[drupal-devel] promote to frontpage: confusing.
Hello. Currently we use the standard flag called "promote to frontpage". This is only correct for those cases where /node is the frontpage. For all other cases, thes flag is obsolete, if not completely wrong. I suggest the folloiwing: We stop calling /node frontpage. We call /node "headlines", in documentation and help text. By default the headlines are set to frontpage (we have that now) We rename the flag " promote" to "add to healines", or even simply "is headline" Pro This will improve useability for all these ppl that do not use /node as frontpage. It will make our frontpage system clearer, for /node (headlines) becomes just another frontpage option. Con: Users who are used to the current system might get confused when they do not find the "promote to frontpage flag" anymore. Regards, Bèr -- [ Bèr Kessels | Drupal services www.webschuur.com ]
While I agree that "promote to the front page" is misleading for the reasons Bèr stated, I think that "add to headlines" is plagued with the same problem. This label is good only for the cases where promoted nodes become headlines. But what about other applications of node promotion? The flag could be used to separate the important nodes from the relatively unimportant, the timely from the old stuff, or to make some other distinction. I wrote a module called "periodical" that gathers promoted nodes to create a new issue of periodic content. So I vote for a more general label like "Promote this node". While this label may not fully describe what the flag affects, at least the label does not improperly describe the affects of checking the box. Nic On Mar 7, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Bèr Kessels wrote:
Hello.
Currently we use the standard flag called "promote to frontpage". This is only correct for those cases where /node is the frontpage. For all other cases, thes flag is obsolete, if not completely wrong.
I suggest the folloiwing: We stop calling /node frontpage. We call /node "headlines", in documentation and help text. By default the headlines are set to frontpage (we have that now) We rename the flag " promote" to "add to healines", or even simply "is headline"
Pro This will improve useability for all these ppl that do not use /node as frontpage. It will make our frontpage system clearer, for /node (headlines) becomes just another frontpage option.
Con: Users who are used to the current system might get confused when they do not find the "promote to frontpage flag" anymore. Regards, Bèr -- [ Bèr Kessels | Drupal services www.webschuur.com ]
Op dinsdag 8 maart 2005 01:17, schreef Nicholas Ivy:
So I vote for a more general label like "Promote this node". While this label may not fully describe what the flag affects, at least the label does not improperly describe the affects of checking the box.
Good one. "headlines" is indeed only slightly mre general then "frontpage". We should indeed think of a new term. Anyone? Regards, Bèr -- [ Bèr Kessels | Drupal services www.webschuur.com ]
"visible on Frontpage" requires no help text. When you start trying to get fancy and synonymous term involved in what the user visualizes then you get confusion. This is why "promote" is confusing. It has no visual equivalent. The user is required to translate its meaning. There are several other instances of words like this in v4.5 and have been removed in v4.6 example "access control" works better than "configure" which led to "configure what?" "where am I" "where is the text explaining this?" Carl McDade Ross Kendall wrote:
"Show on main listings page" ?? (with help text to say that this is the default front page - 'node')
Bèr Kessels wrote:
Good one. "headlines" is indeed only slightly mre general then "frontpage". We should indeed think of a new term. Anyone?
Regards, Bèr
Op dinsdag 8 maart 2005 11:03, schreef Carl McDade:
"visible on Frontpage" requires no help text.
The original post tells that "frontpage" is incorrect, If someone has anything else then /node as frontpage. Which anyone can do. In other words: we must get rid of the term frontpage. not of the "promote" term. Regards, Bèr -- [ Bèr Kessels | Drupal services www.webschuur.com ]
I don't get that. When someone opens the site via a browser then there is the "default page" showing. I don't know how different this is from "front page". Even if they have set up a splash page that leads to the Drupal site, this should not change the fact that from within the Drupal admin the frontpage is still that page which Drupal must show or start from. default page start page home page opening page first page index page Or am I missing part of the scenario? Is this a naming conflict that needs to be resolved? Carl McDade Bèr Kessels wrote:
Op dinsdag 8 maart 2005 11:03, schreef Carl McDade:
"visible on Frontpage" requires no help text.
The original post tells that "frontpage" is incorrect, If someone has anything else then /node as frontpage. Which anyone can do.
In other words: we must get rid of the term frontpage. not of the "promote" term.
Regards, Bèr
I don't get that. When someone opens the site via a browser then there is the "default page" showing. I don't know how different this is from "front page". Even if they have set up a splash page that leads to the Drupal site, this should not change the fact that from within the Drupal admin the frontpage is still that page which Drupal must show or start from.
default page start page home page opening page first page index page
Or am I missing part of the scenario? Is this a naming conflict that needs to be resolved?
Carl, you don't get it. You can set very easily set 'forum' to be your site frontpage, or you can just set 'node/12' (node/view/12 in 4.5) to be your frontpage. Then the promote flag has no effect on a node showing on your own frontpage, since it is not the default 'node' page. Goba
ahh haa!, Okay, And there is no way of setting this as a boolean so that the flag function does not show when not using the default idea of what a frontpage should be? How about changing help the text? I don't think that this can be fixed with just a few words (title) since the user will have stepped out of the default flow. Usability calls for predicting the flow and setting the rules. Under this there is nothing that can be predicted so any text would be lacking because the user is too much in control. What would happen if you grabbed the section name and put it in as "promote to %section as first item"? Carl McDade Gabor Hojtsy wrote:
I don't get that. When someone opens the site via a browser then there is the "default page" showing. I don't know how different this is from "front page". Even if they have set up a splash page that leads to the Drupal site, this should not change the fact that from within the Drupal admin the frontpage is still that page which Drupal must show or start from.
default page start page home page opening page first page index page
Or am I missing part of the scenario? Is this a naming conflict that needs to be resolved?
Carl, you don't get it. You can set very easily set 'forum' to be your site frontpage, or you can just set 'node/12' (node/view/12 in 4.5) to be your frontpage. Then the promote flag has no effect on a node showing on your own frontpage, since it is not the default 'node' page.
Goba
Okay, And there is no way of setting this as a boolean so that the flag function does not show when not using the default idea of what a frontpage should be?
How about changing help the text? I don't think that this can be fixed with just a few words (title) since the user will have stepped out of the default flow. Usability calls for predicting the flow and setting the rules. Under this there is nothing that can be predicted so any text would be lacking because the user is too much in control.
The same problem comes up all the time. The user is too much in control, and this is good (from a point of view) :)
What would happen if you grabbed the section name and put it in as "promote to %section as first item"?
node/12 is not a section, and it can a frontpage... Goba
I meant %section as a generic variable it could have been anything. In the case of node/ since there is only one "item" then "first item" would be that node. Otherwise the promotion is to the top of any multiple list. "promote" . $this ." to first (visible) item" ? Carl McDade Gabor Hojtsy wrote:
Okay, And there is no way of setting this as a boolean so that the flag function does not show when not using the default idea of what a frontpage should be?
How about changing help the text? I don't think that this can be fixed with just a few words (title) since the user will have stepped out of the default flow. Usability calls for predicting the flow and setting the rules. Under this there is nothing that can be predicted so any text would be lacking because the user is too much in control.
The same problem comes up all the time. The user is too much in control, and this is good (from a point of view) :)
What would happen if you grabbed the section name and put it in as "promote to %section as first item"?
node/12 is not a section, and it can a frontpage...
Goba
Even more generic... Make. $this . first visible item? (checkbox) Covers just about any thing from a node to a section or comment. Carl McDade Gabor Hojtsy wrote:
Okay, And there is no way of setting this as a boolean so that the flag function does not show when not using the default idea of what a frontpage should be?
How about changing help the text? I don't think that this can be fixed with just a few words (title) since the user will have stepped out of the default flow. Usability calls for predicting the flow and setting the rules. Under this there is nothing that can be predicted so any text would be lacking because the user is too much in control.
The same problem comes up all the time. The user is too much in control, and this is good (from a point of view) :)
What would happen if you grabbed the section name and put it in as "promote to %section as first item"?
node/12 is not a section, and it can a frontpage...
Goba
Even more generic...
Make. $this . first visible item? (checkbox)
Covers just about any thing from a node to a section or comment.
Carl McDade
Carl, please... You are explaining the sticky concept here, not the promote feature... At least try to think in the scope of the topic! Goba
No, it's not the same thing. It just seems that way because bcause you are taking it out of context. When in it's proper comparative list the differences are very apparent. I am on topic. Just because used the word "list" does not mean that I have forgotten what I was speaking about. Published In moderation queue Promoted to front page <=> Make this the first (visible) item Sticky at top of lists Create new revision Carl McDade Gabor Hojtsy wrote:
Even more generic...
Make. $this . first visible item? (checkbox)
Covers just about any thing from a node to a section or comment.
Carl McDade
Carl, please... You are explaining the sticky concept here, not the promote feature... At least try to think in the scope of the topic!
Goba
Let us end this discussion here. It will be solved with the workflow improvements. So unless someone comes up with a *simple* *clean* *easy* *correct* patch, now, ttalking about it makes no sense. Bèr Op dinsdag 8 maart 2005 14:54, schreef Carl McDade:
, it's not the same thing. It just seems that way because bcause you are taking it out of context. When in it's proper comparative list the differences are very apparent. I am on topic. Just because used the word "list" does not mean that I have forgotten what I was speaking about. Regards, Bèr -- [ Bèr Kessels | Drupal services www.webschuur.com ]
Bèr Kessels schreef:
Let us end this discussion here. It will be solved with the workflow improvements. So unless someone comes up with a *simple* *clean* *easy* *correct* patch, now, ttalking about it makes no sense.
Bèr
Op dinsdag 8 maart 2005 14:54, schreef Carl McDade:
, it's not the same thing. It just seems that way because bcause you are taking it out of context. When in it's proper comparative list the differences are very apparent. I am on topic. Just because used the word "list" does not mean that I have forgotten what I was speaking about.
Regards, Bèr
Well, when I'm translating my site i usually translate the texts: - 'Promote to frontpage' => 'Display in itemlist'; - 'Sticky at top of lists' => 'Sticky at top of itemlist'. How about that?? We do not ude the unfriendly 'node'-word and keep it simple for every user.. I would be happy, to make a patch for this... Stefan
Well, when I'm translating my site i usually translate the texts: - 'Promote to frontpage' => 'Display in itemlist'; - 'Sticky at top of lists' => 'Sticky at top of itemlist'.
How about that?? We do not ude the unfriendly 'node'-word and keep it simple for every user.. I would be happy, to make a patch for this...
Stefan, you think /taxonomy/term/12 is not an itemlist? Goba
Gabor Hojtsy wrote:
Carl, you don't get it. You can set very easily set 'forum' to be your site frontpage, or you can just set 'node/12' (node/view/12 in 4.5) to be your frontpage. Then the promote flag has no effect on a node showing on your own frontpage, since it is not the default 'node' page.
Goba
Sorry... what does the promote flag do, then, if it doesn't affect whether something shows on the front page when the front page is not the default node page? Anisa.
Carl, you don't get it. You can set very easily set 'forum' to be your site frontpage, or you can just set 'node/12' (node/view/12 in 4.5) to be your frontpage. Then the promote flag has no effect on a node showing on your own frontpage, since it is not the default 'node' page.
Sorry... what does the promote flag do, then, if it doesn't affect whether something shows on the front page when the front page is not the default node page?
Anisa, it depends on the homepage you use, or where else you show the promoted nodes. Drupal is flexible, and you can use 'promote' for anything. Like promoting weblink nodes to a block (given that you have the block code written yourself, and the homepage written yourself, to ignore promoted weblinks itself). I thought about populating a weblink block this way at a site, but then went a different way.... This is still a usecase however. Goba
On Tuesday 08 March 2005 02:57, Bèr Kessels wrote:
Good one. "headlines" is indeed only slightly mre general then "frontpage". We should indeed think of a new term. Anyone?
"Promote", by itself, without saying to *where*. Reasons: 1. Semantically, to "promote" a node means to mark it as important enough for all to see. Think about in a community setting how nodes get promoted, and why. In a traditional web development sense, if I correct typos on a page in my [conceptually] static content, such as a book page, I wouldn't want to trumpet that change to the world. But if I introduce a whole new section of the site, I just might want to "promote" that section's main page. The *concept* of promotion makes sense indepenently of how that translates to a site visitor's visual experience. 2. In my experience of writing both web and traditional terminal-based apps, users easily *learn* a term that has no intuitive meaning in their prior computer experience. What confuses them is to use a term that says one thing and means another. In this context, "promote" is a term that most users will at first wonder what it does, because it doesn't intuitively seem to mean anything in terms of a computer interface. Once they see that this means to mark an item as important and cause it to be elevated in prominence, they will not forget. And they will learn to associate "promote" with whatever happens on the site with which they are working. An analog to this would be a term like "mouse". Someone who has never seen a computer before would *not* intuitively think a "mouse" is a small piece of plastic with buttons on top and a thin cable connecting it to a computer. But the moment you show them one, they never have trouble remembering what it is called, and if you say the word "mouse" five minutes later, they know exactly what you mean by it. If you called it an "gesture keyboard", *then* they would be confused, because they have a conflicting preconception of what a keyboard is. I guess what I'm trying to say is, focus on what "promote" means semantically, rather than what it means in terms of visual representation on the site. Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it. :-) Scott -- -----------------------+------------------------------------------------------ Scott Courtney | "I don't mind Microsoft making money. I mind them scott@4th.com | having a bad operating system." -- Linus Torvalds http://4th.com/ | ("The Rebel Code," NY Times, 21 February 1999) | PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/scott.pubkey
Scott Courtney wrote:
"Promote", by itself, without saying to *where*.
Reasons:
...<snip>...
Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it. :-)
Scott
Scott, your little essay gave me some entertainment, considering what I paid, that's pretty good value for money :) (I just found it amusing that such a little issue has got so much attention - no criticism of your thoughts)
-1 for this change - UNLESS there is empirical data to suggest that the majority of Drupal installs do not use the default front page (i.e. they use something else). "Promote to front page" is not confusing in any way. And if someone is advanced enough to change their front page, I think they would understand that "Promote to front page" means "Promote to the page that is normally the front page." The real solution is to test what the default front page is (perhaps even create and store a new flag) and change the wording of the option box based on that. Pseudo code: If($default_front_page) { form_checkboxes(t('Promote to front page') /*MORE CODE*/); } else { form_checkboxes(t('Is Headline') /*MORE CODE*/); } Long story short - The cons of the proposed change AS IS outweigh the pros. andre Bèr Kessels wrote:
Hello.
Currently we use the standard flag called "promote to frontpage". This is only correct for those cases where /node is the frontpage. For all other cases, thes flag is obsolete, if not completely wrong.
I suggest the folloiwing: We stop calling /node frontpage. We call /node "headlines", in documentation and help text. By default the headlines are set to frontpage (we have that now) We rename the flag " promote" to "add to healines", or even simply "is headline"
Pro This will improve useability for all these ppl that do not use /node as frontpage. It will make our frontpage system clearer, for /node (headlines) becomes just another frontpage option.
Con: Users who are used to the current system might get confused when they do not find the "promote to frontpage flag" anymore. Regards, Bèr
Op dinsdag 8 maart 2005 03:03, schreef Andre Molnar:
And if someone is advanced enough to change their front page, I think they would understand that "Promote to front page" means "Promote to the page that is normally the front page."
This setting is on the first settings page one will encounter. So so, everyone can change this, after which "promote to frontpage" is a lie. Regards, Bèr -- [ Bèr Kessels | Drupal services www.webschuur.com ]
oop, hit "send" too quick. -1 on changing the name dynamically. Its very bad for useability to have form items change into other iotems based on changing settings. A form item should remain the same. Always. OR might dissapear, but certainly not change into another one. Op dinsdag 8 maart 2005 03:03, schreef Andre Molnar:
-1 for this change - UNLESS there is empirical data to suggest that the majority of Drupal installs do not use the default front page (i.e. they use something else).
"Promote to front page" is not confusing in any way. And if someone is advanced enough to change their front page, I think they would understand that "Promote to front page" means "Promote to the page that is normally the front page."
The real solution is to test what the default front page is (perhaps even create and store a new flag) and change the wording of the option box based on that.
Pseudo code:
If($default_front_page) { form_checkboxes(t('Promote to front page') /*MORE CODE*/); } else { form_checkboxes(t('Is Headline') /*MORE CODE*/); }
Long story short - The cons of the proposed change AS IS outweigh the pros.
andre
Bèr Kessels wrote:
Hello.
Currently we use the standard flag called "promote to frontpage". This is only correct for those cases where /node is the frontpage. For all other cases, thes flag is obsolete, if not completely wrong.
I suggest the folloiwing: We stop calling /node frontpage. We call /node "headlines", in documentation and help text. By default the headlines are set to frontpage (we have that now) We rename the flag " promote" to "add to healines", or even simply "is headline"
Pro This will improve useability for all these ppl that do not use /node as frontpage. It will make our frontpage system clearer, for /node (headlines) becomes just another frontpage option.
Con: Users who are used to the current system might get confused when they do not find the "promote to frontpage flag" anymore. Regards, Bèr Regards, Bèr -- [ Bèr Kessels | Drupal services www.webschuur.com ]
Bèr Kessels wrote:
oop, hit "send" too quick.
-1 on changing the name dynamically. Its very bad for useability to have form items change into other iotems based on changing settings. A form item should remain the same. Always. OR might dissapear, but certainly not change into another one.
-1 on using "headlines". It is even more confusing. Reading "promote to headlines" doesn't makes me think: "Ah, this promotes the node to the front page". It makes me wonder where these "headlines" are to be found. Note that the "promote to front page" toggle might disappear once the workflow and action modules hit core. Why? Because "promote to front page" might become an action. There are a number of important usability improvements we have agreed upon at the usability sprint in Antwerp. Why don't we focus on those? -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Just a question: What were the usability improvements agreed on in Antwerp? Thanks, Ross. Dries Buytaert wrote:
There are a number of important usability improvements we have agreed upon at the usability sprint in Antwerp. Why don't we focus on those?
Op dinsdag 8 maart 2005 10:10, schreef Dries Buytaert:
There are a number of important usability improvements we have agreed upon at the usability sprint in Antwerp. Why don't we focus on those?
This was an "itch" that needed immediate scratching. The things we agree upon are in the pipeline, but a client of mine got really confused about this, which triggered me. I had to explain him that drupal is inconsistent in these things, and that he had to learn to live with it. IMO the worst answer you have to give. But yes, the useability improvements agreed upon on the sprint must get attention. Regards, Bèr -- [ Bèr Kessels | Drupal services www.webschuur.com ]
On 08 Mar 2005, at 11:10 AM, Dries Buytaert wrote:
Note that the "promote to front page" toggle might disappear once the workflow and action modules hit core. Why? Because "promote to front page" might become an action.
I'd rather concentrate on getting workflow in core than tweaking the language. But that's just coz workflow / actions are cool =) -- Adrian Rossouw Drupal developer and Bryght Guy http://drupal.org | http://bryght.com
-1 for this change - UNLESS there is empirical data to suggest that the majority of Drupal installs do not use the default front page (i.e. they use something else).
"Promote to front page" is not confusing in any way. And if someone is advanced enough to change their front page, I think they would understand that "Promote to front page" means "Promote to the page that is normally the front page."
Problem is that the one who sets up the page is not the same who uses. The majority of Drupal users are not those who had set it up themselfs, as far as I guess... If I deploy a Drupal installation to some client, he will not know that he is not seeing the default homepage...
The real solution is to test what the default front page is (perhaps even create and store a new flag) and change the wording of the option box based on that.
Pseudo code:
If($default_front_page) { form_checkboxes(t('Promote to front page') /*MORE CODE*/); } else { form_checkboxes(t('Is Headline') /*MORE CODE*/); }
Long story short - The cons of the proposed change AS IS outweigh the pros.
This might work indeed. Goba
Gabor Hojtsy wrote:
Problem is that the one who sets up the page is not the same who uses. The majority of Drupal users are not those who had set it up themselfs, as far as I guess... If I deploy a Drupal installation to some client, he will not know that he is not seeing the default homepage...
Point taken!
The real solution is to test what the default front page is (perhaps even create and store a new flag) and change the wording of the option box based on that.
Pseudo code:
If($default_front_page) { form_checkboxes(t('Promote to front page') /*MORE CODE*/); } else { form_checkboxes(t('Is Headline') /*MORE CODE*/); }
Long story short - The cons of the proposed change AS IS outweigh the pros.
This might work indeed.
- This might work indeed :-) + Indeed *guaranteed* to work. As would Pseudo code: If($default_front_page) { form_checkboxes(t('Promote to front page') /*MORE CODE*/); } else { /*DO NOTHING - PROBLEM SOLVED - NO SEMANTIC TRAPS - LETS STOP THIS ENTIRE THREAD*/ } andre
Changing it to "visible on frontpage" would be more user friendly. It is what the user expects to see. The word "promote" is as said confusing. Carl McDade Bèr Kessels wrote:
Hello.
Currently we use the standard flag called "promote to frontpage". This is only correct for those cases where /node is the frontpage. For all other cases, thes flag is obsolete, if not completely wrong.
I suggest the folloiwing: We stop calling /node frontpage. We call /node "headlines", in documentation and help text. By default the headlines are set to frontpage (we have that now) We rename the flag " promote" to "add to healines", or even simply "is headline"
Pro This will improve useability for all these ppl that do not use /node as frontpage. It will make our frontpage system clearer, for /node (headlines) becomes just another frontpage option.
Con: Users who are used to the current system might get confused when they do not find the "promote to frontpage flag" anymore. Regards, Bèr
participants (12)
-
Adrian Rossouw -
Andre Molnar -
Anisa -
Bèr Kessels -
Carl McDade -
Dries Buytaert -
Gabor Hojtsy -
Negyesi Karoly -
Nicholas Ivy -
Ross Kendall -
Scott Courtney -
Stefan Nagtegaal