[drupal-docs] Information Architecture Labeling Chat Log

[Robin Monks]

[14/07/2005 1:07 PM] -->| goodbobman
(~bob at pool-68-239-56-161.bos.east.verizon.net
<http://pool-68-239-56-161.bos.east.verizon.net>) has joined
#drupal-docs
[14/07/2005 1:07 PM] <mozillaman> Ahh :)
[14/07/2005 1:07 PM] <Morbus> there 'e is.
[14/07/2005 1:07 PM] <goodbobman> Hi, Kieran et all. Bob here--  just joined
[14/07/2005 1:07 PM] <Amazon> Hi Bobo
[14/07/2005 1:07 PM] <Amazon> Bog
[14/07/2005 1:07 PM] <Amazon> Bob
[14/07/2005 1:07 PM] <Amazon> sorry typing too fast
[14/07/2005 1:07 PM] <goodbobman> there ya go...
[14/07/2005 1:08 PM] <Amazon> I was just starting to explain the
competition for good user experience in CMS's
[14/07/2005 1:08 PM] <Amazon> and how many people find Drupal hard to use
[14/07/2005 1:08 PM] <Amazon> and one element of user experience is
using labels that end users and are comfortable with
[14/07/2005 1:09 PM] <mozillaman> Oh, should the be logged?
[14/07/2005 1:09 PM] <mozillaman> *this
[14/07/2005 1:09 PM] <Amazon> please
[14/07/2005 1:09 PM] >DrupalBot< identify mozillaman church
[14/07/2005 1:09 PM] *DrupalBot* The operation succeeded.
[14/07/2005 1:09 PM] <goodbobman> Yes. It's easy to forget, in the
maze of technnology questions and challenges...
[14/07/2005 1:09 PM] <Amazon> Bob why don't you take it from here
[14/07/2005 1:09 PM] >DrupalBot< join #drupal-docs
[14/07/2005 1:09 PM] -->| DrupalBot (tinderbox at jacuzzi.drupaldevs.org)
has joined #drupal-docs
[14/07/2005 1:09 PM] <goodbobman> That you still need intuitive terms.
[14/07/2005 1:10 PM] <goodbobman> Or language. That can go along way
in making a UX easier to use.
[14/07/2005 1:10 PM] <Morbus> (my IRC client will be logging the whole
thing too; will provide on request).
[14/07/2005 1:10 PM] <goodbobman> A very small example...
[14/07/2005 1:10 PM] <goodbobman> Worked with some real newbie users
who were't familiar with the
[14/07/2005 1:10 PM] <goodbobman> radio button convention for
selecting between 2 options.
[14/07/2005 1:10 PM] <goodbobman> Just inserting the word "Or" between
the 2 solved the problem.
[14/07/2005 1:11 PM] <Amazon> great example
[14/07/2005 1:11 PM] <mozillaman> That makes sence
[14/07/2005 1:11 PM] <Amazon> we have been talking about how to
capture these guidelines
[14/07/2005 1:11 PM] <mozillaman> So, would "Select from the following
options", work similarily?
[14/07/2005 1:12 PM] <goodbobman> I think so!
[14/07/2005 1:12 PM] <mozillaman> Since developers take these things
for granted, we tend to forget first time experiences.
[14/07/2005 1:12 PM] <goodbobman> It's hard to pretend you don't know
what you do know.
[14/07/2005 1:12 PM] <eaton> Just to be clear -- we're talking about
documentation and UI for people configuring and managing drupal sites?
And how to clear up common misunderstandings about how drupal itself
works?
[14/07/2005 1:13 PM] <mozillaman> I think is't more about how to let
Drupal explain itself
[14/07/2005 1:13 PM] <Morbus> What about checkboxes? "Select one or
more from the following options" vs ."Select only one of the following
options"? That keeps the dialogue the same, but at the possible
expense of hiding the clarity amongst boring instructions.
[14/07/2005 1:14 PM] <goodbobman> Ideally, the fewer words that are
still clear, the better.
[14/07/2005 1:14 PM] <mozillaman> If we do this once, will we ever
have to show this to the same user again?
[14/07/2005 1:14 PM] <goodbobman> So the more of the story the
interface itself can tell, the better.
[14/07/2005 1:14 PM] <mozillaman> Supposedly, they will have learned
from experiences in the EG: installer?
[14/07/2005 1:14 PM] <Morbus> "Select one of:" and "Select one or more of:" ?
[14/07/2005 1:14 PM] <Morbus> And is "Select" a good term? "Choose"?
[14/07/2005 1:15 PM] <goodbobman> Before we go too deep into
workshopping this one use case...
[14/07/2005 1:15 PM] <goodbobman> Let's chat some about the concept or
principal of good UX
[14/07/2005 1:15 PM] <goodbobman> if that sounds good to everyone.
[14/07/2005 1:15 PM] <mozillaman> Sure
[14/07/2005 1:15 PM] <eaton> I think that words like 'taxonomy' and
'vocabilary' and so on are a lot more troublesome than radio/check
verbiage, IMO...
[14/07/2005 1:15 PM] <eaton> *nod*
[14/07/2005 1:15 PM] <Morbus> fine with me.
[14/07/2005 1:15 PM] <mozillaman> May I file a bug on this specific
example though?
[14/07/2005 1:15 PM] <Morbus> eaton: i think the word "categories" is
more confusing, for our feature, than "taxonomy"
[14/07/2005 1:16 PM] <Amazon> Ok, we are going to implement some
ground rules for this chat
[14/07/2005 1:16 PM] <Amazon> let's use the hand system going forward
[14/07/2005 1:16 PM] <Amazon> I'll keep a list and let everyone know
when it's their turn
[14/07/2005 1:16 PM] <Morbus> okeedoo.
[14/07/2005 1:16 PM] <Amazon> Bob: the floor is yours
[14/07/2005 1:17 PM] <goodbobman> Okay. So Kieran,just interupt...
[14/07/2005 1:17 PM] <goodbobman> if there are questions.
[14/07/2005 1:17 PM] <goodbobman> First off, the more visually clear,
the better.
[14/07/2005 1:17 PM] <goodbobman> For example, down the road, it would
be much better for your users...
[14/07/2005 1:17 PM] <goodbobman> to have a drag and drop-like
interface to configure page layout...
[14/07/2005 1:18 PM] <goodbobman> instead of having to set and rank
weights via drop-downs, etc.
[14/07/2005 1:18 PM] <goodbobman> Because that way, user input matches
user output.
[14/07/2005 1:18 PM] <goodbobman> But language still fills a gap.
[14/07/2005 1:18 PM] <goodbobman> If the UX is so intuitive that
average users never need to look
[14/07/2005 1:19 PM] <goodbobman> at documentation, that would be great...
[14/07/2005 1:19 PM] <goodbobman> But words still matter, and visuals
can't cover 100 % of complexity.
[14/07/2005 1:19 PM] <goodbobman> Especially with a flexible tool like CS.
[14/07/2005 1:19 PM] <goodbobman> So on principle, your words have to
act like an interface.
[14/07/2005 1:20 PM] <goodbobman> So example, in the last sentence, I
said "In principle,"
[14/07/2005 1:20 PM] <goodbobman> why?
[14/07/2005 1:20 PM] <goodbobman> To label what followed.
[14/07/2005 1:21 PM] <goodbobman> So good instructions  move stepwise
with good labels. For example...
[14/07/2005 1:21 PM] <goodbobman> An overview of getting CS up and running....
[14/07/2005 1:21 PM] <goodbobman> Step 1 Downloading... (explain where
to get it, download times, where to save on desktop,
[14/07/2005 1:22 PM] <goodbobman> etc, Step 2 Upload... (different ways
[14/07/2005 1:22 PM] * Morbus raises hand.
[14/07/2005 1:22 PM] <Amazon> goodbobman: many of the people here
might be confused by CS, CivicSpace, which is basically drupal with
contributions
[14/07/2005 1:22 PM] <goodbobman> right. good point.
[14/07/2005 1:23 PM] <goodbobman> Let me pause here and see if this is
connecting with the questions people have.
[14/07/2005 1:23 PM] <Amazon> Morbus
[14/07/2005 1:23 PM] <Amazon> you have the floor
[14/07/2005 1:23 PM] <Morbus> Is a numeric progression, wizard 1-2-3
style, recommended more over other alternatives? are there other
stringently defined options?
[14/07/2005 1:23 PM] <goodbobman> So my feeling is to define
principles and templates rather than trying to
[14/07/2005 1:24 PM] <goodbobman> have ironclad definitions due to
flexible nature of language.
[14/07/2005 1:24 PM] <goodbobman> Numbers help people organize their thinking
[14/07/2005 1:24 PM] <goodbobman> and avoid feeling overwhelmed by the
scope of an undertaking.
[14/07/2005 1:25 PM] <goodbobman> I think when you say, wizard, you
mean step 1, next , step 2, next.
[14/07/2005 1:25 PM] <goodbobman> and that's good for some types of
configuration because it is so
[14/07/2005 1:25 PM] <goodbobman> focused. 
[14/07/2005 1:25 PM] <goodbobman> The UX "tunnels" the user.
[14/07/2005 1:25 PM] <goodbobman> But it's not good when there are
many forks in a path.
[14/07/2005 1:25 PM] <goodbobman> Because the tunnel requires narrow options.
[14/07/2005 1:26 PM] <goodbobman> And if the tunnel is too long, the
user gets claustraphobic in there.
[14/07/2005 1:26 PM] <Morbus> well, i'm not sure, I, personally, like
the page flipping "nexts". I hate using the mouse. Is there a
difference, usability/ia wise?
[14/07/2005 1:26 PM] <Morbus> to having 3 pages sequentially numbered
vs. three sections of a single page?
[14/07/2005 1:26 PM] <Morbus> assuming a linear, non-branching path, i mean.
[14/07/2005 1:26 PM] * eaton raises hand.
[14/07/2005 1:26 PM] <Amazon> If you have questions for Bob please say hand
[14/07/2005 1:27 PM] <Amazon> Bob, go ahead
[14/07/2005 1:27 PM] <goodbobman> Let me just finidh with Morbus q.
[14/07/2005 1:27 PM] <goodbobman> It's a good one. There's no 100% right answer.
[14/07/2005 1:27 PM] <goodbobman> In general, low-skill users are more
comfortable in tunnels...
[14/07/2005 1:28 PM] <goodbobman> one at a time decisions.... visual clarity.
[14/07/2005 1:28 PM] <goodbobman> However, higher skill will be fine
with a 3 part page or more of a
[14/07/2005 1:28 PM] *mozillaman raises hand
[14/07/2005 1:28 PM] <goodbobman> form presentation, and may "hate"
being in a tunnel.
[14/07/2005 1:28 PM] <goodbobman> In some cases, it may make sense to
offer a Q&A path and a form path.
[14/07/2005 1:28 PM] <goodbobman> Questions?
[14/07/2005 1:29 PM] <Amazon> eaton: go ahead
[14/07/2005 1:29 PM] <killes> hand
[14/07/2005 1:29 PM] <Amazon> mozillaman, then killes
[14/07/2005 1:29 PM] <Amazon> after eaton is done
[14/07/2005 1:29 PM] *mozillaman nods
[14/07/2005 1:30 PM] <goodbobman> eaton still there?
[14/07/2005 1:30 PM] <eaton> From the reading on info architecture
I've been doing it seems like "deciding what mental model you want to
convey'" is the important first step, then visually presenting that
mental model. Morbus' earlier question is probably more about that
presentation...
[14/07/2005 1:30 PM] <eaton> Would you say that some of this
discussion is trying to identify weaknesses in the mental model of
'drupalness' and the workings of a drupal site?
[14/07/2005 1:30 PM] <goodbobman> Right. Yes. Drupal-centrism compared
to user-centric model.
[14/07/2005 1:31 PM] <eaton> thanks.
[14/07/2005 1:31 PM] <goodbobman> First, you have tech-savvy and
non-tech savvy admin users.
[14/07/2005 1:31 PM] <goodbobman> And after that, you have non-admin
end users in both categories as well.
[14/07/2005 1:31 PM] <goodbobman> But non-tech savvy admins are key to
expanding the base.
[14/07/2005 1:32 PM] <goodbobman> By "mental model", we mean, who does
this person think or envision the system?
[14/07/2005 1:32 PM] <goodbobman> There's often a gap between the
system design intent and the user reality
[14/07/2005 1:32 PM] <goodbobman> or perception.
[14/07/2005 1:32 PM] <goodbobman> Other ?s
[14/07/2005 1:32 PM] <mozillaman> So, you are saying we should provide
"tunnels" or wizards to do tasks for non-tech admins.  EG: a taxonomy
wizard.  Like Microsoft's office products?
[14/07/2005 1:33 PM] <goodbobman> I'm not trying to advocate a
one-size fits all solution the way
[14/07/2005 1:33 PM] <goodbobman> Microsoft does.
[14/07/2005 1:33 PM] <mozillaman> Well, I mean, a quick start wizard
for complex modules.
[14/07/2005 1:34 PM] * Morbus raises hand, looks for proxy asker as
he's going to lunch.
[14/07/2005 1:34 PM] <mozillaman> Something the user can optout of
[14/07/2005 1:34 PM] <goodbobman> I think that could be a great option.
[14/07/2005 1:34 PM] <goodbobman> As long as it's not force-fed.
[14/07/2005 1:34 PM] <mozillaman> thanks
[14/07/2005 1:34 PM] <goodbobman> One more point on the
[14/07/2005 1:35 PM] <goodbobman> system design theory and user reality gap.
[14/07/2005 1:35 PM] <goodbobman> The way to close it is by watching
or understanding a user's thinking
[14/07/2005 1:35 PM] <goodbobman> as he or she navigates through the system.
[14/07/2005 1:35 PM] <goodbobman> You try and understand their behavior. 
[14/07/2005 1:36 PM] <Amazon> Bob would you like to take another
question, or continue discussing User Experience?
[14/07/2005 1:36 PM] <goodbobman> Let's take another ?.
[14/07/2005 1:36 PM] <Amazon> If you have a question for Bob please
say hand and I'll add you to the list
[14/07/2005 1:36 PM] <Amazon> killes: go ahead
[14/07/2005 1:36 PM] *mozillaman will as Morbus, at a convientient time
[14/07/2005 1:36 PM] <killes> ok.
[14/07/2005 1:36 PM] *mozillaman will ask Morbus's question, at a
convientient time
[14/07/2005 1:37 PM] <killes> my question is: what does a usabilty
expert have to say about options to show novice users different menus
/ things than expert ones?
[14/07/2005 1:37 PM] <killes> I had proposed this once,but it was shot
down as being not user freindly.
[14/07/2005 1:37 PM] * KobusM raises hands - have a comment about
this: <Morbus> to having 3 pages sequentially numbered vs. three
sections of a single page? (sorry so late - was occupied)
[14/07/2005 1:37 PM] <goodbobman> Killes, you are asking about forking
the UX based on...
[14/07/2005 1:37 PM] <goodbobman> expertise?
[14/07/2005 1:38 PM] <killes> yes
[14/07/2005 1:38 PM] <killes> Some programms offer this.
[14/07/2005 1:38 PM] <goodbobman> I think it locks you into fixed categories.
[14/07/2005 1:38 PM] <goodbobman> A user may be great in one area...
and confused in another.
[14/07/2005 1:38 PM] <killes> possibly.
[14/07/2005 1:38 PM] <eaton> hand
[14/07/2005 1:38 PM] <goodbobman> So the draw back is the potential
rigidness or lack of dynamism
[14/07/2005 1:38 PM] -->| blogdiva
(~blogdiva at 207-237-24-22.c3-0.avec-ubr15.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com
<http://207-237-24-22.c3-0.avec-ubr15.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com>) has
joined #drupal-docs
[14/07/2005 1:39 PM] <goodbobman> or the solution.
[14/07/2005 1:39 PM] <killes> My problem is that I am an expert user
when it comes to Drupal and I would like to not see too many
expanations and still would like myother users to see them.
[14/07/2005 1:39 PM] <goodbobman> Right.
[14/07/2005 1:39 PM] <goodbobman> A suggestion.
[14/07/2005 1:39 PM] <goodbobman> Offer the bare-bones, distilled,
clear explanation for all to see.
[14/07/2005 1:39 PM] <goodbobman> And have more help a click away if needed.
[14/07/2005 1:39 PM] <goodbobman> The one-size fits all is lean enough
not to get in the way.
[14/07/2005 1:40 PM] <killes> makes sense to me, thanks.
[14/07/2005 1:40 PM] <goodbobman> The more option is visible for your mom.
[14/07/2005 1:40 PM] <KobusM> *chuckle*
[14/07/2005 1:40 PM] * KobusM raises hand again
[14/07/2005 1:40 PM] <goodbobman> So you layer the UX that way without
forking it.
[14/07/2005 1:40 PM] <goodbobman> more ?s
[14/07/2005 1:40 PM] * KobusM raises hand again
[14/07/2005 1:40 PM] <KobusM> can I speak?
[14/07/2005 1:40 PM] *mozillaman O_O
[14/07/2005 1:41 PM] <goodbobman> sure.
[14/07/2005 1:41 PM] <KobusM> Thanks... I was a bit occupied before,
so I caught up in the conversation now. So, sorry if this topic is
late...
[14/07/2005 1:41 PM] <Amazon> Bob, more questions?
[14/07/2005 1:41 PM] <KobusM> Morbus said: <Morbus> to having 3 pages
sequentially numbered vs. three sections of a single page?
[14/07/2005 1:41 PM] <goodbobman> yes, so I can speak to that.
[14/07/2005 1:41 PM] <goodbobman> It depends on the content.
[14/07/2005 1:42 PM] <KobusM> From a usability perspective, it is
usually better to have three pages than one page with 3 sections
[14/07/2005 1:42 PM] <goodbobman> You have to define the problem first
and the solution 2nd.
[14/07/2005 1:42 PM] <goodbobman> For example...
[14/07/2005 1:42 PM] <KobusM> depending on the number of fields to
fill out in a form
[14/07/2005 1:42 PM] <Amazon> eaton: I have your hand in queue
[14/07/2005 1:42 PM] <goodbobman> hold on, though...
[14/07/2005 1:42 PM] <goodbobman> I don't think you can just go by the
number of questions.
[14/07/2005 1:42 PM] <goodbobman> For example...
[14/07/2005 1:43 PM] <goodbobman> A bank wanted to avoid forms at all costs.
[14/07/2005 1:43 PM] <goodbobman> And insisted on having a wizard...
[14/07/2005 1:43 PM] <goodbobman> To help users get accounts open.,
[14/07/2005 1:43 PM] <goodbobman> Users hated it because it felt slow,
endless, uniformative...
[14/07/2005 1:43 PM] <goodbobman> They just wanted 2 or 3 good Web based forms.
[14/07/2005 1:44 PM] <KobusM> yes, but take the following scenario:
There is a form where you have to fill out 50 fields. Let's say the
power fails or your net connection dies after 44 fields, you have to
start all over again. If you have 3 forms, saving when changing to the
next form, the user has less to re-do
[14/07/2005 1:44 PM] <Amazon> hand
[14/07/2005 1:45 PM] <goodbobman> You're bring up performance issues...
[14/07/2005 1:45 PM] <KobusM> m'kay then, I just noted on Morbus'
comment ;) Ignore my comment then
[14/07/2005 1:45 PM] <Amazon> ok
[14/07/2005 1:45 PM] <goodbobman> More ?s?
[14/07/2005 1:45 PM] <Amazon> eaton: go ahead
[14/07/2005 1:45 PM] <Amazon> please say hand if you have a question
[14/07/2005 1:46 PM] <mozillaman> Amazon: Don't forget Morbus'
[14/07/2005 1:46 PM] <eaton> A quick comment, still thinking about the
'mental map of drupal' that was talked about
[14/07/2005 1:46 PM] <goodbobman> right
[14/07/2005 1:47 PM] <eaton> Setup/administration/contribution/end
user consuming of the site are four big areas of drupal that all seem
to have their own clouds of concepts and such.
[14/07/2005 1:47 PM] <goodbobman> clouds of concepts is a good description.
[14/07/2005 1:47 PM] <goodbobman> It's helpful if possible to leverage
existing user context
[14/07/2005 1:47 PM] <blogdiva> hand
[14/07/2005 1:48 PM] <goodbobman> that's outside of Drupal-land.
[14/07/2005 1:48 PM] <eaton> in my opinion , the taxonomy system is
one of the powerful-but-tremendously-baffling things about the first
two of thouse groups
[14/07/2005 1:48 PM] <goodbobman> what do you think would fix it or
help users w/it?
[14/07/2005 1:49 PM] <blogdiva> HAND
[14/07/2005 1:49 PM] <eaton> I'm not sure, honestly, but providing
some concrete examples of what function taxonomy serves and how it
fits into the puzzle of a 'working, runnig site' would be helpful.
[14/07/2005 1:49 PM] <eaton> That might entail termonology tweaks, or
example based/setup help
[14/07/2005 1:49 PM] <Amazon> Queue: Morbus, then Blogdiva
[14/07/2005 1:49 PM] <eaton> but it seems like a swiss army knkife for
lots of seb site management problems with drupal.
[14/07/2005 1:49 PM] <eaton> that's all for me.
[14/07/2005 1:49 PM] <eaton> (er, website)
[14/07/2005 1:50 PM] <goodbobman> Good points! Users need concrete examples of
[14/07/2005 1:50 PM] <goodbobman> what they can do with the functionality.
[14/07/2005 1:50 PM] <Amazon> Bob we have 15 minutes left and two questions
[14/07/2005 1:50 PM] <goodbobman> More ?s
[14/07/2005 1:50 PM] <goodbobman> fire away.
[14/07/2005 1:50 PM] <Amazon> I'd like to make sure we get a list of
tasks for the Drupal Docs team to go do after this
[14/07/2005 1:50 PM] <Amazon> Will we have time for both?
[14/07/2005 1:50 PM] <mozillaman> Morbus wanted me to ask his for him:
"A real fear for me is dumbing down Drupal to the level of blog
software. I've seen Drupal described numerous places as a piece of
blog software, and I fear a lot of people come to Drupal, initially,
seeing it as nothing more than WordPress with whistles. How do we
address an incoming mental model that thinks they're getting a single
graphite pencil when they've really got a full set of colored
pencils?"
[14/07/2005 1:51 PM] <mozillaman> He's eating lunch
[14/07/2005 1:51 PM] <goodbobman> I can answer that quickly.
[14/07/2005 1:51 PM] <goodbobman> Don't dumb things down. Make visual
tasks visual. Provide
[14/07/2005 1:51 PM] <goodbobman> a baseline of 1-size fits all help.
[14/07/2005 1:51 PM] <goodbobman> Have more help available on an opt-in basis. 
[14/07/2005 1:51 PM] <goodbobman> Don't force feed UX. 
[14/07/2005 1:52 PM] <goodbobman> But have it there for newbie users.
[14/07/2005 1:52 PM] <goodbobman> Shall we try the task list?
[14/07/2005 1:52 PM] <Amazon> BlogDiva: have you got a quick question?
[14/07/2005 1:52 PM] <blogdiva> ARGH! WTF! And pardon my English. You
are here to server not to impose a certain geekatude on users.
[14/07/2005 1:52 PM] <blogdiva> This is one of my main frustrations with Drupal
[14/07/2005 1:53 PM] <blogdiva> there is a disregard for the obvious
[14/07/2005 1:53 PM] <blogdiva> because it is too easy
[14/07/2005 1:53 PM] <blogdiva> I am coming from a blogging background
[14/07/2005 1:53 PM] <blogdiva> hacking templates on MT and WP
[14/07/2005 1:53 PM] <blogdiva> and I have no fear of technology
[14/07/2005 1:53 PM] <blogdiva> but like many blogging users
[14/07/2005 1:53 PM] <goodbobman> I agree... The obvious can be the
hardest thing to see.
[14/07/2005 1:53 PM] <blogdiva> who are moving to community sites
[14/07/2005 1:53 PM] <blogdiva> we have no time to learn something new everyday
[14/07/2005 1:53 PM] <blogdiva> take taxonomies
[14/07/2005 1:54 PM] <blogdiva> why in the world do i have to type in
one category at a time
[14/07/2005 1:54 PM] <blogdiva> this is, to me, something quite basic
[14/07/2005 1:54 PM] <blogdiva> when people are setting blogs they can
imput up to ten categories at a time
[14/07/2005 1:54 PM] <blogdiva> it saves time
[14/07/2005 1:54 PM] <goodbobman> That's a great example. Maybe that
leads us into the task list, Kieran?
[14/07/2005 1:54 PM] <mozillaman> hand
[14/07/2005 1:54 PM] <blogdiva> it saves effort
[14/07/2005 1:54 PM] <blogdiva> i am not done
[14/07/2005 1:54 PM] <blogdiva> you have to hear this
[14/07/2005 1:55 PM] <blogdiva> this is something to me that needs fixing nowe
[14/07/2005 1:55 PM] <blogdiva> not only from the standpoint of
dealing with data
[14/07/2005 1:55 PM] <blogdiva> but also from the standpoint of
organizing people
[14/07/2005 1:56 PM] <blogdiva> this is about making life easier, no
]brainer not because it is stupid declasse or too base for you but
because it is a standard in the industry
[14/07/2005 1:56 PM] <blogdiva> same with help pages
[14/07/2005 1:56 PM] <blogdiva> now why do i have to clink on 2 or
three pages to get to the information
[14/07/2005 1:56 PM] <blogdiva> give it to me all in one page
[14/07/2005 1:57 PM] <blogdiva> or make it simple enought that the
help document resides outside the software
[14/07/2005 1:57 PM] <--| killes has left #drupal-docs
[14/07/2005 1:57 PM] <blogdiva> so you can keep that locally on your computer
[14/07/2005 1:57 PM] <blogdiva> again, a standard that is passed over at Drupal
[14/07/2005 1:57 PM] <blogdiva> those two would do wonders for people like me
[14/07/2005 1:58 PM] <Amazon> blogdiva: we can get you an export of help
[14/07/2005 1:58 PM] <blogdiva> but don't get that for me
[14/07/2005 1:58 PM] <blogdiva> make it a standard
[14/07/2005 1:58 PM] <Amazon> blogdiva: ok
[14/07/2005 1:58 PM] <blogdiva> taxonomies on the fly
[14/07/2005 1:58 PM] <blogdiva> should be a standard
[14/07/2005 1:58 PM] <Amazon> blogdiva: was there a question for Bob?
Taxonomies on the fly, got it.
[14/07/2005 1:59 PM] <blogdiva> no there was a comment more than anything else
[14/07/2005 1:59 PM] <blogdiva> obviously you all asked the right questions
[14/07/2005 1:59 PM] <blogdiva> not done but will stop for now
[14/07/2005 1:59 PM] <Amazon> Ok, thanks for your reality check
[14/07/2005 1:59 PM] <blogdiva> your welcome
[14/07/2005 1:59 PM] <Amazon> Bob, tasks for the Drupal docs team
[14/07/2005 1:59 PM] <eaton> hand (sorry, finally just summarized my
thoughts into one statement - if there's no time ignore me)
[14/07/2005 2:00 PM] <Amazon> eaton: let's move it to the drupal docs list
[14/07/2005 2:00 PM] <Amazon> Bog: task
[14/07/2005 2:00 PM] <Amazon> Bob: tasks for us
[14/07/2005 2:00 PM] <goodbobman> Okay, tasks. Is there an inventory
of major usability and UX hurdles?
[14/07/2005 2:00 PM] <goodbobman> Prioritized?
[14/07/2005 2:00 PM] <Amazon> No.
[14/07/2005 2:00 PM] <Amazon> But we could make one.
[14/07/2005 2:00 PM] <goodbobman> Great! That would be first.
[14/07/2005 2:01 PM] <Amazon> I'll take that responsibility
[14/07/2005 2:01 PM] <goodbobman> Take that list and define..
[14/07/2005 2:01 PM] <goodbobman> Short term and longer term solutions.
[14/07/2005 2:02 PM] <goodbobman> Help text and be a temporary bandaid
on interface problems.
[14/07/2005 2:02 PM] <goodbobman> But serious UI issues should be
solved deisgn wise.
[14/07/2005 2:02 PM] <goodbobman> On tasks,
[14/07/2005 2:02 PM] <goodbobman> documentation, 
[14/07/2005 2:02 PM] <goodbobman> consider the differnet delivery platforms.
[14/07/2005 2:03 PM] <goodbobman> For example, on screen text, "more
info", a pdf doc like blogdiva mentioned,
[14/07/2005 2:03 PM] <goodbobman> and/or wizards. All possible solutions.
[14/07/2005 2:03 PM] <goodbobman> I'm not quite sure..
[14/07/2005 2:04 PM] |<-- Malthus has left freenode ("Leaving")
[14/07/2005 2:04 PM] <mozillaman> Amazon: If you want I can personaly
work on some wizard mockups.
[14/07/2005 2:04 PM] <goodbobman> I think the inventory has to come
first and then figure things out from  there...
[14/07/2005 2:04 PM] <goodbobman> Problem definition 1st and solutions 2nd.
[14/07/2005 2:04 PM] <Amazon> Ok.  that's a good single task for
everyone to focus on.
[14/07/2005 2:05 PM] *mozillaman nods
[14/07/2005 2:05 PM] <goodbobman> You could collect and compare these
and then try and reality check
[14/07/2005 2:05 PM] <Amazon> If you want to volunteer with a list of
major User Experience hurdles
[14/07/2005 2:05 PM] <Amazon> kieran at civicspacelabs dot org
[14/07/2005 2:05 PM] <Amazon> I'll post to the major lists
[14/07/2005 2:05 PM] <Amazon> and you can respond
[14/07/2005 2:05 PM] <goodbobman> Blogdiva, I could work with you to
help document your issues
[14/07/2005 2:06 PM] <Amazon> goodbobman: thanks for your  time today
[14/07/2005 2:06 PM] <Amazon> If you have additional questions please
post to Drupal docs mailing list
[14/07/2005 2:06 PM] <goodbobman> My pleasure. Thank you all for your
good contributions and questions.
[14/07/2005 2:06 PM] <eaton> I'm relatively new to things, how can I
get to the drupal-docs list...? I'd like to post some thoughts on
taxonomy issues...
[14/07/2005 2:06 PM] <eaton> thanks, goodbobman
[14/07/2005 2:06 PM] <Amazon> ok, best place would actually be the
taxonomy project
[14/07/2005 2:06 PM] <goodbobman> signing off!
[14/07/2005 2:06 PM] <--| goodbobman has left #drupal-docs
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://drupal3.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/attachments/20050714/909745a0/attachment.htm