weeding through 10+ support questions per day. Ugh.
I read his post as wanting to minimize the channels to this list, not add another one. But I've come to the reality that it is impossible to do with the magnitude of issues and diversity of coders.
That's the role that http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives is trying to fulfill. It's also attempting to act as a "Dashboard" of sorts to find the other channels you're talking about for people who want *one* place to go to find out where to find more out about/get involved with X. But the group is only a couple of weeks old, so we're still working on it.
It would be nice if I could login to my g.d.o account, go to this group landing page and have an option to follow content to my subscribed email account. That is similar to what happens with the project issues queues. I can flag the project issues as interesting to watch so that I can help if necessary or time permits. -- Earnie -- http://progw.com -- http://www.for-my-kids.com
On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 6:31 AM, Earnie Boyd <earnie@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
It would be nice if I could login to my g.d.o account, go to this group landing page and have an option to follow content to my subscribed email account. That is similar to what happens with the project issues queues. I can flag the project issues as interesting to watch so that I can help if necessary or time permits.
This is prevented by bugs in OG and messaging/notifications. See http://drupal.org/project/issues/search/?issue_tags=gdolove for more details. Greg -- Greg Knaddison | 720-310-5623 | http://growingventuresolutions.com Security Services for Drupal sites: http://drupalscout.com
I could be mis-reading the issue at hand, but isn't this remarkably similar to how the Internet Engineering Task Force does RFC's? If the problem is attempting to manage proper circulation of concepts that core developers are working on, then it seems appropriate to assign statuses: "Informational", "historic", "experimental", etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_Comments If that is the goal, then A) Angie is spot on with the need to call for writers with free time. B) No, a mailing list is not the proper venue. and C) probably g.d.o. isn't either. Sorry to not have a specific solution in mind, but maybe the above methodology, refined since 1969 - might be a good place to look for a model? $0.02 Sam Tresler 646-246-8403 On Tue, 14 Jun 2011, Greg Knaddison wrote:
On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 6:31 AM, Earnie Boyd <earnie@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
It would be nice if I could login to my g.d.o account, go to this group landing page and have an option to follow content to my subscribed email account. That is similar to what happens with the project issues queues. I can flag the project issues as interesting to watch so that I can help if necessary or time permits.
This is prevented by bugs in OG and messaging/notifications.
See http://drupal.org/project/issues/search/?issue_tags=gdolove for more details.
Greg
-- Greg Knaddison | 720-310-5623 | http://growingventuresolutions.com Security Services for Drupal sites: http://drupalscout.com
On 6/13/11 1:08 PM, Daniel F. Kudwien wrote:
Things one could have learned in IRC (you know, yet another communication medium that doesn't work):
- Initiative owners are supposed to post announcements in http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives. You cannot subscribe to all posts of that group, because g.d.o technically does not allow it without opening the group for everyone. <sarcasm>You know, Drupal core initiatives are top-down decisions only, your own perspectives and ideas are not welcome.</sarcasm>
- To remedy the subscription issue, posts of the Drupal Initiatives group are now syndicated on Drupal Planet. (http://drupal.org/node/1187060) <sarcasm>Obviously, you can't subscribe to comments this way, but who writes or reads comments anyway?</sarcasm> You know, I just realized while I was tweaking the dashboard that another reason people might be getting the mistaken impression that http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives is intended to stifle discussion (other than "invite-only" which, as mentioned, is required for an announcement list) is because of the previous group description that was there, which had some kind of weird language in it probably gave this impression.
I've just edited it to mostly say what I said in my previous mail, which is certainly what the *intent* is (a curated *invitation* for community discussion on the most important stuff). I think that old description was made back when we were still kind of figuring out communication channels and we didn't really know how we'd be using that group. Sorry about the confusion, there. -Angie
Thanks, that helps me anyway. I originally joined this list because some 5+ years ago because I was told that this was how you learned about api changes, and where the contrib community (module maintainers) would get solicited for input on api change issues that would have far reaching effects. It was also where I heard the calls to action (we need help in the issue queue, people testing patches etc). It sounds like for better or for worse, we've abandoned that purpose of this list. I can no longer find any documentation on how a responsible maintainer is supposed to stay connected. Does such a document exist? Maybe we no longer care? Do I hear you correctly saying that an RSS subscription to the iniatives group is what you'd like us to be doing? Api changes will now be announced there and not here, right? Dave On Jun 13, 2011, at 7:47 PM, webchick wrote:
On 6/13/11 1:08 PM, Daniel F. Kudwien wrote:
Things one could have learned in IRC (you know, yet another communication medium that doesn't work):
- Initiative owners are supposed to post announcements in http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives. You cannot subscribe to all posts of that group, because g.d.o technically does not allow it without opening the group for everyone. <sarcasm>You know, Drupal core initiatives are top-down decisions only, your own perspectives and ideas are not welcome.</sarcasm>
- To remedy the subscription issue, posts of the Drupal Initiatives group are now syndicated on Drupal Planet. (http://drupal.org/node/1187060) <sarcasm>Obviously, you can't subscribe to comments this way, but who writes or reads comments anyway?</sarcasm>
You know, I just realized while I was tweaking the dashboard that another reason people might be getting the mistaken impression that http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives is intended to stifle discussion (other than "invite-only" which, as mentioned, is required for an announcement list) is because of the previous group description that was there, which had some kind of weird language in it probably gave this impression.
I've just edited it to mostly say what I said in my previous mail, which is certainly what the *intent* is (a curated *invitation* for community discussion on the most important stuff). I think that old description was made back when we were still kind of figuring out communication channels and we didn't really know how we'd be using that group. Sorry about the confusion, there.
-Angie
On 6/13/11 10:50 AM, Greg Knaddison wrote:
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Gábor Hojtsy<gabor@hojtsy.hu> wrote:
Well, our current approach is to use g.d.o group posts in the Drupal Initiatives group that anyone can sign up for. The group is at http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives Yes and no.
I agree with Daniel's concern that too much of this is happening in closed venues, often with the claim that it's the only way to get things done. And I think even you, Gabor, share a bit of this concern based on your tweet from three hours ago - http://twitter.com/#!/gaborhojtsy/status/80225914683785216
I won't say the mailing list is the right place, but I do think it's important to consider more perspectives than simply the insider groups. In my opinion the best way to do that is to have discussions out in the open. Can you cite anyone actually claiming that "closed venues is the only way to get things done"? If so, I'd be happy to smack 'em around. :)
My observation has been that this stuff is pretty much *all* happening publicly (or at worst, a public summary of IRC/IRL/e-mail discussions shortly after they take place). The problem, in my experience, is there are way too many freaking channels for this information between g.d.o/mailing lists/issue queues/tags/etc. so it's really easy to miss it until it's too late. Hence my other long e-mail about trying to build a framework around the communication stuff. We got the CMI report http://groups.drupal.org/node/155559 out as fast as we possibly could (~72 hours). It was *really* fricking hard to write though, because the code was literally changing under our feet as we were writing it up, since we were also actively trying to bring more perspectives into it from other folks in the coder lounge at DCCO to make sure it survived some basic "beta" tests. And I wanted to make sure all of the folks at the sprint agreed with what was in it before it was broadcast broadly; I certainly didn't want to misrepresent their views or get technical details wrong, which delayed it another 24 hours or so. But it's important that to note that this is a _summary of the configuration management sprint_, *not* a "this is how we're doing it, suckas! Eat it!" The info's out there to comment on, be picked apart, iterated on, whatever. If there's an impression otherwise given, that's certainly not the intent. All of these D8 initiatives are still in the *very* early stages, and not a lick of code has been committed to core yet (or, in most cases, even written). It's the absolute *perfect* time to jump in and chime in with your thoughts! If you're getting an impression other than that, we need to figure out where that's coming from, and squash it.
From personal observation I believe Greg Dunlap is spending a significant effort on seeking and synthesizing feedback and I encourage everyone to do the same. Greg is fortunate in that he's subsidized 50% by his employer to work on his initiative. Other initiative owners are not so lucky, so it's harder for them to both manage their initiatives, read and respond to feedback on discussions, write/review code, AND write up thoughtful and useful status reports to the community. I'm trying to help share some of this burden, because I'm subsidized as well, but I'm also one of two people who can commit to D7, for example. :\
So: - Can you write English? - Do you have 5 or so hours per week free? - Do you have an interest in one or more of these initiatives? If so, *you* could help with announcement writing and other communication tasks, and that would be a *super* important way to help these initiatives. -Angie
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Greg Knaddison <greg@growingventuresolutions.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Gábor Hojtsy <gabor@hojtsy.hu> wrote:
Well, our current approach is to use g.d.o group posts in the Drupal Initiatives group that anyone can sign up for. The group is at http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives
Yes and no.
I agree with Daniel's concern that too much of this is happening in closed venues, often with the claim that it's the only way to get things done. And I think even you, Gabor, share a bit of this concern based on your tweet from three hours ago - http://twitter.com/#!/gaborhojtsy/status/80225914683785216
Yes, I was interested, because if you look at the tweet I replied to, chx said the report was already written. Apparently it needed some review to be good for publication (it is now out and is on Drupal Planet). Incidentally Sun's topic starter here was ignited by a discussion I posted to him among others for review before publication. Same approach :) He did not agree this is a good idea, which ended up in this great discussion. (I've just posted part of that at http://groups.drupal.org/node/155634 for discussion, hope it takes off :). However, for sprints, I think its pretty hard to maintain a "liveblog" instead of distilling down the work to a report after / at the end of the sprint, which does take some time. When we did the multilingual sprint earlier this year in Berlin, we posted photos of our whiteboard with priorities and tasks to twitter and IRC continually and tried to keep people in the loop with that.
From personal observation I believe Greg Dunlap is spending a significant effort on seeking and synthesizing feedback and I encourage everyone to do the same.
I'd love to be hanging around in IRC more, organize more sprints and such, and believe me I continually lobby for more sponsored time for this. Greg has this great arrangement of 50% work time (thanks NodeOne), which is a level none of the other initiative leads have. Still I think I'm one of the most prolific posters in the initiative group. I'm even posting stuff I don't necessarily agree with where we do need discussion - which was questioned by Sun in fact at http://groups.drupal.org/node/154394#comment-517324 :) I'm also definitely the last to not even have a sandbox to let discussions flow closer to big directions instead, so we can be sure we work towards the right goals. I'm definitely trying to be as open as possible. Let me know if you have suggestions to do it better. Gábor
2011/6/13 Gábor Hojtsy <gabor@hojtsy.hu>:
Hi,
Well, our current approach is to use g.d.o group posts in the Drupal Initiatives group that anyone can sign up for. The group is at http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-initiatives
The Drupal Initiatives group is "invite only", so you can't really sign up for it.
There are also calls every two weeks between the initiative owners, Dries, Angie, et. al. to hammer out the more pressing things and generally figure out the details that cannot be worked out in email our issue queues. Angie plans to write blog posts with reports on what's happening at these meetings (probably to be published in the drupal initiatives group linked above or maybe on her blog).
I'm not sure the development list is a good medium for these discussions. On g.d.o you can selectively follow the specific groups set up for the work or follow the main group overall. More importantly you can go back and participate in discussions which started before you became a member or became aware of the initiative even. This does not work in emails. I'm probably of the more prolific writers among the initiative leads on that group, and while I'm not sure I could reach the whole audience I wanted to, I think the group posts help keep the discussion focused and open. Many of the people who commented there with valuable feedback I'm sure not even members of this list.
Gábor
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Am 13.06.2011 16:22, schrieb Daniel F. Kudwien:
Hi initiative owners, participants, and developers,
I'd like to urge you to move more or ideally all conversations that are currently held in private into the public, to this list.
Open brainstorming, roadmap and proposal-style discussions and conversations are actually what mailing lists still excel in.
- Everyone can chime in. No one is excluded. - Threads and sub-topics can be spawned easily, at any time, and are still tracked by everyone. - Discussions don't need to be announced, the discussion is the announcement.
It's debatable whether the Development list is suitable or whether there should be a separate list.
No, that's not debatable, that's exactly the purpose of this list. The rest of the topics should be moved to the support list. Cheers, Gerhard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk32I88ACgkQfg6TFvELooSCsQCgx3/sisTeXmzAAGd+pcdK0MwV db0AniAu2OnOnS2jyI6X8WYmghTRl3fh =02PH -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 6/13/11 9:50 AM, Gerhard Killesreiter wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Am 13.06.2011 16:22, schrieb Daniel F. Kudwien:
Hi initiative owners, participants, and developers,
I'd like to urge you to move more or ideally all conversations that are currently held in private into the public, to this list.
Open brainstorming, roadmap and proposal-style discussions and conversations are actually what mailing lists still excel in.
- Everyone can chime in. No one is excluded. - Threads and sub-topics can be spawned easily, at any time, and are still tracked by everyone. - Discussions don't need to be announced, the discussion is the announcement.
It's debatable whether the Development list is suitable or whether there should be a separate list.
No, that's not debatable, that's exactly the purpose of this list. The rest of the topics should be moved to the support list.
Cheers, Gerhard
Well, it is being debated: http://drupal.org/node/1163962 --Larry Garfield
And if this stuff really bugs you, enough such that you actually want to do something about it, you might want to check out the "Prairie Initiative" where a number of us are working to build better communication/coordination tools for working together on large projects like the community initiatives. http://groups.drupal.org/prairie-initiative -- Kyle Mathews Blog: kyle.mathews2000.com/blog Twitter: http://twitter.com/kylemathews On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com>wrote:
On 6/13/11 9:50 AM, Gerhard Killesreiter wrote:
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Am 13.06.2011 16:22, schrieb Daniel F. Kudwien:
Hi initiative owners, participants, and developers,
I'd like to urge you to move more or ideally all conversations that are currently held in private into the public, to this list.
Open brainstorming, roadmap and proposal-style discussions and conversations are actually what mailing lists still excel in.
- Everyone can chime in. No one is excluded. - Threads and sub-topics can be spawned easily, at any time, and are still tracked by everyone. - Discussions don't need to be announced, the discussion is the announcement.
It's debatable whether the Development list is suitable or whether there should be a separate list.
No, that's not debatable, that's exactly the purpose of this list. The rest of the topics should be moved to the support list.
Cheers, Gerhard
Well, it is being debated: http://drupal.org/node/1163962
--Larry Garfield
On 06/13/11 12:25, Larry Garfield wrote:
Well, it is being debated: http://drupal.org/node/1163962
Only debated because of the lack of exactly the type of content that Daniel is proposing reintroducing to the list. I am 100% in favor of leaving this list AS-IS and not re-purposing it if we can get more core discussions going on it. These initiatives present a great opportunity to do so imo. -- Michael Favia michael@favish.com tel. 512.669.5650 http://www.favish.com
On 6/13/2011 10:55 AM, Michael Favia wrote:
On 06/13/11 12:25, Larry Garfield wrote:
Well, it is being debated: http://drupal.org/node/1163962
Only debated because of the lack of exactly the type of content that Daniel is proposing reintroducing to the list. I am 100% in favor of leaving this list AS-IS and not re-purposing it if we can get more core discussions going on it. These initiatives present a great opportunity to do so imo.
Honestly, I don't think it can work. Lots and lots of developers have abandoned the list because it's a single stream (even if it's threaded) and you can't be selective very well. You have to be very good with your email client to use lists effectively, and I think mailing lists are more or less the past, in terms of real communication on a project. You will not include people very well with a mailing list, nor can discussions be effectively moderated. All that will really happen is undifferentiated threads, uncontrolled discussions and no ability to organize the data. g.d.o has real problems but it's better than a mailing list.
participants (14)
-
Daniel F. Kudwien -
David Metzler -
Earl Miles -
Earnie Boyd -
Gerhard Killesreiter -
Greg Knaddison -
Gábor Hojtsy -
Henrique Recidive -
Karyn Cassio -
Kyle Mathews -
Larry Garfield -
Michael Favia -
Sam Tresler -
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