[consulting] Estimation-Blowout case-studies wanted

Thu Mar 26 18:06:59 UTC 2009

Thanks both to Robert and Chris for their replies.

This thread was started as a question of how to squeeze more out of
developers. The language of the thread is couched in foreman's language.

That's what I am objecting to, for several reasons.

I am not a poor man. I am earning better than ever. But my hourly rate is
going down, and my working conditions are going down, and as one individual
I am powerless to stop it.

It is the success that is the problem here, especially since as the crisis
deepens, there will be less work and we will still be stuck with the lower
rates.

The topic of the thread is best answered by making for strong client
participation in the project itself and for a strong test-driven approach; I
am tired of clients simultaneously asking me "when it will be finished"
while they refuse to take delivery. I adore clients who participate shoulder
to shoulder with me.

The problem of rates is an objective one. Yes, we can bargain on an
individual basis, and obviously, without an alternative, that is what I do.

But the Babylonian and Greek and Roman slave states gave way to feudalism,
and feudalism gave way to capitalism, and now capitalism cannot feed the
slaves...

We need to do better, and we could do better, is what I am saying, through
organization among ourselves. In practical terms, it means that we should
take a workers view of things and not an "executive" (Enron, and now AIG)
view of things as a basis for our discussion of productivity.

The executive view of things shows every day the face of its historical
decrepitude.

The workers view of things, shoulder to shoulder, is where efficiency can
come from, not from the warmongers and the Katrina salvation army.

Victor Kane
http://awebfactory.com.ar
http://projectflowandtracker

2009/3/26 Robert Foley <robertfoleyjr at gmail.com>

> Hello Victor,
> I totally understand your point and unfortunately don't have any
> recommendations on how to address it. Everyone world-wide is being affected
> by the US economic down-turn (ironic that this highlights how interconnected
> we are as a people). In my career I have been through three recessions none
> as bad as this one but similar in the symptoms and pains many are
> experiencing today.
>
> To show a correlation, in today's market if I were a home buyer it would be
> a buyer's market (for those that actually have the money to buy a home).
> Unfortunately in today's climate it is an employer's (and it is a client's)
> market. Employers can be very picky who they employ for work, likewise
> client's can also be picky. Some focus on the lowest cost possible, while
> others focus on quality and your ability to execute the work required. This
> type of climate puts more pressure for the professionals to out-perform
> those they are competing against, to require you or I to increase the amount
> of skills we have to offer and the experience to back it up. No matter what
> their will always be people who either have more experience or are willing
> to do the work for less then you. The key is finding employers or clients
> who see your value and agree to pay what you are asking for.
>
> Unfortunately in a Employer's market most (not all) will use this advantage
> to lower salaries, to remove employee's benefits, and to generally treat you
> like dirt. I know, I have worked for those employers in the end however
> (like the elephant) I never forget their actions. For me, (if it is
> something I can accept in the short-term) I put up with the employer's BS,
> their rude or down right despicable behavior. What I learn is how good are
> they as an employer during this time, if they treat me badly then I don't
> want to work with them in the good times (when it is an employee's market)
> karma can be a bitch.
>
> So to me the root of your statements seems to want to level the playing
> field between different developers to try and set a standard rate. I wish
> you luck, but ultimately that will fail, not because you don't lack the
> desire to make it happen. Simply because many people (I would be guilty as
> well) who may have more skill will charge more and may try harder to get a
> job then others. Some may also accept loosing what creature comforts they
> have and live lean until things get better.
>
> Simply put, all of us are competing in a global market and just setting
> your rates will not guarantee anything. What does matter is your ability to
> market yourself, you reputation, your skills, and your experience. I am not
> claiming you lack any of these, just simply that we all need to improve one
> or all of these to be competitive and to become better professionals. I
> firmly believe (and it has suited me well in my 16 years in the tech
> business) if you work very hard as fine tuning your skills and work honestly
> with everyone that the money and stability will come. Sometimes that might
> mean a whole year or two with no work (as I had experienced) in others it
> may require you take a salary cut (25k like I have) but over the long-term
> of your career think about the next five to ten years. Where you want to be
> and what you need to know, who you need to know, and what experience you
> need to have to be at that position then work toward it.
>
> Rates go up and down, salaries go up and down what really matters is are
> you doing what you love (and or does your job allow you fund that which you
> love)? If not, then keep searching for another career or job or idea that
> will.
>
>
> 2009/3/26 Victor Kane <victorkane at gmail.com>
>
>> Thanks for asking, Sam.
>>
>> The problem is that there is a huge crisis in the regime in which we live.
>> As a result, there is a huge flux from propietary to open source products,
>> both in terms of software and programmers.
>>
>> This is "good" in the sense that there is suddenly more work than we know
>> what to do with.
>>
>> This is "bad" however in that it is part of a broader attack on working
>> class standard of living, and will lead to lowering of rates and in the
>> short term a huge deterioration in our working conditions.
>>
>> This vision comes from taking the situation and analyzing it both
>> historically and in terms of what is really going on beneath the surface,
>> what is really driving things: capitalist crisis, war, unemployment and
>> superexploitation.
>>
>> In past times, these were philosophical problems. But now, they are
>> killing us. In Argentina there is a dengue epidemic that has affected 7,000
>> people, just to name one single aspect of the deterioration of living
>> standards.
>>
>> In Drupalland, we will have to work more to earn less. And even if this
>> doesn't happen in the very short term, working conditions are bad and
>> worsening, and there is very little individuals can do to solve this
>> problem.
>>
>> That is the problem we need to fix.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>> 2009/3/26 Sam Cohen <sam at samcohen.com>
>>
>> Victor,
>>>
>>> What exactly is the problem you are trying to fix?
>>>
>>> It seems that right now there is an enormous amount of work, enormous
>>> opportunities, and for the most part, the pay, at least the pay potential is
>>> really quite good.  Drupalers are in high demand.
>>>
>>> Not sure I get it -- unless your post was tongue in cheek.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>> 2009/3/26 Victor Kane <victorkane at gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Fascinating discussion.
>>>>
>>>> But to all you Adam Smith people, I have to say:
>>>>
>>>> There is no such thing as the individual small producer: there are
>>>> factories and workers, monopolies, and wannabe monopolies, and you may think
>>>> you are free and individual, but we are all workers in a factory, and the
>>>> bosses are driving down wages and salaries as we speak.
>>>>
>>>> Our real problem is to band together and demand a minimum wage for each
>>>> category.
>>>>
>>>> We need a union.
>>>>
>>>> Of course we have a right to publish our minimum wage! Of course we have
>>>> a right to declare rates beneath which no-one should be accepting work.
>>>>
>>>> So:
>>>>
>>>> * All certification under control of the website application developers
>>>> union (we can affiliate with writers, with communications, etc...)
>>>> * No to monopoly certification programs and other attempts to create
>>>> monopolies with the aim of driving down rates.
>>>> * Minimum wage for each category.
>>>> * Drupal free always as in beer and speech. Drupal development open to
>>>> all.
>>>>
>>>> Only a uniion can do that.
>>>>
>>>> Otherwise we'll all be washing dishes in Soho, because it's a better
>>>> paid job than developing websites.
>>>>
>>>> Consultants, unite! You have nothing to lose except your WSOD.
>>>>
>>>> Victor Kane
>>>> http://awebfactory.com.ar
>>>> http://projectflowandtracker.com
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Michael Prasuhn <mike at mikeyp.net>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I see the logical fallacy that you present here, but I think that
>>>>> misses the most poignant part of the message you are replying to and that
>>>>> is:
>>>>>
>>>>> Publishing your rates != Agreeing to set minimum prices.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 25, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Cary Gordon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  There is a logical fallacy in there. What you are really claiming is
>>>>>> that rate disclosure does not directly lead to a monopoly, therefor it
>>>>>> is either legal or somehow not as illegal as other collusive behavior.
>>>>>> We could have a long discussion of what type of fallacy it is. I go
>>>>>> for begging the question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Feel free to disclose your rates. On advice of counsel, I won't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cary
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Mehboob Alam <malam at thinkx.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I'm far from convinced that its illegal to share your rates with
>>>>>>>> your competitors,one to one or on a mailing list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If GM, Ford, Chrysler and Toyota agree to set prices, that's
>>>>>>> "collusion"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If JetBlue, SouthWest, Alaska and others decide to set minimum prices
>>>>>>> for certain routes, that's "collusion"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If several LCD manufacturers agree to fix their prices, and that
>>>>>>> ended
>>>>>>> up costing Apple a lot of money due to the lack of competitive
>>>>>>> bidding, that's "collusion".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Publishing your rates here.. not so much. The clients have a choice
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> thousands of possible vendors for these kinds of projects, and it
>>>>>>> would be difficult to set minimum prices.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And then, anyone who desperately needs the work can easily low-ball
>>>>>>> their rates to get the project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, fire away.. :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> just my opinion..
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> consulting mailing list
>>>>>>> consulting at drupal.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cary Gordon
>>>>>> The Cherry Hill Company
>>>>>> http://chillco.com
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> consulting mailing list
>>>>>> consulting at drupal.org
>>>>>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________
>>>>> Michael Prasuhn
>>>>> 503.488.5433 office
>>>>> 714.356.0168 cell
>>>>> 503.661.7574 home
>>>>> mike at mikeyp.net
>>>>> http://mikeyp.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> consulting mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Robert Foley Jr
> Business Analyst | Information Architect | Application Architect
> robertfoleyjr at gmail.com
> http://www.robertfoleyjr.com
>
>
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