[consulting] Suggestion for Dries and Moderators: New Politics List

Mon Aug 23 08:22:06 UTC 2010

Hi Adam,

I'd like to add in that I was inspired by the conversation to go do
documentation about how Drupal Workers could form a cooperative.

http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-worker-cooperative

We've had a number of folks join the group and I hope you will, too.

I don't think that prohibiting all "organizing related" traffic is
your intention with moderation.

It's still permitted to link link link(?):
http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-worker-cooperative

Linking this within the list is appropriate, no?  To post links about
discussions on GDO that we see as relevant but tangential, yes?

Perhaps, then, if this is okay, then what we have here is a bit of
etiquette.  You can use the list to link to tangential and relevant
things on GDO?

Then it is up to everyone else to hold back the impulse to jump in and
make the thread grow.  Instead, head over to the link?  Can we
self-moderate around something like this?

Alex

On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 4:15 AM, Adam Mordecai <mordecai at advomatic.com> wrote:
> You seem to be missing my point entirely. So I'll be clearer. YOU, Sami Khan, should start a Drupal Organizing  and Workers Rights group. YOU, Sami Khan, the guy who perpetually talks about and who is passionate about the subject and who likes to lead TALKING about these issues should actually DO SOMETHING around these issues and get the ball rolling by starting the group.  And actually recruit others to join the cause. Like I said, I'd actually be glad to help try and get people involved, people who could actually advise you on building a union. But it wouldn't be appropriate for me to run the group, because A. I'm management and II. my deepest passions lie elsewhere.  It seems to be the most important thing in your life, so it would make sense that the person with the passion and drive to do it would be the one to run it.
>
> I'll be spending my time helping unions the best way I know how which is building their websites and advising them on strategy.
>
> I don't believe in stifling free speech, I just think that there's appropriate venues for specific topics. I talk about vampires in the true blood and Buffy list, I talk about politics on my political list, I talk about unions on my union list and I talk about Drupal in the Drupal list.
>
> I didn't say people weren't getting their questions answered, I said list GROWTH could be hampered if new consultants come look at the archive and all they see is a politics list an decide not to join. After all the lists core mission includes "
>>>>> and hopefully, to grow the number of Drupal
>>>>> consultants.
>
> So the reason I am singling you out is that you are the one with the best opportunity to actually make aomething happen rather than just talking about it.
>
> Dig?
>
> Adam Mordecai
> Partner - Advomatic, LLC
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ---------
> AIM: AdamMordecai
> Office: 212.812.4180 x101
> Cell: 646.625.9010
> Fax: 646.472.7993
> ----------
> Advomatic
> 243 5th Ave, Suite 460
> New York, NY 10016
> http://www.advomatic.com
>
>
> On Aug 22, 2010, at 7:23 PM, Sami Khan <sami at etopian.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 18:58:23 -0600, Adam Mordecai <mordecai at advomatic.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Sami,
>>>
>>> The things you are discussing and arguing about are bigger than the
>>> consulting list. They are admirable, but they would be more appropriate
>> in
>>> an actual Drupal group focused on unionizing and labor and employee
>> rights.
>>> Then people who wanted to discuss and actually ORGANIZE around the issue
>>> could. I'm a big fan of unions myself, (and many of my clients are
>> unions),
>>> but yelling past each other about socialism doesn't actually do anything
>> to
>>> actually help workers. nothing I've seen in the last few months on this
>>> list actually had any tangible results. It was just sound and fury
>>> signifying nothing.
>>
>>> Drupal group focused on unionizing and labor and employee rights.
>>
>> There is no such group. If there were then you _might_ have a valid point.
>> If you would lobby to create one and then populate it with people of whom
>> you speak, I might believe you. But there isn't and why is this addressed
>> to just me. Please address it to all the other people whose ideologies you
>> do agree with as well... who have been arguing with and against me.
>>
>>
>>> I would love to be able to point people who write about being treated
>>> poorly by company or client to Sami's working group at GDO where they
>> could
>>> find tangible answers about what recourse they had. I'd even be glad to
>>> recruit some actual union organizers to join the group and help push the
>>> cause further.
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>>>
>>> But these ongoing debates do nothing but clog the list up and make using
>>> the list for TANGIBLE best practices harder. It stifles list growth when
>>> people see 30 threads on socialism vs capitalism, and only 1 on how to
>> get
>>> their Drupal business going.
>>
>> I have yet to see where people were not getting their questions answered
>> because of the horrible long evil threads. I see absolutely no proof of
>> what you speak, whatsoever. How many poor souls have you personally helped
>> with the problem that you are so admirably attacking? I have in the past
>> week helped a Russian with the exactly problem that you mentioned. I in
>> fact got that thread started and many people answered after that. I have
>> further pointed an Indian to the Development mailing list.
>>
>>
>>> My moderation idea is not implying all emails have approval before going
>>> on list, it's more moderators warn people if they are getting way off
>>> topic, make recommendations for better places to post on certain issues,
>>> put people on probation for repeated abuses, and worst case scenario,
>> boot
>>> people when all else fails.
>>
>> Yes people need warning that this is about politics. As that does not
>> affect their lives at all... Like seriously, there is an ideological
>> problem with the way that you are perceiving the world. It is hidden in a
>> rhetoric of niceness and understanding. But ultimately the effect is the
>> same, to shut the doors of discourse in the name of order and not to
>> pollute the minds of the poor peasants with the ideas that might get them
>> organized. While at the same type saying, oh no we are not against free
>> speech... Bullshit. This is why ideologies by the way fail. Because the
>> religious zealots have already decided on the position and create baseless
>> rhetoric to defend them; and shut down any sort of discourse that
>> challenges them in the name of order.
>>
>> The majority of the group has more or less spoken. I was on topic, perhaps
>> borderline, but on topic. I regret nothing! Further, if you wish to create
>> such a mailing list, I would be happy to participate on that as well. Until
>> then, long live free speech!
>>
>>
>>> Adam Mordecai
>>> Partner - Advomatic, LLC
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> ---------
>>> AIM: AdamMordecai
>>> Office: 212.812.4180 x101
>>> Cell: 646.625.9010
>>> Fax: 646.472.7993
>>> ----------
>>> Advomatic
>>> 243 5th Ave, Suite 460
>>> New York, NY 10016
>>> http://www.advomatic.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 22, 2010, at 4:49 PM, Sami Khan <sami at etopian.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> This list aims to connect Drupal consultants, to share ideas
>>>>> and experience amongst Drupal consultants, to obtain feedback from
>>>>> Drupal consultants, and hopefully, to grow the number of Drupal
>>>>> consultants.
>>>>
>>>> When all else fails, blame the other side for being off topic.
>> Excellent,
>>>> and I will now offer a rebuttal. What we are discussing is in the realm
>>>> of
>>>> "talking shop" as business is directly effected by the economy and
>>>> politics. Consultants are potentially future employees or if they are
>> not
>>>> still concerned with how much business they are getting, the terms of
>> the
>>>> business, health insurance issues, contract disputes all of which fall
>>>> within the realm of unions, labour relations, employee rights, and so
>> on.
>>>> Whatever politics is involved with that is then contingent to the
>>>> business
>>>> that these consultants are doing. As consultants they should know what
>>>> they
>>>> options are on whether or not to unionise, how they will be treated as
>>>> employees, and or subcontractors.
>>>>
>>>> There are players in the Drupal field who monopolize consultants. There
>>>> are predatory companies that don't give a shit about employees and
>> abuse
>>>> their employees to make a buck. So when we start talking about Brittany
>>>> Spears you can chime in again about the politics of the "Bad Apples"
>> who
>>>> wish to ruffle some feathers and bring the no good unions into the
>>>> business.
>>>>
>>>> Sami
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you went
>>>>> in the Drupal Dev IRC room and never stopped talking about how awesome
>>>> the
>>>>> latest Britney Spears album is, chx would kick you out,
>>>>
>>>> Now you are arguing to absurdity.
>>>>
>>>>> not because he
>>>>> hates your ideas (though he probably does), but because its not
>>>> appropriate
>>>>> to talk about Britney's awesome new album there. The appropriate place
>>>> for
>>>>> that is #drupal-crappypopmusic.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, your motivations, however are quite different!
>>>>
>>>> Sami
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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