HTML e-mail (was Re: Chaos Tool installation problem)
On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 7:53 AM, Ms. Nancy Wichmann <nan_wich@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Yes, create an issue at http://drupal.org/project/issues/ctools.
Nancy
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
Nancy, Please refrain from sending HTML e-mail to lists. It is not *recommended*, often discouraging to read your reply though it is valuable. I hope the list moderators will look into it (if anyone around). -- Sivaji
sivaji j.g wrote:
Please refrain from sending HTML e-mail to lists. It is not *recommended*, often discouraging to read your reply though it is valuable. I hope the list moderators will look into it (if anyone around). This is a losing battle. If mailing lists are offered as support forums for the public, it must be recognized that many, if not most, email programs by default send html or rtf emails, or they are using web email such as gmail or yahoo that have prominent formatting buttons and actually encourage formatted emails. And end-users are largely unaware of what the differences are, and how to create a plain-text email, and should not have to study up on this to discuss things with a community.
I used to be a heavy-duty plain-text email evangelist. I gave up on this sort of purist approach maybe 10 years ago, when I got tired of dealing with my clients sending me inline responses to my questions with notes such as "my responses are in blue". I switched to an html-capable email client (T'bird, now Postbox) and have never looked back. Anyway, the person you chose to pick on does use Yahoo mail which can be determined by exposing the full headers of her messages and looking at the X-Mailer value, and she did NOT send an html email, it was sent as Content-Type: multipart/mixed ... which is actually the de facto standard for a long time now. If your email app has trouble displaying the plain-text portion of a multipart/mixed message, maybe look around at other email programs. kazar
Il 09/05/2011 11:25, adept techlists - kazar ha scritto:
sivaji j.g wrote:
Please refrain from sending HTML e-mail to lists. It is not *recommended*, often discouraging to read your reply though it is valuable. I hope the list moderators will look into it (if anyone around). This is a losing battle. If mailing lists are offered as support forums for the public, it must be recognized that many, if not most, email programs by default send html or rtf emails, or they are using web email such as gmail or yahoo that have prominent formatting buttons and actually encourage formatted emails. And end-users are largely unaware of what the differences are, and how to create a plain-text email, and should not have to study up on this to discuss things with a community.
I used to be a heavy-duty plain-text email evangelist. I gave up on this sort of purist approach maybe 10 years ago, when I got tired of dealing with my clients sending me inline responses to my questions with notes such as "my responses are in blue". I switched to an html-capable email client (T'bird, now Postbox) and have never looked back.
Anyway, the person you chose to pick on does use Yahoo mail which can be determined by exposing the full headers of her messages and looking at the X-Mailer value, and she did NOT send an html email, it was sent as Content-Type: multipart/mixed ... which is actually the de facto standard for a long time now. If your email app has trouble displaying the plain-text portion of a multipart/mixed message, maybe look around at other email programs.
kazar
There are loads of reasons why HTML messages are not good for mailing lists. See [0] for some examples. There's also an rfc about messaging which i think would be pretty interesting for some of the members of this mailing list [1]. Simply saying "omg it's 2011, get an html e-mail client!1!!!!!" is not an answer, because it's not a logic argument, and i could just reply on the same line: "omg it's 2011, learn to configure your e-mail client properly!". HTML emails sent to mailing lists are just plain rude, IMO. It's even worse when there's people asking you to switch to plain text messages. [0] http://pyropus.ca/personal/writings/nomime.html [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 -- Davide Mirtillo
Interesting, Davide, because your email arrived in HTML format. Frankly, I think the prefernce is primarily a matter of opinion. I prefer to receinve the message with the formatting that the author intended. Further, when one sends links (as you did), I like to be able to just click, rather than copy, open a window, and paste. Further, I prefer it when one edits the email to which one is responding so that I don't have to re-read through the whole thread again. But then I also prefer GUIs to CLI. I guess I'm just old fashioned. ;-) Nancy E. Wichmann, PMP Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr. ----- Original Message ----
From: Davide Mirtillo <davide@evnetwork.it> There are loads of reasons why HTML messages are not good for mailing lists. See [0] for some examples. There's also an rfc about messaging which i think would be pretty interesting for some of the members of this mailing list [1].
Simply saying "omg it's 2011, get an html e-mail client!1!!!!!" is not an answer, because it's not a logic argument, and i could just reply on the same line: "omg it's 2011, learn to configure your e-mail client properly!".
HTML emails sent to mailing lists are just plain rude, IMO. It's even worse when there's people asking you to switch to plain text messages.
[0] http://pyropus.ca/personal/writings/nomime.html [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
Il 09/05/2011 15:37, Ms. Nancy Wichmann ha scritto:
Interesting, Davide, because your email arrived in HTML format.
Did it? I'm pretty sure i sent it in plain text. Can you forward me (privately) the headers so i can have a look?
Frankly, I think the prefernce is primarily a matter of opinion. I prefer to receinve the message with the formatting that the author intended.
Well yeah, you can read the message the way the "author" formatted it, but i'd rather not. Most people are not typographers and/or have really poor taste/ability in formatting text.
Further, when one sends links (as you did), I like to be able to just click, rather than copy, open a window, and paste.
All of the clients i've used so far are turning links into clickable ones for plain text mails. Same with email addresses in the text. It's a really basic feature for a GUI client.
Further, I prefer it when one edits the email to which one is responding so that I don't have to re-read through the whole thread again.
That is also one of the reasons why "top posting" is a bad idea, it makes the conversation really hard to follow for somebody that did not read all of the previous mails in the thread, for example (imagine people browsing the archives). Trimming the mail is actually a really good idea, though.
But then I also prefer GUIs to CLI. I guess I'm just old fashioned. ;-)
I'm not using a cli either, my desktop client is Thunderbird, so i can read HTML mails just fine. Can't say the same about my mobile client, though: HTML mails are often a pain to read on devices with a small screen. Anyway, it's just a matter of preference. Some people prefer richer text formats, at the expense of compatibility and accessibility of messages with different clients. Some other people like you will be nice and smart enough to comply with formatting requests coming from other list users, but this doesn't happen every time - unless the list manager forces users to do so. -- Davide Mirtillo
It is almost certainly Yahoo email that is turning it into HTML, because this one was as well. But I have deleted it already. The GUI/CLI mention was not meant to say you were using CLI. It was that so many people say you aren't a "real Drupaller" unless you use Drush (CLI) or do Git via a CLI. I choose not to; that is my preference. Likewise, I prefer "top posting" because I can get right to the most current part without scrolling. I would imagine smart phone users would prefer that as well. I don't have one, so I don't know for sure. This is one area where I think Microsoft wins. In Outlook you can set a format in the contact record. I wish Yahoo did that. It requires a conscious effort in Yahoo, which I don't always think about since 90% of my contacts prefer HTML. Nancy Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Ms. Nancy Wichmann <nan_wich@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Further, I prefer it when one edits the email to which one is responding so that I don't have to re-read through the whole thread again.
But then I also prefer GUIs to CLI. I guess I'm just old fashioned. ;-)
To put it in optimistic sense, you are motivated to learn the best practices of mailing list. Cheers :-) -- Sivaji
Oh please! That might have been true back in 1995 but today? You gotta be kidding. On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:40 AM, Davide Mirtillo <davide@evnetwork.it> wrote:
Il 09/05/2011 11:25, adept techlists - kazar ha scritto:
sivaji j.g wrote:
Please refrain from sending HTML e-mail to lists. It is not *recommended*, often discouraging to read your reply though it is valuable. I hope the list moderators will look into it (if anyone around). This is a losing battle. If mailing lists are offered as support forums for the public, it must be recognized that many, if not most, email programs by default send html or rtf emails, or they are using web email such as gmail or yahoo that have prominent formatting buttons and actually encourage formatted emails. And end-users are largely unaware of what the differences are, and how to create a plain-text email, and should not have to study up on this to discuss things with a community.
I used to be a heavy-duty plain-text email evangelist. I gave up on this sort of purist approach maybe 10 years ago, when I got tired of dealing with my clients sending me inline responses to my questions with notes such as "my responses are in blue". I switched to an html-capable email client (T'bird, now Postbox) and have never looked back.
Anyway, the person you chose to pick on does use Yahoo mail which can be determined by exposing the full headers of her messages and looking at the X-Mailer value, and she did NOT send an html email, it was sent as Content-Type: multipart/mixed ... which is actually the de facto standard for a long time now. If your email app has trouble displaying the plain-text portion of a multipart/mixed message, maybe look around at other email programs.
kazar
There are loads of reasons why HTML messages are not good for mailing lists. See [0] for some examples. There's also an rfc about messaging which i think would be pretty interesting for some of the members of this mailing list [1].
Simply saying "omg it's 2011, get an html e-mail client!1!!!!!" is not an answer, because it's not a logic argument, and i could just reply on the same line: "omg it's 2011, learn to configure your e-mail client properly!".
HTML emails sent to mailing lists are just plain rude, IMO. It's even worse when there's people asking you to switch to plain text messages.
[0] http://pyropus.ca/personal/writings/nomime.html [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
-- Davide Mirtillo -- [ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]
Davide Mirtillo <mailto:davide@evnetwork.it> May 9, 2011 6:40 AM
There are loads of reasons why HTML messages are not good for mailing lists.
What I said is "it's a losing battle." And I stand by that. Hereby sending in multi-part/mixed ;-) kazar
Davide Mirtillo <mailto:davide@evnetwork.it> May 9, 2011 6:40 AM
There are loads of reasons why HTML messages are not good for mailing lists. See [0] for some examples. by the way, that page is from, like 2003. It talks about Compuserve 4. Netscape Communicator. (is that even still available?) Regarding the scary language about html emails and attachments potentially carrying viruses, Trojans & worm -- nowadays it's at least just as likely, if not more likely, that you'll end up getting some malware on your computer just by simply visiting a web site. As for the risk involved in attachments, would you counsel everyone to never end or open attachments, then? If you would not warn against attachments, then why warn against html?
As for the issues with bandwidth and message size ... hey, read your mail via webmail and simply don't download to your computer, if your bandwidth is metered. As for message size, hell, my keyboard has a Delete key, how about yours? Anyhow. Really. I was one of the loudest plain text email evangelists. In 2000 :-) Ten years in the world of online communications is like a century in other modes of human interaction. I have never looked back. I have saved countless precious hours in my lifespan by NOT having to use equal signs and dashes and create phony boxes and other ways of making a long plain text email bearable to read. Throw in a little bolding or a larger text size and that sure sets off a section subhead nicely. Sorry, but I will never see this as being a problem.
There's also an rfc about messaging which i think would be pretty interesting for some of the members of this mailing list [1].
Um. That's from 1995. Even the Wikipedia page on that RFC mentions that these community rules change in practice, are "in flux". And the page doesn't even mention formatted email (i don't think, just scanned quickly).
Simply saying "omg it's 2011, get an html e-mail client!1!!!!!" is not an answer, because it's not a logic argument, and i could just reply on the same line: "omg it's 2011, learn to configure your e-mail client properly!".
My only point in my earlier message was, again, this is a losing battle. I also think it would be much nicer of folks *requested* plain text emails rather than instruct or demand folks to learn how to send them. omg, it's not 1995 anymore, Either get an html capable email client or just delete everything that's not plain-text ... :-) kazar
+1. One of the links was from 1996! Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: adept techlists - kazar <techlists@ade.pt> Sender: support-bounces@drupal.org Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 15:49:54 To: <support@drupal.org> Reply-To: support@drupal.org Subject: Re: [support] HTML e-mail (was Re: Chaos Tool installation problem) -- [ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]
Il 11/05/2011 21:49, adept techlists - kazar ha scritto:
Simply saying "omg it's 2011, get an html e-mail client!1!!!!!" is not an answer, because it's not a logic argument, and i could just reply on the same line: "omg it's 2011, learn to configure your e-mail client properly!".
My only point in my earlier message was, again, this is a losing battle. I also think it would be much nicer of folks *requested* plain text emails rather than instruct or demand folks to learn how to send them.
omg, it's not 1995 anymore, Either get an html capable email client or just delete everything that's not plain-text ... :-)
As i said, i can read html mails just fine, i just find them way harder to speedread (and ugly as hell), since the formatting is always different and people in this list keep top-posting and embedding remote images in their signatures. You make people NOT want to use the list by doing as you link because "it's a losing war". I'm subscribed to other software and support mailing lists, and people happily comply with the so-called netiquette. Take debian-user for example: http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/05/threads.html Changing a setting in your e-mail client to send plaintext mails only to this address does not cost you anything, arguing about it is a waste of time, but the argument has been brought up by other users who, like you, are trying to use this mailing list, which is a service provided by the community, for the community. You can send flashing-and-pink-comic-sans-html-formatted mails to all of your private contacts as far as i'm concerned, but please be respectful about other people requests in here. -- Davide Mirtillo
Davide Mirtillo wrote:
As i said, i can read html mails just fine, i just find them way harder to speedread (and ugly as hell), since the formatting is always different and people in this list keep top-posting and embedding remote images in their signatures.
The mailman software can be configured to limit to just the plain/text part if the moderators feel that it is important or to convert text/html to plain/text. I certainly don't disagree with Davide but let's agree to stop the battering and agree that the administrators have a choice to accept the multipart mail. -- Earnie -- http://progw.com -- http://www.for-my-kids.com
Earnie Boyd <mailto:earnie@users.sourceforge.net> May 12, 2011 1:00 PM
let's agree to stop the battering and agree that the administrators have a choice to accept the multipart mail.
thank you! Sent in plain text this time :-D kazar
Thank you, Kazar, for your defense. But actually, I do use Yahoo mail because Yahoo bought Bellsouth's email several years ago (fortunately, because I've moved several times and it is a pain to switch when one has so much invested in an email address). Yes, I had to study to find out how to switch, even though it is rather obvious now. But the main point is that if Yahoo receives HTML mail, it wants to send HTML; and likewise with plain text. So if plain text is what the "list" wants, it should send that. Since the list sends in HTML, I, therefore take it that the list wants HTML. These Drupal lists often contain code snippets, which are frequently formatted to distinguish them from descriptive text. Plain text removes that distinction and can make the whole post more difficult to read. Nancy Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr. ________________________________ From: adept techlists - kazar sivaji j.g wrote:
Please refrain from sending HTML e-mail to lists. It is not *recommended*, often discouraging to read your reply though it is valuable. I hope the list moderators will look into it (if anyone around). This is a losing battle. If mailing lists are offered as support forums for the public, it must be recognized that many, if not most, email programs by default send html or rtf emails, or they are using web email such as gmail or yahoo
Anyway, the person you chose to pick on does use Yahoo mail
On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Ms. Nancy Wichmann <nan_wich@bellsouth.net> wrote:
These Drupal lists often contain code snippets, which are frequently formatted to distinguish them from descriptive text. Plain text removes that distinction and can make the whole post more difficult to read.
This is not a solid reason to use HTML format. Mailing lists recommends to use drupalbin like service for this matter. -- Sivaji
participants (7)
-
adept techlists - kazar -
Davide Mirtillo -
Earnie Boyd -
Ms. Nancy Wichmann -
sivaji j.g -
tonio -
tony maciejowski