Dear Drupal Team, My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin. Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse. It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response. In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development: * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc. * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to give new developers an introduction to the code. * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own. Saros can be useful in the following contexts: * Working on complicated problems in the code * Performing code reviews * Debugging * Code presentation * Code sprints * Introducing new developers to the project * ... What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair programming using Saros? If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me. I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback. Kind regards, Eike Starkmann Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/ Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin -- Eike Starkmann This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side: christopher.oezbek@fu-berlin.de and stephan.salinger@fu-berlin.de
Sounds very interesting :) What's the overhead like? Would it be smaller than that of VNC, as you are essentially only sending text back and forth? When both parties save an edited file, does it get stored in the local workspace as usual? Wouldn't it cause conflicts if you are using version control? -Mori Eike Starkmann wrote:
Dear Drupal Team,
My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development:
* Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc.
* Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to give new developers an introduction to the code.
* In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own.
Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
* Working on complicated problems in the code * Performing code reviews * Debugging * Code presentation * Code sprints * Introducing new developers to the project * ...
What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair programming using Saros?
If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/ Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
Aos Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:21:37 +0100 em Re: [development] Distributed Pairprogramming for Drupal Mori Sugimoto <foss@diasporan.net> escreveu: foss> foss> Sounds very interesting :) foss> What's the overhead like? Would it be smaller than that of VNC, as you foss> are essentially only sending text back and forth? foss> foss> When both parties save an edited file, does it get stored in the local foss> workspace as usual? Wouldn't it cause conflicts if you are using version foss> control? foss> foss> -Mori Not to rain on someone else's parade but you can do the same in Emacs: http://technomancy.us/129 Has you can read commiting with a version control system can be done only by one person at a time, otherwise you get conflicts. --- appa
Antonio P. P. Almeida wrote:
Aos Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:21:37 +0100 em Re: [development] Distributed Pairprogramming for Drupal Mori Sugimoto <foss@diasporan.net> escreveu:
foss> foss> Sounds very interesting :) foss> What's the overhead like? Would it be smaller than that of VNC, as you foss> are essentially only sending text back and forth? foss> foss> When both parties save an edited file, does it get stored in the local foss> workspace as usual? Wouldn't it cause conflicts if you are using version foss> control? foss> foss> -Mori
Not to rain on someone else's parade but you can do the same in Emacs:
That's true, but i'm not using emacs ;-)
Has you can read commiting with a version control system can be done only by one person at a time, otherwise you get conflicts.
This isn't a problem with Saros because after a session everybody has the same project. So i makes no difference who is committing. Greets, Eike -- Eike Starkmann This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side: christopher.oezbek@fu-berlin.de and stephan.salinger@fu-berlin.de
Mori Sugimoto wrote:
Sounds very interesting :) Thanks, would be great if it can improve your work. What's the overhead like? Would it be smaller than that of VNC, as you are essentially only sending text back and forth? It is much smaller than VNC, because only the diff of the text is send via XMPP. So only (compressed)text is send.
When both parties save an edited file, does it get stored in the local workspace as usual? Wouldn't it cause conflicts if you are using version control? Yes, the files are stored in the local workspace and are kept sync between users. The normal way you work is that the host shares his/the project with others. But everybody can also just check out the project via svn/git/etc. before they start a session. In don't know if i got your question right. Derived files aren't send via Saros, e.g. .svn isn't synchronized.
Greets, Eike -- Eike Starkmann This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side: christopher.oezbek@fu-berlin.de and stephan.salinger@fu-berlin.de
This sounds very similar to http://codesurgeonblog.com/2008/06/cola-real-time-shared-editing.html which was demonstrated last year. How is Saros related to that effort? A quick search didn't reveal much. Eike Starkmann wrote:
Dear Drupal Team,
My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development:
* Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc.
* Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to give new developers an introduction to the code.
* In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own.
Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
* Working on complicated problems in the code * Performing code reviews * Debugging * Code presentation * Code sprints * Introducing new developers to the project * ...
What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair programming using Saros?
If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/ Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
Olivier Jacquet wrote:
This sounds very similar to http://codesurgeonblog.com/2008/06/cola-real-time-shared-editing.html which was demonstrated last year. How is Saros related to that effort? A quick search didn't reveal much.
It is similar, but Saros is not related in any way to Cola. Saros is an own project done by Freie University Berlin. Have you ever worked with Cola?
Eike Starkmann wrote:
Dear Drupal Team,
My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development:
* Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc.
* Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to give new developers an introduction to the code.
* In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own.
Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
* Working on complicated problems in the code * Performing code reviews * Debugging * Code presentation * Code sprints * Introducing new developers to the project * ...
What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair programming using Saros?
If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/ Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
-- Eike Starkmann This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side: christopher.oezbek@fu-berlin.de and stephan.salinger@fu-berlin.de
Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could decide en masse to use a tool like this. Drupal is so distributed that we all have our own development workflows using a variety of tools, often in our basements rather than our offices (although there, too). So "Could use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong question to ask. That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain developers if they choose to use it. Is it language-dependent? Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not PHP, so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to one particular language's development idiosyncrasies. --Larry Garfield Eike Starkmann wrote:
Dear Drupal Team,
My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development:
* Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc.
* Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to give new developers an introduction to the code.
* In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own.
Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
* Working on complicated problems in the code * Performing code reviews * Debugging * Code presentation * Code sprints * Introducing new developers to the project * ...
What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair programming using Saros?
If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/ Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
I was thinking along the same lines. Most of the Drupal development that I've seen is either: A) Written by one person, then reviewed / improved asynchronously in the issue tracker rather than working at the same time B) Written by a team of people for a project in-house, in which case it would be the same as basically any other in-house PHP development I use Eclipse for all of my PHP development (and know some others who do as well), but I probably won't ever use something like Saros unless I got a tele-working position somewhere. Some other module / core contributors might find it useful for those tasks, but it doesn't seem like a common need. - Ken Winters On Oct 14, 2009, at 12:08 PM, larry@garfieldtech.com wrote:
Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could decide en masse to use a tool like this. Drupal is so distributed that we all have our own development workflows using a variety of tools, often in our basements rather than our offices (although there, too). So "Could use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong question to ask.
That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain developers if they choose to use it.
Is it language-dependent? Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not PHP, so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to one particular language's development idiosyncrasies.
--Larry Garfield
Eike Starkmann wrote:
Dear Drupal Team, My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin. Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse. It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response. In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development: * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc. * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to give new developers an introduction to the code. * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own. Saros can be useful in the following contexts: * Working on complicated problems in the code * Performing code reviews * Debugging * Code presentation * Code sprints * Introducing new developers to the project * ... What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair programming using Saros? If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me. I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback. Kind regards, Eike Starkmann Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/ Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
I was just looking for something like this! I'll be using this very soon on another project of mine =D As far as Drupal goes, I think that something like this would be particularly useful for core in a time like...oh,say....now. With code freeze ~38 hours away, efficiency is key to getting the patches from the exception list into core. If more than one person is working on a patch, it really makes sense to use something like this and have everyone looking at the same code at the same time so that it's not a constant string of upload to the issue queue, have a minor bug pointed out, reroll with bug fixes. Two sets of eyes on any of those patches at any one time would be awesome, and I think it would help get them ready to be committed. ----- Cameron Eagans Owner, Black Storms Studios, LLC http://www.blackstormsstudios.com On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Ken Winters <kwinters@coalmarch.com>wrote:
I was thinking along the same lines. Most of the Drupal development that I've seen is either:
A) Written by one person, then reviewed / improved asynchronously in the issue tracker rather than working at the same time B) Written by a team of people for a project in-house, in which case it would be the same as basically any other in-house PHP development
I use Eclipse for all of my PHP development (and know some others who do as well), but I probably won't ever use something like Saros unless I got a tele-working position somewhere.
Some other module / core contributors might find it useful for those tasks, but it doesn't seem like a common need.
- Ken Winters
On Oct 14, 2009, at 12:08 PM, larry@garfieldtech.com wrote:
Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could decide en
masse to use a tool like this. Drupal is so distributed that we all have our own development workflows using a variety of tools, often in our basements rather than our offices (although there, too). So "Could use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong question to ask.
That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain developers if they choose to use it.
Is it language-dependent? Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not PHP, so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to one particular language's development idiosyncrasies.
--Larry Garfield
Eike Starkmann wrote:
Dear Drupal Team, My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin. Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse. It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response. In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development: * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc. * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to give new developers an introduction to the code. * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own. Saros can be useful in the following contexts: * Working on complicated problems in the code * Performing code reviews * Debugging * Code presentation * Code sprints * Introducing new developers to the project * ... What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair programming using Saros? If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me. I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback. Kind regards, Eike Starkmann Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/ Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
Cameron Eagans wrote:
I was just looking for something like this! I'll be using this very soon on another project of mine =D
Great, is it also an Open Source Project? Would be nice if I can help you with Saros, so that I can find out how you work with it and what has to be improved in Saros
As far as Drupal goes, I think that something like this would be particularly useful for core in a time like...oh,say....now. With code freeze ~38 hours away, efficiency is key to getting the patches from the exception list into core. If more than one person is working on a patch, it really makes sense to use something like this and have everyone looking at the same code at the same time so that it's not a constant string of upload to the issue queue, have a minor bug pointed out, reroll with bug fixes. Two sets of eyes on any of those patches at any one time would be awesome, and I think it would help get them ready to be committed. ----- Now, that sounds like good scope. Would be great if you give this a try. Normally people work together with Saros and using Skype or Mumlbe for voice communication. I would offer you to join this session, to give you realtime support if something doesn't work out. What do you think about this?
Greets, Eike
On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Ken Winters <kwinters@coalmarch.com <mailto:kwinters@coalmarch.com>> wrote:
I was thinking along the same lines. Most of the Drupal development that I've seen is either:
A) Written by one person, then reviewed / improved asynchronously in the issue tracker rather than working at the same time B) Written by a team of people for a project in-house, in which case it would be the same as basically any other in-house PHP development
I use Eclipse for all of my PHP development (and know some others who do as well), but I probably won't ever use something like Saros unless I got a tele-working position somewhere.
Some other module / core contributors might find it useful for those tasks, but it doesn't seem like a common need.
- Ken Winters
On Oct 14, 2009, at 12:08 PM, larry@garfieldtech.com <mailto:larry@garfieldtech.com> wrote:
Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could decide en masse to use a tool like this. Drupal is so distributed that we all have our own development workflows using a variety of tools, often in our basements rather than our offices (although there, too). So "Could use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong question to ask.
That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain developers if they choose to use it.
Is it language-dependent? Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not PHP, so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to one particular language's development idiosyncrasies.
--Larry Garfield
Eike Starkmann wrote:
Dear Drupal Team, My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin. Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse. It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response. In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development: * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc. * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to give new developers an introduction to the code. * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own. Saros can be useful in the following contexts: * Working on complicated problems in the code * Performing code reviews * Debugging * Code presentation * Code sprints * Introducing new developers to the project * ... What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair programming using Saros? If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me. I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback. Kind regards, Eike Starkmann Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/ Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
-- Eike Starkmann This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side: christopher.oezbek@fu-berlin.de and stephan.salinger@fu-berlin.de
Ken Winters wrote:
I was thinking along the same lines. Most of the Drupal development that I've seen is either:
A) Written by one person, then reviewed / improved asynchronously in the issue tracker rather than working at the same time B) Written by a team of people for a project in-house, in which case it would be the same as basically any other in-house PHP development
If you are working just like this perhaps Saros really doesn't make sense. But what is about the issue Cameron was thinking of? Working together with Saros and getting the patches in the core?
I use Eclipse for all of my PHP development (and know some others who do as well), but I probably won't ever use something like Saros unless I got a tele-working position somewhere.
Some other module / core contributors might find it useful for those tasks, but it doesn't seem like a common need.
Would be great if there are some people, how would like to find this out. Greets, Eike
On Oct 14, 2009, at 12:08 PM, larry@garfieldtech.com wrote:
Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could decide en masse to use a tool like this. Drupal is so distributed that we all have our own development workflows using a variety of tools, often in our basements rather than our offices (although there, too). So "Could use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong question to ask.
That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain developers if they choose to use it.
Is it language-dependent? Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not PHP, so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to one particular language's development idiosyncrasies.
--Larry Garfield
Eike Starkmann wrote:
Dear Drupal Team, My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin. Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse. It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response. In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development: * Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc. * Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to give new developers an introduction to the code. * In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own. Saros can be useful in the following contexts: * Working on complicated problems in the code * Performing code reviews * Debugging * Code presentation * Code sprints * Introducing new developers to the project * ... What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair programming using Saros? If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me. I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback. Kind regards, Eike Starkmann Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/ Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
-- Eike Starkmann This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side: christopher.oezbek@fu-berlin.de and stephan.salinger@fu-berlin.de
On Oct 15, 2009, at 9:17 AM, Eike Starkmann wrote:
Ken Winters wrote:
I was thinking along the same lines. Most of the Drupal development that I've seen is either:
A) Written by one person, then reviewed / improved asynchronously in the issue tracker rather than working at the same time B) Written by a team of people for a project in-house, in which case it would be the same as basically any other in-house PHP development
If you are working just like this perhaps Saros really doesn't make sense. But what is about the issue Cameron was thinking of? Working together with Saros and getting the patches in the core?
It might work in some cases, but I suspect it won't reach wide adoption. Time is very tight, so any delays messing with connection problems, etc. aren't really acceptable. So, both parties would need to have already used it in the past and frequently for it to be usable during crunch time. - Ken Winters
Ken Winters wrote:
On Oct 15, 2009, at 9:17 AM, Eike Starkmann wrote:
Ken Winters wrote:
I was thinking along the same lines. Most of the Drupal development that I've seen is either:
A) Written by one person, then reviewed / improved asynchronously in the issue tracker rather than working at the same time B) Written by a team of people for a project in-house, in which case it would be the same as basically any other in-house PHP development
If you are working just like this perhaps Saros really doesn't make sense. But what is about the issue Cameron was thinking of? Working together with Saros and getting the patches in the core?
It might work in some cases, but I suspect it won't reach wide adoption. Time is very tight, so any delays messing with connection problems, etc. aren't really acceptable. So, both parties would need to have already used it in the past and frequently for it to be usable during crunch time.
That's true, you don't want people playing around with new tools while crunch time, but at some point you have to start, perhaps after the crunch time ;-) Greets, Eike -- Eike Starkmann This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side: christopher.oezbek@fu-berlin.de and stephan.salinger@fu-berlin.de
larry@garfieldtech.com wrote:
Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could decide en masse to use a tool like this. Drupal is so distributed that we all have our own development workflows using a variety of tools, often in our basements rather than our offices (although there, too). So "Could use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong question to ask.
I know that there is nobody like an manager in an office to tell the people what tool to use while developing, my question is if there are workflows in which Saros might improve the development, for example if there are a couple of people how can "meet" within Saros and do pair reviews or just working at the module together. At least this is also something I would like to find out, if you say "No, we cannot use this because we are all working too distributed and in different time zones" this is a result for me but I strongly believe that it can be done and improve development, but it also depends in the workflows you have.
That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain developers if they choose to use it.
Of course the developer himself has to choose it.
Is it language-dependent? Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not PHP, so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to one particular language's development idiosyncrasies.
Saros is not language dependent, as far as other plugins are following the eclipse guidelines. For PHP we have tested PDT, Aptana, Zent and PHPeclipse. We have a full overview on this page: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin If you would like to give Saros a try and something is missing, please let me know and we will try to but it in the next release. Greets, Eike
--Larry Garfield
Eike Starkmann wrote:
Dear Drupal Team,
My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development:
* Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc.
* Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to give new developers an introduction to the code.
* In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own.
Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
* Working on complicated problems in the code * Performing code reviews * Debugging * Code presentation * Code sprints * Introducing new developers to the project * ...
What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair programming using Saros?
If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/ Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
-- Eike Starkmann This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side: christopher.oezbek@fu-berlin.de and stephan.salinger@fu-berlin.de
Eike, this sounds pretty neat. Thanks for brining it to our attention. It would also be a good tool for training and consulting, where you could save a trip to the customer's office and work with them on code directly. Robert Douglass The RobsHouse.net Newsletter: http://robshouse.net/newsletter/robshousenet-newsletter Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/robertDouglass On Oct 15, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Eike Starkmann wrote:
larry@garfieldtech.com wrote:
Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could decide en masse to use a tool like this. Drupal is so distributed that we all have our own development workflows using a variety of tools, often in our basements rather than our offices (although there, too). So "Could use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong question to ask.
I know that there is nobody like an manager in an office to tell the people what tool to use while developing, my question is if there are workflows in which Saros might improve the development, for example if there are a couple of people how can "meet" within Saros and do pair reviews or just working at the module together. At least this is also something I would like to find out, if you say "No, we cannot use this because we are all working too distributed and in different time zones" this is a result for me but I strongly believe that it can be done and improve development, but it also depends in the workflows you have.
That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain developers if they choose to use it.
Of course the developer himself has to choose it.
Is it language-dependent? Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not PHP, so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to one particular language's development idiosyncrasies.
Saros is not language dependent, as far as other plugins are following the eclipse guidelines. For PHP we have tested PDT, Aptana, Zent and PHPeclipse. We have a full overview on this page: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin If you would like to give Saros a try and something is missing, please let me know and we will try to but it in the next release.
Greets, Eike
--Larry Garfield
Eike Starkmann wrote:
Dear Drupal Team,
My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development:
* Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc.
* Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to give new developers an introduction to the code.
* In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own.
Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
* Working on complicated problems in the code * Performing code reviews * Debugging * Code presentation * Code sprints * Introducing new developers to the project * ...
What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair programming using Saros?
If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/ Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
-- Eike Starkmann This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side: christopher.oezbek@fu-berlin.de and stephan.salinger@fu-berlin.de
Robert Douglass wrote:
Eike, this sounds pretty neat. Thanks for brining it to our attention. It would also be a good tool for training and consulting, where you could save a trip to the customer's office and work with them on code directly.
Thank you. I also thought of the scope that you can introduce newcomers to an Open Source Project more easily, by giving him/her a short code tour with Saros. But this is just my thinking, since I don't know if somebody has done this. What do you think? Greets, Eike
Robert Douglass
The RobsHouse.net Newsletter: http://robshouse.net/newsletter/robshousenet-newsletter Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/robertDouglass
On Oct 15, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Eike Starkmann wrote:
larry@garfieldtech.com wrote:
Just one point to clarify, there is no "Drupal Team" that could decide en masse to use a tool like this. Drupal is so distributed that we all have our own development workflows using a variety of tools, often in our basements rather than our offices (although there, too). So "Could use and Drupal benefit" is really the wrong question to ask.
I know that there is nobody like an manager in an office to tell the people what tool to use while developing, my question is if there are workflows in which Saros might improve the development, for example if there are a couple of people how can "meet" within Saros and do pair reviews or just working at the module together. At least this is also something I would like to find out, if you say "No, we cannot use this because we are all working too distributed and in different time zones" this is a result for me but I strongly believe that it can be done and improve development, but it also depends in the workflows you have.
That said, I'm sure such a tool would prove useful to certain developers if they choose to use it.
Of course the developer himself has to choose it.
Is it language-dependent? Vis, most Eclipse devs work on Java, not PHP, so I am always wary of tools that may end up being centric to one particular language's development idiosyncrasies.
Saros is not language dependent, as far as other plugins are following the eclipse guidelines. For PHP we have tested PDT, Aptana, Zent and PHPeclipse. We have a full overview on this page: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin If you would like to give Saros a try and something is missing, please let me know and we will try to but it in the next release.
Greets, Eike
--Larry Garfield
Eike Starkmann wrote:
Dear Drupal Team,
My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development:
* Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc.
* Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to give new developers an introduction to the code.
* In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own.
Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
* Working on complicated problems in the code * Performing code reviews * Debugging * Code presentation * Code sprints * Introducing new developers to the project * ...
What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair programming using Saros?
If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/ Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
-- Eike Starkmann This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side: christopher.oezbek@fu-berlin.de and stephan.salinger@fu-berlin.de
-- Eike Starkmann This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side: christopher.oezbek@fu-berlin.de and stephan.salinger@fu-berlin.de
On 10/15/2009 08:14 AM, Eike Starkmann wrote:
Robert Douglass wrote:
Eike, this sounds pretty neat. Thanks for brining it to our attention. It would also be a good tool for training and consulting, where you could save a trip to the customer's office and work with them on code directly.
Thank you. I also thought of the scope that you can introduce newcomers to an Open Source Project more easily, by giving him/her a short code tour with Saros. But this is just my thinking, since I don't know if somebody has done this. What do you think?
This is exactly what i find myself doing with my developers that are new to the "drupal way" I plan on installing this today and integrating it into my eclipse workflow for a test run. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Its a novel solution to an old problem of communicating via line numbers :). -mf
Michael Favia wrote:
On 10/15/2009 08:14 AM, Eike Starkmann wrote:
Robert Douglass wrote:
Eike, this sounds pretty neat. Thanks for brining it to our attention. It would also be a good tool for training and consulting, where you could save a trip to the customer's office and work with them on code directly.
Thank you. I also thought of the scope that you can introduce newcomers to an Open Source Project more easily, by giving him/her a short code tour with Saros. But this is just my thinking, since I don't know if somebody has done this. What do you think?
This is exactly what i find myself doing with my developers that are new to the "drupal way" I plan on installing this today and integrating it into my eclipse workflow for a test run. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Its a novel solution to an old problem of communicating via line numbers :). -mf Thanks for testing it, would be great if you can keep me up to date and give me some feedback.
Greets, Eike -- Eike Starkmann This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side: christopher.oezbek@fu-berlin.de and stephan.salinger@fu-berlin.de
The tool is usable, in some limited fashion - project teams etc... It is not a Drupal tool - there is no such beast - drupal is the tool itself. Having said that the irc paste combo is used exactly in the manner you suggest. Not just by the drupal crowd, but by most projects I've touched. Is there space for this tool - yes. Is it big? No. Until you can collaborate with others - eclipse, emacs, textmate, put your favourite environment, it is not going to be attractive. People don't like to be dependent on a specific platform. Everyone has their own.
Vladimir Zlatanov wrote:
The tool is usable, in some limited fashion - project teams etc... It is not a Drupal tool - there is no such beast - drupal is the tool itself.
Having said that the irc paste combo is used exactly in the manner you suggest. Not just by the drupal crowd, but by most projects I've touched.
That's a good point. So there is a need for collaborate editing or lets say realtime collaborate working, which is often done using irc, but I think that this way of collaboration can be improved.
Is there space for this tool - yes. Is it big? No. Until you can collaborate with others - eclipse, emacs, textmate, put your favourite environment, it is not going to be attractive. People don't like to be dependent on a specific platform. Everyone has their own.
So you think nobody would change their favourite environment to eclipse just because working together with Saros? That might be true, but what about doing reviews, you just have to use eclipse to do pair reviews, you don't have to switch to eclipse totally, you can keep on developing with what ever you want. Greets, Eike
-- Eike Starkmann This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side: christopher.oezbek@fu-berlin.de and stephan.salinger@fu-berlin.de
Eike Starkmann wrote:
Vladimir Zlatanov wrote:
The tool is usable, in some limited fashion - project teams etc... It is not a Drupal tool - there is no such beast - drupal is the tool itself.
Having said that the irc paste combo is used exactly in the manner you suggest. Not just by the drupal crowd, but by most projects I've touched.
That's a good point. So there is a need for collaborate editing or lets say realtime collaborate working, which is often done using irc, but I think that this way of collaboration can be improved.
Is there space for this tool - yes. Is it big? No. Until you can collaborate with others - eclipse, emacs, textmate, put your favourite environment, it is not going to be attractive. People don't like to be dependent on a specific platform. Everyone has their own.
So you think nobody would change their favourite environment to eclipse just because working together with Saros? That might be true, but what about doing reviews, you just have to use eclipse to do pair reviews, you don't have to switch to eclipse totally, you can keep on developing with what ever you want.
Greets, Eike
I've bounced between a number of different IDEs and dislike most of them. At the moment I'm using Eclipse. Really, it is NOT a casual-use tool. Especially for Drupal, it's not worth it unless you adopt it and take the time to customize it. I can't see anyone using Eclipse just for Saros and "other" for everything else. If adopted by a couple of people it could be enough to get someone to switch to Eclipse, perhaps, especially if some other Eclipse tools like Mylin had good Drupal-specific integration, but I can't see Eclipse itself as a casual-use IDE. (I say this having not tried it yet myself.) --Larry Garfield
Hi, i would like to know if anyone tried Saros and might want to give me a feedback. There were a couple of people how said that Saros might be useful for Drupal development. Perhaps we could try it for the next release. Greets, Eike Eike Starkmann wrote:
Dear Drupal Team,
My name is Eike Starkmann and I'm working working as part of the Saros Team at the Freie University in Berlin.
Saros is an Eclipse plugin for collaborative text editing and distributed pair programming, i.e. it allows two or more developers to work together in real-time on the same files. It is similar to Gobby, SubEthaEdit or Google Docs but focuses on programming in Eclipse.
It is my master thesis to figure out whether Saros is useful when developing Free/Open Source Software. I already was in contact with to other projects, for example Typo3 and got some good response.
In my opinion Drupal can benefit from Saros because I think it brings many advantages to Open Source Software development:
* Distributed Pair Programming is like a live peer review. This should help with finding good design, get rid of bugs, increase readability, etc.
* Transferring knowledge should be easier to do when more than one person look at and work with the same code. This should also help to give new developers an introduction to the code.
* In contrast to screen sharing, Saros only shares your actions inside of Eclipse with regards to the project you are both working on (think privacy) and you are still independent to explore the project on your own.
Saros can be useful in the following contexts:
* Working on complicated problems in the code * Performing code reviews * Debugging * Code presentation * Code sprints * Introducing new developers to the project * ...
What do you think? Could you and Drupal benefit from doing pair programming using Saros?
If you are interested in Saros but still curious about how it works please visit our website or feel free to contact me.
I hope you will find Saros useful and give me feedback.
Kind regards, Eike Starkmann
Website: https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPP Update Site: http://dpp.sf.net/update Saros @ SF: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dpp/ Programming Languages Supported by Saros : https://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/w/SE/DPPCompatiblePlugin
-- Eike Starkmann This message is part of my Master thesis research. Feel free to contact my advisors in case of inappropriate behavior on my side: christopher.oezbek@fu-berlin.de and stephan.salinger@fu-berlin.de
participants (10)
-
Antonio P. P. Almeida -
Cameron Eagans -
Eike Starkmann -
Ken Winters -
larry＠garfieldtech.com -
Michael Favia -
Mori Sugimoto -
Olivier Jacquet -
Robert Douglass -
Vladimir Zlatanov