[consulting] "Socialist" created value-added list for capitalists $29.99/month; no socialist ranting

[Greg Holsclaw]

It isn't a free speech issue it is an appropriateness issue. If support questions aren't for the dev list, and dev issues shouldn't be on the infrastructure list, then the consulting list (to help Drupal consultants and service/hosting providers do their thing) may also have inappropriate items. 

These are important items and i can capably argue both viewpoints but I agree this isn't the right forum. 

It is like a guy who has the right of way on a crosswalk but doesn't look both ways and is still hit by a car. He had the right of way, but he is still dead. 

If you kill this list with free speech as contributors abandon it, what was gained? Sort of a pyrrhic victory.   

What problem was solved with the item that started this? What new technique or process was describe?

Both sides have mostly posted un-sourced and un-referenced quotes or ideas to back up their point of view. The opening item is completely un- sourced. It lists item after item of why the US has bad employment practices with no references. 

If this list is a social policy think tank then reference your quotes. 

If it is a Drupal consulting list, then let's talk about how Drush and Aegir should be used by every Drupal house to speed up their Drupal construction. 

Greg

Sent from my Mobile Office

On Aug 22, 2010, at 2:12 PM, Sami Khan <sami at etopian.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 16:23:46 -0400, "Andrew R. Kelly"
> <arkelly at cognisync.com> wrote:
>> +1.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> We're abandoning this list if this doesn't stop.
> 
> Us "socialists" are forming a for-pay service (mailing list) for all the
> capitalists who don't wish to discuss important social issues on this list.
> It costs $29.95 per month. It has none of this socialist ranting against
> the virtues of capitalism that you don't want to read and only answers your
> questions. 
> 
> It also has a nice monetized cost associated with it, because we wish to
> extract every dollar of value from all the value we add to your life. Our
> costs to house and feed ourselves and our families are rather massive, and
> we would like to do that.
> 
> All of us socialists who answer your questions for FREE also enjoy our
> FREE speech; aint that a bitch? 
> 
> If you want a capitalist list, we would be happy to provide one for a nice
> fat fee! Else, quit trying to stifle free speech or leave. We are competent
> enough to help ourselves... We created Drupal, we write the code, we know
> our shit!
> 
> Sami
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: consulting-bounces at drupal.org
> [mailto:consulting-bounces at drupal.org]
>> On Behalf Of David Hazel
>> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:17 PM
>> To: sami.khan at etopian.com; A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal
>> service/hosting providers
>> Subject: Re: [consulting] American Labour Laws & Future of Labour
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Heinz you've been misinformed regarding this list.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> It's not the "consulting" forum. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> It's the "my country/government/social agenda/values" are better than
> your
>> "country/government/social agenda/values" rant forum. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> But don't feel bad, I think most of us inadvertently signed up to the
> wrong
>> list. Maybe someone should fix the title.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> But that's just my delusional two cents (or whatever the appropriate
>> denomination for your preferred currency is).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Dave
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:00 AM, Sami Khan <sami at etopian.net> wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:30:37 -0400, "Heinz D. Wegener"
>> <heinz at simplexcreative.com> wrote:
>>> It's amazing to me how much this "consulting" forum is used to debate
>>> socialism vs. capitalism. Socialism is completely counter-intuitive to
>>> being a consultant. Being a consultant implies that you are interested
>> in
>>> finding jobs that will make you money so that you can support your
>> family.
>>> You are participating in capitalism. This hatred of corporations is
>>> foolishness. Success is not evil. Profit is not evil.
>> 
>> If the world was as simple as you make it out to be, and all these ideas
>> and thoughts can simply be resolved by consulting a few history books
> and
>> chanting some mantras about how great everything is... then I might
> agree
>> with you. The real world is a complex place, if you look around a bit
>> outside of your own life and maybe your circle of friends -- or if you
> have
>> ever been down on your luck, you would understand.
>> 
>> The US has a large underclass, approximately 40 million people; these
>> people live below the poverty line. The ideas and the policies are
> largely
>> to blame for these people being put in their position and not being
>> "successful". Profits are not the problem, but when 30% of the economy
> is
>> based on financial products for simply allocating money, something is
>> definitely wrong there.
>> 
>> If the things continue to go the way that they have been, this
> underclass
>> will grow and there is no guarantee that you or someone you care about
>> won't end up in it. Entrepreneurship is contingent upon the economy, and
>> the economy is contingent upon the middle class for people such as
>> yourself. Supporting policies that increase the size of the middle class
>> and make sure that they have enough money, guarantee that there are
>> opportunities to be had. That's the basics. Beyond that there are
> questions
>> of morality. Is success for some necessary, sure. But to what extent?
>> Unlimited profits? What if that means that the size of the underclass
>> grows, from 40 million to say 80 million or above. Is that a good way to
>> support "success"?
>> 
>> There are some who simply debate to win... that is not the aim here. The
>> aim is to explore where one stands and see where there are in relation
> to
>> everyone else. In doing that we create possibilities for futures, rather
>> than leaving that task to those who are "successful"... because all that
>> they want is to be more "successful". Which means that they want the
>> underclass size to grow.
>> 
>> You are simply self-concerned with your life, and because things are
> good
>> for you and those that you care about, you rather ignore that there are
> any
>> problems... That sort of reactive auto-control approach is what put us
> in
>> the economic situation that we are in right now.
>> 
>> 
>>> My father and his family did not emigrate from Germany to America to
>>> experience despair and normalcy. They came with hope, and they had
>> nothing.
>>> They were hard working people with a desire to succeed in one of the
>> best
>>> countries in the world. My father was 6-years-old when they came to
> this
>>> country. He worked his ass off with the goal of becoming successful and
>> was
>>> motivated to do so partially because kids would call him a Nazi in
>> school
>>> just for being from Germany. And guess what? He succeeded. And guess
>> what
>>> else? He is the most generous, giving man I know, and has an amazing
>> heart
>>> for people. There's your evil capitalist.
>> 
>> The Germans are doing fine at this point. So you would be fine whether
> you
>> were in the US or in Germany; probably better if they are from West
>> Germany. Anecdotes like this about the reaffirmation of American Dream
> tell
>> us nothing about the actual situation on the ground. Certain statistics
>> paint a different picture. The truth lies somewhere in between.
>> 
>> If you want some anecdotes of people who are not as lucky as you or your
>> family, look here:
>> http://www.youtube.com/user/invisiblepeopletv
>> 
>> 
>>> My father-in-law experienced the same type of success after his family
>>> fled from Cuba. Both he and my father both become owners of successful
>>> companies. With socialism comes the death of that hope that most
>> immigrants
>>> had back in the 40's and 50's and still have today.
>> 
>> I think that hope is dead already and it's because of the financial
>> banksters, who are motivated by capitalism. It may be the case that
> those
>> times are gone for good and we will have to settle for some more social
>> solutions or else face being in the underclass of capitalism.
>> 
>> 
>>> Study your history, and
>>> learn the truth yourself. Entrepreneurs were, and continue to be, some
>> of
>>> the primary contributors to America's success.
>> 
>> I am happy for your family. I also don't support totalitarian Cuba, or
> any
>> totalitarian socialist economy.
>> 
>>> 
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