[consulting] CiviCRM / Drupal integration expert

Fri May 7 03:16:11 UTC 2010

Huh...Interesting thread. (I just got space to catch up on my lists.)

CRM for nonprofits is a difficult space. You need to have lots of domain expertise to figure out an appropriate fit for the particular client, then you need to really understand the particular toolset you've chosen/recommended to be able to actually make it useful to the client. You may be a great programmer/UI guy but if you haven't worked with the range of nonprofits/NGOs that are going to use your product and understand their organizational imperatives and internal political dynamics, you will fail.

In general, one-off custom apps (i.e. "lets reinvent this in cck/views") are the WORST way to go because you've just made a decision to dump your bias/ignorance on the next consultant to work with your custom app and have committed your client to pay for it. Most folks worth their fees in this space have been around for a few years and have seen the results of their mistakes. Just because it looks simple doesn't mean it is, and it's a trap for newbies. 

CiviCRM works in a space where there is no tool that fits every organization. You don't like how it implements certain features, there's always room for more coding expertise on the CiviCRM team. There are plenty of ways to plug into the effort.

I've implemented CiviCRM in a couple small nonprofits (some paying gigs, others not) and learned very quickly not to do major customizations because of how quickly certain core structures change. Most smaller groups are pretty flexible in how they do things as long as you meet some basic requirements. Training can substitute for UI coolness. I've seen a lot of mistakes made by coders who really don't understand the institutional and programmatic imperatives that drives nonprofit CRM upgrades/conversions. They code based on what they hear from one client, only to realize that a different strategic approach (training, workflow management improvments, working with senior staff / board members on staff/resource expectations) would pay far better dividends than ajax/jquery UI whizbangery.

I think CiviCRM stacks up pretty well against the industry leaders (Raisers Edge, DonorPerfect, eTapestry, Salesforce) and blows them all away in terms of customizability and openness. 

Sure it complicated, but NGO constituency management is complicated. What works and is sufficient for a small homeless shelter or watershed protection group does not work for the Sierra Club or Planned Parenthood. There's a huge difference between groups that can't afford a full-time membership manager/fundraising director, and groups that have fundraising departments (plus separate wings for their membership development and advocacy staff). You cannot expect a simple app to serve them all any more than you can expect a single Ferrari to serve as adequate transport for a class of 4th graders to the local science museum.

CiviCRM has pretty deep roots in nonprofit/NGO CRM experience and workflows. But it still only attempts to meet the common core of shared need by nonprofit membership/development/advocacy directors.

Attempting to reinvent that wheel when you can plug into an existing project seems like folly to me (unless CRM is your hobby and you don't have to worry much about making a living). The CiviCRM team is open to new ideas (especially if you are willing to put some effort behind your words); iterates often and sometimes dramatically; understands nonprofit/NGO culture beyond the borders of the US (something that most other "leading" platforms do not), and is clearly willing to engage with members of the Drupal community as long as it's simply not talk.

I like the Drupal way, and community, and I really admire the CiviCRM way and it's community. It seems like there should be a little more effort on finding common ground in substantive areas before you start coding yet another CRM structure from the ground up.

bob

On May 6, 2010, at 10:48 AM, Matt Chapman wrote:

> Cary assessment of the situation is mostly correct. I'd only modify
> that the CiviCRM has made decided effort to get more community
> involvement in the past year. Maybe that will make for substantive
> change in CiviCRM 4.0, but even if it does, I still see plenty of
> reasons to have a pure Drupal CRM. Maybe the two can coexist like
> Ubercart and Drupal Commerce.
> 
> 
>> By the way, Matt has a placeholder page for a module called Drop CRM
>> <http://drupal.org/project/dropcrm>. Wonder what's cooking there?
>> 
> 
> What's cooking there is:  http://tinyurl.com/drupalcrm
> 
> 
> All the Best,
> 
> Matt Chapman
> Ninjitsu Web Development
> 
> --
> The contents of this message should be assumed to be Confidential, and
> may not be disclosed without permission of the sender.
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Cary Gordon <listuser at chillco.com> wrote:
>> CiviCRM has never had a relationship to with the Drupal project other
>> than the fact that CiviSpace/DeanSpace commissioned the original
>> integration.
>> 
>> The only reason anyone uses CiviCRM is because it is there. I have a
>> friend who has been involved with it since the beginning, and his
>> attitude seems to be a lot like Matt's. I read it as: the further you
>> go with it, the warmer it gets.
>> 
>> My take that it has a fundamentally flawed design, which the boss
>> thinks is the one true design pattern, database edition, and isn't
>> about to change, ever. This isn't really an open project (beyond
>> publishing the code and providing an automatic withering response to
>> any suggestion for change)?
>> 
>> Fortunately, we can accomplish an increasing amount of what CiviCRM
>> provides in Drupal. If you can meet your requirements that way, avoid
>> CiviCRM. If not, be thankful that there are folks like Matt, Rob
>> Thorne and a handful of others who are willing to make your problems
>> theirs, and prey that they don't decide to raise their rates or become
>> monks.
>> 
> 
>> Cary
>> 
>> On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Kevin Reynen <kreynen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Can we move the "I think CiviCRM should be X" conversation to a
>>> CiviCRM specific forum so lobo and co. either tell you how to make
>>> this happen or explain why won't happen?
>>> 
>>> I'd like to see CiviCRM wash my car once a week, but I keep those
>>> great ideas like that to myself until I have time or $$ to put towards
>>> making it happen.
>>> 
>>> - Kevin Reynen
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> consulting mailing list
>>> consulting at drupal.org
>>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Cary Gordon
>> The Cherry Hill Company
>> http://chillco.com
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