[consulting] Keeping Web Sites Updated

Wed May 12 12:43:05 UTC 2010

For nonprofits my firm charges a different amount for consulting and site
maintenance than we do for development. I am not a developer and we work
several small shops to get the right developers for the right projects all
of whom charge more than my nonprofit rate, that is fine. 

Firms should set their rates at what the market will pay. Once they know
what the market will pay then you have to look at costs + risks + profit and
see if those numbers are in line. I have decided that for my firm I can cut
the profit margin to almost none for our nonprofit clients in order to serve
the community and bluntly happy non profits have happy boards. 

To say that that it is wrong to look for two rates I think is an over
simplification. I know there is lots of talent in the Drupal community and
it deserves to be well compensated but if firms want to stratify what they
do because that works for their clients and their bottom line than that is
something they should do. Now, let me clarify we do not satisfy our pricing
for companies. 

In terms of finding someone I would ask other local nonprofits. I would also
see if you have an organization like Teaming 4 Technology
(http://www.t4tcolorado.org/) like we have in Denver and see if they can
recommend someone. 

Hope this adds something. 

Steve Kessler 
Denver DataMan 
303-587-4428 

-----Original Message-----
From: George Lee [mailto:georgeleejr617 at gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 6:28 AM
To: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers
Subject: Re: [consulting] Keeping Web Sites Updated

> However, funded non-profits need to find qualified Drupal professionals
who
> are known in the Drupal community. By simply checking out the
participation
> they have in the community either locally, through groups.drupal.org, or
on
> drupal.org.
> There is no intermediate ground, "it's just about maintaining web sites",
> this is tantamount to asking an electrician to come in and fix a few
outlets
> "it's just about doing a little wiring". Because people work for a living.

Let me clarify where I'm coming from and ask Victor what you're
thinking. As a strong supporter of unions -- I'm a youth worker who's
seen how the lack of unions has hurt both teenagers who are employed
and the adults who work them, and who's also seen unfortunately how
non-profits don't always respect workers needing to make a living --
your critique does resonate with me. (I don't do too much anti-war
activism also, mostly I work on campaigns to increasing funding to
stop youth violence, although I'm a huge supporter of anti-war
activism. The flyers we make we do with our own volunteer labor right
now until we get some funds and to the volume to pay a union shop to
print more.)

I've heard quotes from companies of $100, $150 an hour for work on
sites including a lot of development work. Personally I charge less
than that but at a rate I think is still fair both to me and groups I
work for. Down the road my work will be less intense development and
more about doing backups, downloading module updates, and some more
simple changes like tweaking views, adding simple blocks, etc. That
work is less complicated compared to, say, creating a module that
encrypts data in fields or adds texting capability to a web site
beyond what's in the current contributed modules.

I think (but I may be wrong) that an organization should be able to
hire at a rate less than $100-$150 an hour, especially if the bulk of
the work is on the simpler side. One shop for instance I've heard of
has a non-profit discount rate which seems reasonable. Maybe it's
actually the same rate as the more advanced work but just fewer hours
for the more simple tasks, which means a smaller overall amount; I
plan to charge the same rate for both types of work. But my worry is
that an established firm would be reluctant to take on a contract of
only a couple hours a month.

So I will reframe my question:
  - How does an organization find somebody willing to take on
contracts with few hours, involving mostly simpler tasks, and at a
rate that is fair both to them and the developer?

I still don't totally understand people's answers to this question.
I've gotten quotes from folks replying to my e-mail, so is one typical
option to write this list? Another to check out groups.drupal.org and
drupal.org, like Victor says?

Peace, community, justice,
- George

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 4:29 AM, Victor Kane <victorkane at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 10:55 AM, George Lee <georgeleejr617 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Whatever is reliable, which I would guess is the latter -- but hoping
>> there's a good way to find paid folks less intense than full-out
>> full-price web developers, since it's just about maintaining web
>> sites.
>
> Well, here's the source of the confusion in the argument that Sam Cohen
> attempted to make clear.
> Speaking as a professional Drupal consultant, I maintain without charging
> absolutely anything, about ten Drupal sites, a couple of them not so
> trivial.
> Because I am committed to their causes.
> However, funded non-profits need to find qualified Drupal professionals
who
> are known in the Drupal community. By simply checking out the
participation
> they have in the community either locally, through groups.drupal.org, or
on
> drupal.org.
> There is no intermediate ground, "it's just about maintaining web sites",
> this is tantamount to asking an electrician to come in and fix a few
outlets
> "it's just about doing a little wiring". Because people work for a living.
> I see you sign saying "Peace, community, justice".
> Well, George, I trust that your antiwar flyers have a Union label on them?
> Unfortunately we Drupal professionals still don't have a union. But we do
> work for a living. And funded non-profits would want to respect working
> people, first of all, I would imagine.
> Victor Kane
> http://awebfactory.com.ar
> http://projectflowandtracker.com
> "Let the capitalists pay for the crisis, not the working class"
>
>>
>> Peace, community, justice,
>> - George
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 9:48 AM, Sam Cohen <sam at samcohen.com> wrote:
>> > George,
>> >
>> > Are you asking how these nonprofits can find volunteers or how they can
>> > find
>> > paid contractors?
>> >
>> > Sam
>> >
>> > On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 9:40 AM, George Lee <georgeleejr617 at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi all,
>> >>
>> >> Scenario: Imagine a small non-profit working to keep its web site
>> >> updated - HTML generated by Dreamweaver, not Drupal, not too many
>> >> pages. Like a lot of groups I know they struggle with keeping it
>> >> updated. A couple options:
>> >>
>> >> (1) Someone updates the pages about once a month
>> >> (2) Move to a system like Wordpress, Drupal, etc. where they can log
>> >> in and update pages themselves; have someone else maintain the
>> >> underlying machinery, themes, etc. when needed
>> >>
>> >> In either case, if the group needs someone not in-house to do this --
>> >> how do they best find someone, and how do they set it up right? For
>> >> (1) for instance, could a group just Craiglist someone, offer a decent
>> >> rate (I don't know what that would be), and sign a contract? For (2),
>> >> how do they find someone?
>> >>
>> >> Right now I see a lot of groups relying on volunteers or random
>> >> connects, and then they struggle getting the person to actually follow
>> >> through. I'm helping some groups fill that gap myself, but I also want
>> >> to give them advice how they can find other people in general.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks.
>> >>
>> >> Peace, community, justice,
>> >> - George
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> *** http://saveyouthjobs.org ***
>> >> *** http://bostonworkersalliance.org ***
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> consulting mailing list
>> >> consulting at drupal.org
>> >> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > http://samcohen.com
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *** http://saveyouthjobs.org ***
>> *** http://bostonworkersalliance.org ***
>>
>> *** http://saveyouthjobs.org ***
>>  Help stop the youth jobs crisis! 9000 youth jobs across
>> Massachusetts are being cut. 5500 youth who apply in Boston won't get
>> a job.
>>  Support the campaign to save youth jobs. Youth want jobs in order to
>> prepare for their future and decrease violence. Help keep our
>> communities strong and safe!
>>
>> *** http://bostonworkersalliance.org ***
>>  Pass CORI reform now! The Massachusetts House of Representatives
>> will vote on CORI reform the next few weeks. Help us make sure they:
>> (1) eliminate the checkbox from applications, (2) reduce the waiting
>> periods for CORI's, and (3) remove "dismissed" and "not guilty" cases
>> from people's records.
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>
>
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>

-- 
*** http://saveyouthjobs.org ***
*** http://bostonworkersalliance.org ***

*** http://saveyouthjobs.org ***
  Help stop the youth jobs crisis! 9000 youth jobs across
Massachusetts are being cut. 5500 youth who apply in Boston won't get
a job.
  Support the campaign to save youth jobs. Youth want jobs in order to
prepare for their future and decrease violence. Help keep our
communities strong and safe!

*** http://bostonworkersalliance.org ***
  Pass CORI reform now! The Massachusetts House of Representatives
will vote on CORI reform the next few weeks. Help us make sure they:
(1) eliminate the checkbox from applications, (2) reduce the waiting
periods for CORI's, and (3) remove "dismissed" and "not guilty" cases
from people's records.
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