Everett, I have no idea what control would be given as far as presentation, but to be fair the site you tested isn't what will become the StackExchange site. It's more appropriate to run your WAVE tool on http://wordpress.stackexchange.com or another real StackExchange site. Justin On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM, E.J. Zufelt <lists@zufelt.ca> wrote:

I've only been casually following this thread, but I thought I'd chime in on accessibility.

Using the WAVE accessibility evaluation tool I found at least 70 errors on the URL posted in the below message. The results can be seen at http://weba.im/218

Now, it is possible that not all of these are true errors, the tool can give false positives and false negatives. However, the number was large enough for me to not bother manually assessing the page (something required even when using an automated tool.

This brings me to my point. While we do not have a perfectly accessible d.o, we at least have the ability to improve accessibility problems when they are noticed. I doubt we would have the same freedom on an external service.

Now, I am not saying that this means that we should definitely not use an external service, but this should be given appropriate consideration when making decisions about how to best implement a solution for our inclusive community.

Thanks, Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca

Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt

On 2011-01-31, at 4:57 PM, Josh Koenig wrote:

Stew,

Thanks for starting this thread. This is important stuff:

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2978/drupal-answers

I want to put my support behind this proposal and explain my thinking in doing so.

The Drupal community is already growing faster than Drupal's infrastructure can easily support. With the release of D7 and all the other associated projects getting off the ground, drupal.org is increasingly often a bottleneck or blocker. We have wonderful hosts from OSUOSL, but the human resources needed to develop, maintain and manage our own infrastructure (which is a 24x7x365 job) are limited.

We have to pick our battles. I much would rather see energy, effort, attention and money poured into continuing to improve our git and module infrastructure — which is much more deeply intrinsic to the health and future of the project — and accept that even though we *can* build our own StackOverflow (@eaton proved this already) that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best use of limited resources, or the best thing for the project.

Drupal can theoretically/technically solve a lot of its own problems, but I think we often suffer from a "not built here" prejudice as a result. In the realm of getting good quality answers to Drupal questions out to the most people possible, I can't see how a StackExchange site would do anything but help. I would love to see the community embrace something really cool and useful from the wider Internet as a way to promote the project.

Finally, I should say that I *do not* think a StackExchange answers site replaces anything. It's not an issue queue, and it's not a replacement for the dialogue that exist in the forums. I would say it's a new resource, something that can help the 10s of 1000s of people who will be trying to wrap their mind around Drupal in the coming year.

Cheers -josh

i have to ask ... what would we actually gain by doing this - cleanup the various methods for finding info about a given module or theme or bug a little and we far surpass this suggested tool it seems that stackoverflow is driven very highly on userpoints to control access - which while a good thing - doesn't really fit the development model we have here. there are existing processes that would have to change to fit the suggested model. I for one am more for peer reviews and leadership staff assigning access than a points system that someone could rack up points and just get access ... what's that really do for the community - seems that would be great if we were just a tech help forum - awarding points for the users that help and giving them more access - but what's that do for drupal and it's community? (i know there is a potential for this to help ...) another area of issue to me is - another login ? or would it use SSO? do the drupal leadership users and dries have admin level control...? mostly here i just don't get what adding yet another resource (like has been said before) would do to help the lead devs, module + theme devs and just supporting drupal. if i had say -=- i'd vote against this idea -- Dan Horning ----- Original Message -----

From: "Victor Kane" <victorkane@gmail.com> To: development@drupal.org Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 6:01:55 PM Subject: Re: [development] Drupal Answers: A Stackoverflow/StackExchange site proposal I guess this is a good place to start: http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Victor Kane < victorkane@gmail.com > wrote:

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Josh Koenig < josh@getpantheon.com > wrote:

Stew,

Thanks for starting this thread. This is important stuff:

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2978/drupal-answers

I want to put my support behind this proposal and explain my thinking in doing so.

The Drupal community is already growing faster than Drupal's infrastructure can easily support. With the release of D7 and all the other associated projects getting off the ground, drupal.org is increasingly often a bottleneck or blocker. We have wonderful hosts from OSUOSL, but the human resources needed to develop, maintain and manage our own infrastructure (which is a 24x7x365 job) are limited.

We have to pick our battles. I much would rather see energy, effort, attention and money poured into continuing to improve our git and module infrastructure — which is much more deeply intrinsic to the health and future of the project — and accept that even though we *can* build our own StackOverflow (@eaton proved this already) that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best use of limited resources, or the best thing for the project.

Drupal can theoretically/technically solve a lot of its own problems, but I think we often suffer from a "not built here" prejudice as a result. In the realm of getting good quality answers to Drupal questions out to the most people possible, I can't see how a StackExchange site would do anything but help. I would love to see the community embrace something really cool and useful from the wider Internet as a way to promote the project.

You make a convincing argument Josh; my own gut feeling has been, reading this thread, "how can we delegate something so important to the Drupal Community as its own documentation to another party who may or may not exist in the near/medium/long term".

Can someone inform somewhat on who these guys are? And why there and not someplace else?

Victor

Finally, I should say that I *do not* think a StackExchange answers site replaces anything. It's not an issue queue, and it's not a replacement for the dialogue that exist in the forums. I would say it's a new resource, something that can help the 10s of 1000s of people who will be trying to wrap their mind around Drupal in the coming year.

Cheers -josh

Sounds like something to discuss in detail at DrupalCon Chicago and develop an action plan for. :-) --Larry Garfield On 1/31/11 5:37 PM, Randy Fay wrote:

I don't think we can delegate any part of Drupal to something we don't control; I think that's just a non-starter.

So for me, the issue is what we can learn from StackOverflow and friends - they do great stuff and end up with great content. And yes, I think we should build something on that.

Who is signing up to build it? I think it's an easy sell.

-Randy

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Dan Horning <dan.horning@planetnoc.com <mailto:dan.horning@planetnoc.com>> wrote:

i have to ask ... what would we actually gain by doing this - cleanup the various methods for finding info about a given module or theme or bug a little and we far surpass this suggested tool

it seems that stackoverflow is driven very highly on userpoints to control access - which while a good thing - doesn't really fit the development model we have here. there are existing processes that would have to change to fit the suggested model. I for one am more for peer reviews and leadership staff assigning access than a points system that someone could rack up points and just get access ... what's that really do for the community - seems that would be great if we were just a tech help forum - awarding points for the users that help and giving them more access - but what's that do for drupal and it's community? (i know there is a potential for this to help ...)

another area of issue to me is - another login ? or would it use SSO? do the drupal leadership users and dries have admin level control...?

mostly here i just don't get what adding yet another resource (like has been said before) would do to help the lead devs, module + theme devs and just supporting drupal. if i had say -=- i'd vote against this idea

-- Dan Horning

----- Original Message ----- > From: "Victor Kane" <victorkane@gmail.com <mailto:victorkane@gmail.com>> > To: development@drupal.org <mailto:development@drupal.org> > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 6:01:55 PM > Subject: Re: [development] Drupal Answers: A Stackoverflow/StackExchange site proposal > I guess this is a good place to start: > http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq > > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Victor Kane < victorkane@gmail.com <mailto:victorkane@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Josh Koenig < josh@getpantheon.com <mailto:josh@getpantheon.com> > > wrote: > > > > Stew, > > > Thanks for starting this thread. This is important stuff: > > > > http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2978/drupal-answers > > I want to put my support behind this proposal and explain my thinking > in doing so. > > > The Drupal community is already growing faster than Drupal's > infrastructure can easily support. With the release of D7 and all the > other associated projects getting off the ground, drupal.org <http://drupal.org> is > increasingly often a bottleneck or blocker. We have wonderful hosts > from OSUOSL, but the human resources needed to develop, maintain and > manage our own infrastructure (which is a 24x7x365 job) are limited. > > > We have to pick our battles. I much would rather see energy, effort, > attention and money poured into continuing to improve our git and > module infrastructure — which is much more deeply intrinsic to the > health and future of the project — and accept that even though we > *can* build our own StackOverflow (@eaton proved this already) that > doesn't necessarily mean it's the best use of limited resources, or > the best thing for the project. > > > Drupal can theoretically/technically solve a lot of its own problems, > but I think we often suffer from a "not built here" prejudice as a > result. In the realm of getting good quality answers to Drupal > questions out to the most people possible, I can't see how a > StackExchange site would do anything but help. I would love to see the > community embrace something really cool and useful from the wider > Internet as a way to promote the project. > > > > > You make a convincing argument Josh; my own gut feeling has been, > reading this thread, "how can we delegate something so important to > the Drupal Community as its own documentation to another party who may > or may not exist in the near/medium/long term". > > > Can someone inform somewhat on who these guys are? And why there and > not someplace else? > > > Victor > > > > > > Finally, I should say that I *do not* think a StackExchange answers > site replaces anything. It's not an issue queue, and it's not a > replacement for the dialogue that exist in the forums. I would say > it's a new resource, something that can help the 10s of 1000s of > people who will be trying to wrap their mind around Drupal in the > coming year. > > > Cheers > -josh

-- Randy Fay Drupal Module and Site Development randy@randyfay.com <mailto:randy@randyfay.com> +1 970.462.7450

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 5:00 PM, Josh Koenig <josh@getpantheon.com> wrote:

...

I don't think we can delegate any part of Drupal to something we don't control; I think that's just a non-starter.

FWIW I don't think the question here is whether Drupal should do anything "official." That'd be up to the Association.

The Association doesn't necessarily drive new features on *.d.o. For example, anyone interested in making g.d.o more friendly for this purpose can get involved in a sprint Josh and I will be coordinating for improvements to groups.drupal.org. No DA decisions or mandates required.

This thread is about whether or not individual Drupal developers want to contribute time to answer questions using a really well-made tool that already has reach to lots of people on the net. It's not made or hosted by Drupal, but it is pretty awesome. That certainly won't appeal to everyone, and that's fine. People can choose to participate or not. I don't think anyone is trying to get  the larger "we" to do anything definitive.

Yeah, agreed. Greg -- Greg Knaddison | 720-310-5623 | http://growingventuresolutions.com http://masteringdrupal.com - Videos and Tutorials

I think like anything else in an open marketplace, in fact, like having Drupal itself, the use is going to be determined by the value. I spend LOTS of time at DO, some at Lullabot, some at StackOverflow, some at drupalmodules.com...not to mention Drupal-related blogs. Being in one of my more lucid phases I can clearly see both sides of the discussion. There is certainly reason (numerous, actually) that having DO as the premiere provider of things Drupal makes sense. That said, being the premiere provider of all things Drupal isn't a value statement. In an ideal situation, it could be said that doing it in both places would result in the better of the two drawing the most visitors, which in turn gives incentive to become the better of the two, but there's the factor here similar to "why not have Linux and Mac versions too?" of software... because the people needed to do it have only so much bandwidth, and will end up having to pick one place to put their resources. Hmmm...indecisive that...perhaps not as lucid as I first thought :)

For the purposes of this and other similar discussions and in order to help focusing on specific issues we should perhaps split the issues into two questions: 1, Is their a need for d.o. to update its own user support mechanisms in order to make it easier for people to ask questions and receive answers? - Looks to me that there is such a need and it seems that people are already planning to work on this - it depends, as ever, on how many are willing to commit how much time to get it done. A related question is: Can d.o. afford to allow outside organizations take the lead role in this or should it ensure that d.o. remains the main port of call for support? - This is were the waters get muddier. Some are willing to leave an outside org "win" the battle, others are not that happy about this. The results depend (again!) on how many are willing to spend time to make d.o. better so see question above. What I would say is that if the outside effort has a valid and proved model like the StackExchange one we can choose not to directly support them but I don't think it helps the image of the Drupal community if we show up and say "You should not be doing this". ronald. On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 3:43 AM, Josh Koenig <josh@getpantheon.com> wrote:

...

However, if a project is formed on d.o to create an "EntityUnderrun" install profile, I'll be one of the first to revoke my commit on StackExchange. Justin

Not to undercut my own argument for why a StackExchange site would be nice, but this already exists: http://drupal.org/project/arrayshift And, as far as it goes, this isn't very difficult to do: http://engineeredweb.com/blog/09/11/building-stack-overflow-clone-drupal-par... However, the value to me is that nobody has to write any code for us to use StackOverflow, people are already using it, it reaches an audience outside the normal *.drupal.org sphere, and it will keep getting better as the general StackExchange platform gets better. If it really takes off and people decide to build a viable clone on something.drupal.org, we can easily migrate the Q&A data. They make it all available as dumps or via API and user contributions are Creative Commons licensed: http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2009/06/attribution-required/ -j

I won't be able to go to DrupalCon this year, so I'll give my feedback here. One thing that's clear from the success of many open documentation sites (wikipedia, stack overflow) is that they avoid top down governance, they let the meritocracy form on the basis of what actually happens. I firmly believe that the existence of "document leads" and other forms of control have done more harm than good, despite heroic efforts from these individuals, since all that has happened over the last few years is a constant moving around of a hierarchical structure. Why wouldn't a freer, wiki like approach work? Victor Kane http://awebfactory.com.ar On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Randy Fay <randy@randyfay.com> wrote:

I don't think we can delegate any part of Drupal to something we don't control; I think that's just a non-starter.

So for me, the issue is what we can learn from StackOverflow and friends - they do great stuff and end up with great content. And yes, I think we should build something on that.

Who is signing up to build it? I think it's an easy sell.

-Randy

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Dan Horning <dan.horning@planetnoc.com>wrote:

...

i have to ask ... what would we actually gain by doing this - cleanup the various methods for finding info about a given module or theme or bug a little and we far surpass this suggested tool

it seems that stackoverflow is driven very highly on userpoints to control access - which while a good thing - doesn't really fit the development model we have here. there are existing processes that would have to change to fit the suggested model. I for one am more for peer reviews and leadership staff assigning access than a points system that someone could rack up points and just get access ... what's that really do for the community - seems that would be great if we were just a tech help forum - awarding points for the users that help and giving them more access - but what's that do for drupal and it's community? (i know there is a potential for this to help ...)

another area of issue to me is - another login ? or would it use SSO? do the drupal leadership users and dries have admin level control...?

mostly here i just don't get what adding yet another resource (like has been said before) would do to help the lead devs, module + theme devs and just supporting drupal. if i had say -=- i'd vote against this idea

-- Dan Horning

----- Original Message -----

...

From: "Victor Kane" <victorkane@gmail.com> To: development@drupal.org Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 6:01:55 PM Subject: Re: [development] Drupal Answers: A Stackoverflow/StackExchange site proposal I guess this is a good place to start: http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Victor Kane < victorkane@gmail.com > wrote:

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Josh Koenig < josh@getpantheon.com > wrote:

Stew,

Thanks for starting this thread. This is important stuff:

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2978/drupal-answers

I want to put my support behind this proposal and explain my thinking in doing so.

The Drupal community is already growing faster than Drupal's infrastructure can easily support. With the release of D7 and all the other associated projects getting off the ground, drupal.org is increasingly often a bottleneck or blocker. We have wonderful hosts from OSUOSL, but the human resources needed to develop, maintain and manage our own infrastructure (which is a 24x7x365 job) are limited.

We have to pick our battles. I much would rather see energy, effort, attention and money poured into continuing to improve our git and module infrastructure — which is much more deeply intrinsic to the health and future of the project — and accept that even though we *can* build our own StackOverflow (@eaton proved this already) that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best use of limited resources, or the best thing for the project.

Drupal can theoretically/technically solve a lot of its own problems, but I think we often suffer from a "not built here" prejudice as a result. In the realm of getting good quality answers to Drupal questions out to the most people possible, I can't see how a StackExchange site would do anything but help. I would love to see the community embrace something really cool and useful from the wider Internet as a way to promote the project.

You make a convincing argument Josh; my own gut feeling has been, reading this thread, "how can we delegate something so important to the Drupal Community as its own documentation to another party who may or may not exist in the near/medium/long term".

Can someone inform somewhat on who these guys are? And why there and not someplace else?

Victor

Finally, I should say that I *do not* think a StackExchange answers site replaces anything. It's not an issue queue, and it's not a replacement for the dialogue that exist in the forums. I would say it's a new resource, something that can help the 10s of 1000s of people who will be trying to wrap their mind around Drupal in the coming year.

Cheers -josh

-- Randy Fay Drupal Module and Site Development randy@randyfay.com +1 970.462.7450

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 11:52 AM, David Metzler <metzler.dl@gmail.com> wrote:

Likewise although I already have to some extent:

first non-sequitur:

I think we have a pretty free / wiki like approach in place already. I also think that this is something that's best decided by those who are doing the work.

wot? So if it's a free / wiki like approach, leave it alone, there are no decisions to make. Maybe some occasional pruning or abuse control, but that should be it. and then again: Seems like those that are up for doing the work should have the loudest

voice here.

This is the whole problem to the approach up till now: the documentation should not be organized top-down: this model has shown itself to be a failure. Everyone should be contributing to the Drupal Handbook documentation, and to the extent they do, they are having the loudest voice. There's no need for a "team" to exist on top of that. All they do is move stuff around so it's harder to find. Or take valuable Drupal 6 stuff out. Victor

Dave

On Feb 1, 2011, at 4:37 AM, Victor Kane wrote:

I won't be able to go to DrupalCon this year, so I'll give my feedback here.

One thing that's clear from the success of many open documentation sites (wikipedia, stack overflow) is that they avoid top down governance, they let the meritocracy form on the basis of what actually happens.

I firmly believe that the existence of "document leads" and other forms of control have done more harm than good, despite heroic efforts from these individuals, since all that has happened over the last few years is a constant moving around of a hierarchical structure.

Why wouldn't a freer, wiki like approach work?

Victor Kane http://awebfactory.com.ar

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Randy Fay <randy@randyfay.com> wrote:

...

I don't think we can delegate any part of Drupal to something we don't control; I think that's just a non-starter.

So for me, the issue is what we can learn from StackOverflow and friends - they do great stuff and end up with great content. And yes, I think we should build something on that.

Who is signing up to build it? I think it's an easy sell.

-Randy

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Dan Horning <dan.horning@planetnoc.com>wrote:

...

i have to ask ... what would we actually gain by doing this - cleanup the various methods for finding info about a given module or theme or bug a little and we far surpass this suggested tool

it seems that stackoverflow is driven very highly on userpoints to control access - which while a good thing - doesn't really fit the development model we have here. there are existing processes that would have to change to fit the suggested model. I for one am more for peer reviews and leadership staff assigning access than a points system that someone could rack up points and just get access ... what's that really do for the community - seems that would be great if we were just a tech help forum - awarding points for the users that help and giving them more access - but what's that do for drupal and it's community? (i know there is a potential for this to help ...)

another area of issue to me is - another login ? or would it use SSO? do the drupal leadership users and dries have admin level control...?

mostly here i just don't get what adding yet another resource (like has been said before) would do to help the lead devs, module + theme devs and just supporting drupal. if i had say -=- i'd vote against this idea

-- Dan Horning

----- Original Message -----

...

From: "Victor Kane" <victorkane@gmail.com> To: development@drupal.org Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 6:01:55 PM Subject: Re: [development] Drupal Answers: A Stackoverflow/StackExchange site proposal I guess this is a good place to start: http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Victor Kane < victorkane@gmail.com > wrote:

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Josh Koenig < josh@getpantheon.com > wrote:

Stew,

Thanks for starting this thread. This is important stuff:

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2978/drupal-answers

I want to put my support behind this proposal and explain my thinking in doing so.

The Drupal community is already growing faster than Drupal's infrastructure can easily support. With the release of D7 and all the other associated projects getting off the ground, drupal.org is increasingly often a bottleneck or blocker. We have wonderful hosts from OSUOSL, but the human resources needed to develop, maintain and manage our own infrastructure (which is a 24x7x365 job) are limited.

We have to pick our battles. I much would rather see energy, effort, attention and money poured into continuing to improve our git and module infrastructure — which is much more deeply intrinsic to the health and future of the project — and accept that even though we *can* build our own StackOverflow (@eaton proved this already) that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best use of limited resources, or the best thing for the project.

Drupal can theoretically/technically solve a lot of its own problems, but I think we often suffer from a "not built here" prejudice as a result. In the realm of getting good quality answers to Drupal questions out to the most people possible, I can't see how a StackExchange site would do anything but help. I would love to see the community embrace something really cool and useful from the wider Internet as a way to promote the project.

You make a convincing argument Josh; my own gut feeling has been, reading this thread, "how can we delegate something so important to the Drupal Community as its own documentation to another party who may or may not exist in the near/medium/long term".

Can someone inform somewhat on who these guys are? And why there and not someplace else?

Victor

Finally, I should say that I *do not* think a StackExchange answers site replaces anything. It's not an issue queue, and it's not a replacement for the dialogue that exist in the forums. I would say it's a new resource, something that can help the 10s of 1000s of people who will be trying to wrap their mind around Drupal in the coming year.

Cheers -josh

-- Randy Fay Drupal Module and Site Development randy@randyfay.com +1 970.462.7450

So first of all, there's nothing wrong with having lots of Drupal resources anywhere on the web. And StackOverflow/StackExchange is one of those. That's fantastic. Go for it. Second of all, we need to do a way better job with support on Drupal.org. We need to replace the forums with something that actually works, gets answers, and then present those answers in a prioritized way so you can actually find the decent ones. Greggles has suggested already brainstorming for work on the second one. It seems like we could incorporate into groups.drupal.org or maybe even have a new support.drupal.org that might implement the ideas in this thread. I just opened http://drupal.org/node/1047632, proposing that we open a support.drupal.org for the exact purposes in this thread. If you're willing to work on this (or modify the idea here) please chime in there with your willingness to flesh this out. -Randy On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 9:06 AM, jcisio <jcisio@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Victor Kane <victorkane@gmail.com> wrote:

...

This is the whole problem to the approach up till now: the documentation should not be organized top-down: this model has shown itself to be a failure. Everyone should be contributing to the Drupal Handbook documentation, and to the extent they do, they are having the loudest

voice.

...

There's no need for a "team" to exist on top of that. All they do is move stuff around so it's harder to find. Or take valuable Drupal 6 stuff out. Victor

There are two problems: the documentation and the forum. About the documentation, I can see that anyone can edit most pages, except from a few special pages that rarely change (pages about concepts, policy...). Thus I don't see any problem about that. And it is not different from wikipedia.org.

About the forum: there is no "team" on it, neither. The problem is just that it is hard for searching (in comparison to StackOverflow when asking a new question).

-- Hai-Nam Nguyen (aka jcisio) http://jcisio.com

-- Randy Fay Drupal Module and Site Development randy@randyfay.com +1 970.462.7450

Perhaps, as someone suggested, this might be an age thing. I rarely have any trouble searcing on the DO fora, but in my short visits to StackOverflow, I have yet to actually see a question, let alone answers.   Nancy  “Sometimes the questions are complicated and the answers are simple.” -- Dr. Suess ________________________________ From: jcisio About the forum: there is no "team" on it, neither. The problem is just that it is hard for searching (in comparison to StackOverflow when asking a new question).

I'm confused... I didn't think StackOverflow was being discussed as a replacement to handbook pages/docs. I thought it was being discussed as a place to get questions answered, that is support? How to glue modules together to get a task done? I admit to being confused about where I should put my module documentation, but that's documentation, and I don't think that a tool like StackOverflow would be a suitable replacement for the Handbook sites, but maybe I've missed the whole point of this thread. I was advocating for "whoever actually does the work" (i.e. volunteers their time) having a larger voice than those who just aren't happy with the way the work is being done, and want to change it. That's not an appointed team, and that analogy would still hold true on a site like wikipedia. I was just pointing out that the people who actually answer the questions are the most valuable resource we have and should be driving the discussion. Hmmm.... I thought I was chiming on on a proposal to move much of the kinds of things that happen in the support forums over to StackOverflow, but it's pretty clear I've unintentionally hit some kind of nerve here regarding your dissatisfaction with the documentation team. Didn't mean to offend.... Dave On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 7:50 AM, Victor Kane <victorkane@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 11:52 AM, David Metzler <metzler.dl@gmail.com>wrote:

...

Likewise although I already have to some extent:

first non-sequitur:

...

I think we have a pretty free / wiki like approach in place already. I also think that this is something that's best decided by those who are doing the work.

wot? So if it's a free / wiki like approach, leave it alone, there are no decisions to make. Maybe some occasional pruning or abuse control, but that should be it.

and then again:

Seems like those that are up for doing the work should have the loudest

...

voice here.

This is the whole problem to the approach up till now: the documentation should not be organized top-down: this model has shown itself to be a failure. Everyone should be contributing to the Drupal Handbook documentation, and to the extent they do, they are having the loudest voice. There's no need for a "team" to exist on top of that.

All they do is move stuff around so it's harder to find. Or take valuable Drupal 6 stuff out.

Victor

...

Dave

On Feb 1, 2011, at 4:37 AM, Victor Kane wrote:

I won't be able to go to DrupalCon this year, so I'll give my feedback here.

One thing that's clear from the success of many open documentation sites (wikipedia, stack overflow) is that they avoid top down governance, they let the meritocracy form on the basis of what actually happens.

I firmly believe that the existence of "document leads" and other forms of control have done more harm than good, despite heroic efforts from these individuals, since all that has happened over the last few years is a constant moving around of a hierarchical structure.

Why wouldn't a freer, wiki like approach work?

Victor Kane http://awebfactory.com.ar

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Randy Fay <randy@randyfay.com> wrote:

...

I don't think we can delegate any part of Drupal to something we don't control; I think that's just a non-starter.

So for me, the issue is what we can learn from StackOverflow and friends - they do great stuff and end up with great content. And yes, I think we should build something on that.

Who is signing up to build it? I think it's an easy sell.

-Randy

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Dan Horning <dan.horning@planetnoc.com>wrote:

...

i have to ask ... what would we actually gain by doing this - cleanup the various methods for finding info about a given module or theme or bug a little and we far surpass this suggested tool

it seems that stackoverflow is driven very highly on userpoints to control access - which while a good thing - doesn't really fit the development model we have here. there are existing processes that would have to change to fit the suggested model. I for one am more for peer reviews and leadership staff assigning access than a points system that someone could rack up points and just get access ... what's that really do for the community - seems that would be great if we were just a tech help forum - awarding points for the users that help and giving them more access - but what's that do for drupal and it's community? (i know there is a potential for this to help ...)

another area of issue to me is - another login ? or would it use SSO? do the drupal leadership users and dries have admin level control...?

mostly here i just don't get what adding yet another resource (like has been said before) would do to help the lead devs, module + theme devs and just supporting drupal. if i had say -=- i'd vote against this idea

-- Dan Horning

----- Original Message -----

...

From: "Victor Kane" <victorkane@gmail.com> To: development@drupal.org Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 6:01:55 PM Subject: Re: [development] Drupal Answers: A Stackoverflow/StackExchange site proposal I guess this is a good place to start: http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Victor Kane < victorkane@gmail.com > wrote:

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Josh Koenig < josh@getpantheon.com > wrote:

Stew,

Thanks for starting this thread. This is important stuff:

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2978/drupal-answers

I want to put my support behind this proposal and explain my thinking in doing so.

The Drupal community is already growing faster than Drupal's infrastructure can easily support. With the release of D7 and all the other associated projects getting off the ground, drupal.org is increasingly often a bottleneck or blocker. We have wonderful hosts from OSUOSL, but the human resources needed to develop, maintain and manage our own infrastructure (which is a 24x7x365 job) are limited.

We have to pick our battles. I much would rather see energy, effort, attention and money poured into continuing to improve our git and module infrastructure — which is much more deeply intrinsic to the health and future of the project — and accept that even though we *can* build our own StackOverflow (@eaton proved this already) that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best use of limited resources, or the best thing for the project.

Drupal can theoretically/technically solve a lot of its own problems, but I think we often suffer from a "not built here" prejudice as a result. In the realm of getting good quality answers to Drupal questions out to the most people possible, I can't see how a StackExchange site would do anything but help. I would love to see the community embrace something really cool and useful from the wider Internet as a way to promote the project.

You make a convincing argument Josh; my own gut feeling has been, reading this thread, "how can we delegate something so important to the Drupal Community as its own documentation to another party who may or may not exist in the near/medium/long term".

Can someone inform somewhat on who these guys are? And why there and not someplace else?

Victor

Finally, I should say that I *do not* think a StackExchange answers site replaces anything. It's not an issue queue, and it's not a replacement for the dialogue that exist in the forums. I would say it's a new resource, something that can help the 10s of 1000s of people who will be trying to wrap their mind around Drupal in the coming year.

Cheers -josh

-- Randy Fay Drupal Module and Site Development randy@randyfay.com +1 970.462.7450

I really love StackOverflow. I think the model absolutely has a place in the greater D.O universe. There are too many long-term disadvantages to outsourcing our support system. Anything Drupal on SO is sure to get good traffic, but so does any other niche-popular thing on the Internet. One of the unmentioned advantages of the SO model is definitive access to questions and topics that go unanswered, or unanswered by good answers. This informs documentation needs very well. (In fact, good answers can be clean enough to copy-and-paste as documentation.) Personally, I've only used the D.O forums a few times. I have been a forum junky for years, but I guess I'm a forum style traditionalist- I can't wrap my head around the aesthetic and functionality of Drupal forums enough to want to "hang out in that website". I've got some ideas about the kinds of things we'd want to consider in building a Drupal SO site, I'll look for the right place to drop them. On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 4:58 PM, larry@garfieldtech.com <larry@garfieldtech.com> wrote:

You're not confused, David.  I don't think anyone was proposing a Drupal SO to replace the handbooks, just potentially the forums.

Talking about Docs at all was an unnecessary tangent, and since it's never going to not have someone curating it (since a lack of curation and organization is, as I said previously, a bonehead idea that no one actually tries for more than a week on any reasonably sized effort) it's not worth getting upset over.  I don't quite know how we got off onto that tangent, but we should probably get off of it quickly. :-)

--Larry Garfield

On 2/1/11 3:34 PM, David Metzler wrote:

...

I'm confused... I didn't think StackOverflow was being discussed as a replacement to handbook pages/docs.  I thought it was being discussed as a place to get questions answered, that is support? How to glue modules together to get a task done?

I admit to being confused about where I should put my module documentation, but that's documentation, and I don't think that a tool like StackOverflow would be a suitable replacement for the Handbook sites, but maybe I've missed the whole point of this thread.

I was advocating for "whoever actually does the work" (i.e. volunteers their time) having a larger voice than those who just aren't happy with the way the work is being done, and want to change it.  That's not an appointed team, and that analogy would still hold true on a site like wikipedia.  I was just pointing out that the people who actually answer the questions are the most valuable resource we have and should be driving the discussion.

Hmmm.... I thought I was chiming on on a proposal to move much of the kinds of things that happen in the support forums over to StackOverflow, but it's pretty clear I've unintentionally hit some kind of nerve here regarding your dissatisfaction with the documentation team.

Didn't mean to offend....

Dave

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 7:50 AM, Victor Kane <victorkane@gmail.com <mailto:victorkane@gmail.com>> wrote:

   On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 11:52 AM, David Metzler <metzler.dl@gmail.com    <mailto:metzler.dl@gmail.com>> wrote:

       Likewise although I already have to some extent:

   first non-sequitur:

       I think we have a pretty free / wiki like approach in place        already.  I also think that this is something that's best        decided by those who are doing the work.

   wot? So if it's a free / wiki  like approach, leave it alone, there    are no decisions to make. Maybe some occasional pruning or abuse    control, but that should be it.

   and then again:

       Seems like those that are up for doing the work should have the        loudest voice here.

   This is the whole problem to the approach up till now: the    documentation should not be organized top-down: this model has shown    itself to be a failure. Everyone should be contributing to the    Drupal Handbook documentation, and to the extent they do, they are    having the loudest voice. There's no need for a "team" to exist on    top of that.

   All they do is move stuff around so it's harder to find. Or take    valuable Drupal 6 stuff out.

   Victor

       Dave

       On Feb 1, 2011, at 4:37 AM, Victor Kane wrote:

...

       I won't be able to go to DrupalCon this year, so I'll give my        feedback here.

       One thing that's clear from the success of many open        documentation sites (wikipedia, stack overflow) is that they        avoid top down governance, they let the meritocracy form on        the basis of what actually happens.

       I firmly believe that the existence of "document leads" and        other forms of control have done more harm than good, despite        heroic efforts from these individuals, since all that has        happened over the last few years is a constant moving around        of a hierarchical structure.

       Why wouldn't a freer, wiki like approach work?

       Victor Kane        http://awebfactory.com.ar <http://awebfactory.com.ar/>

       On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Randy Fay <randy@randyfay.com        <mailto:randy@randyfay.com>> wrote:

           I don't think we can delegate any part of Drupal to            something we don't control; I think that's just a non-starter.

           So for me, the issue is what we can learn from            StackOverflow and friends - they do great stuff and end up            with great content. And yes, I think we should build            something on that.

           Who is signing up to build it? I think it's an easy sell.

           -Randy

           On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Dan Horning            <dan.horning@planetnoc.com            <mailto:dan.horning@planetnoc.com>> wrote:

               i have to ask ... what would we actually gain by doing                this - cleanup the various methods for finding info                about a given module or theme or bug a little and we                far surpass this suggested tool

               it seems that stackoverflow is driven very highly on                userpoints to control access - which while a good                thing - doesn't really fit the development model we                have here. there are existing processes that would                have to change to fit the suggested model. I for one                am more for peer reviews and leadership staff                assigning access than a points system that someone                could rack up points and just get access ... what's                that really do for the community - seems that would be                great if we were just a tech help forum - awarding                points for the users that help and giving them more                access - but what's that do for drupal and it's                community? (i know there is a potential for this to                help ...)

               another area of issue to me is - another login ? or                would it use SSO?                do the drupal leadership users and dries have admin                level control...?

               mostly here i just don't get what adding yet another                resource (like has been said before) would do to help                the lead devs, module + theme devs and just supporting                drupal. if i had say -=- i'd vote against this idea

               --                Dan Horning

               ----- Original Message -----                > From: "Victor Kane" <victorkane@gmail.com                <mailto:victorkane@gmail.com>>                > To: development@drupal.org                <mailto:development@drupal.org>                > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 6:01:55 PM                > Subject: Re: [development] Drupal Answers: A                Stackoverflow/StackExchange site proposal                > I guess this is a good place to start:                > http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq                >                >                > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Victor Kane <                victorkane@gmail.com <mailto:victorkane@gmail.com> >                > wrote:                >                >                >                >                > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Josh Koenig <                josh@getpantheon.com <mailto:josh@getpantheon.com> >                > wrote:                >                >                >                > Stew,                >                >                > Thanks for starting this thread. This is important                stuff:                >                >                >                >

 http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2978/drupal-answers                >                > I want to put my support behind this proposal and                explain my thinking                > in doing so.                >                >                > The Drupal community is already growing faster than                Drupal's                > infrastructure can easily support. With the release                of D7 and all the                > other associated projects getting off the ground,                drupal.org <http://drupal.org/> is                > increasingly often a bottleneck or blocker. We have                wonderful hosts                > from OSUOSL, but the human resources needed to                develop, maintain and                > manage our own infrastructure (which is a 24x7x365                job) are limited.                >                >                > We have to pick our battles. I much would rather see                energy, effort,                > attention and money poured into continuing to                improve our git and                > module infrastructure — which is much more deeply                intrinsic to the                > health and future of the project — and accept that                even though we                > *can* build our own StackOverflow (@eaton proved                this already) that                > doesn't necessarily mean it's the best use of                limited resources, or                > the best thing for the project.                >                >                > Drupal can theoretically/technically solve a lot of                its own problems,                > but I think we often suffer from a "not built here"                prejudice as a                > result. In the realm of getting good quality answers                to Drupal                > questions out to the most people possible, I can't                see how a                > StackExchange site would do anything but help. I                would love to see the                > community embrace something really cool and useful                from the wider                > Internet as a way to promote the project.                >                >                >                >                > You make a convincing argument Josh; my own gut                feeling has been,                > reading this thread, "how can we delegate something                so important to                > the Drupal Community as its own documentation to                another party who may                > or may not exist in the near/medium/long term".                >                >                > Can someone inform somewhat on who these guys are?                And why there and                > not someplace else?                >                >                > Victor                >                >                >                >                >                > Finally, I should say that I *do not* think a                StackExchange answers                > site replaces anything. It's not an issue queue, and                it's not a                > replacement for the dialogue that exist in the                forums. I would say                > it's a new resource, something that can help the 10s                of 1000s of                > people who will be trying to wrap their mind around                Drupal in the                > coming year.                >                >                > Cheers                > -josh

           --            Randy Fay            Drupal Module and Site Development            randy@randyfay.com <mailto:randy@randyfay.com>            +1  970.462.7450

Uh, Victor, you are aware that Wikipedia has a "team" of editors who correct, prune, and curate content far more actively than anyone on Drupal.org, right? And you are also aware that Drupal core has appointed "leads" who are extremely picky about what they allow in? And that PHP itself has about 1000 committers who don't have to talk to each other before committing, and the result is an utter trainwreck of inconsistency and people committing things in the middle of the night just to avoid the fact that everyone else already said no to an idea? (True story.) Just making sure about that... --Larry Garfield On 2/1/11 6:37 AM, Victor Kane wrote:

I won't be able to go to DrupalCon this year, so I'll give my feedback here.

One thing that's clear from the success of many open documentation sites (wikipedia, stack overflow) is that they avoid top down governance, they let the meritocracy form on the basis of what actually happens.

I firmly believe that the existence of "document leads" and other forms of control have done more harm than good, despite heroic efforts from these individuals, since all that has happened over the last few years is a constant moving around of a hierarchical structure.

Why wouldn't a freer, wiki like approach work?

Victor Kane http://awebfactory.com.ar

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Randy Fay <randy@randyfay.com <mailto:randy@randyfay.com>> wrote:

I don't think we can delegate any part of Drupal to something we don't control; I think that's just a non-starter.

So for me, the issue is what we can learn from StackOverflow and friends - they do great stuff and end up with great content. And yes, I think we should build something on that.

Who is signing up to build it? I think it's an easy sell.

-Randy

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Dan Horning <dan.horning@planetnoc.com <mailto:dan.horning@planetnoc.com>> wrote:

i have to ask ... what would we actually gain by doing this - cleanup the various methods for finding info about a given module or theme or bug a little and we far surpass this suggested tool

it seems that stackoverflow is driven very highly on userpoints to control access - which while a good thing - doesn't really fit the development model we have here. there are existing processes that would have to change to fit the suggested model. I for one am more for peer reviews and leadership staff assigning access than a points system that someone could rack up points and just get access ... what's that really do for the community - seems that would be great if we were just a tech help forum - awarding points for the users that help and giving them more access - but what's that do for drupal and it's community? (i know there is a potential for this to help ...)

another area of issue to me is - another login ? or would it use SSO? do the drupal leadership users and dries have admin level control...?

mostly here i just don't get what adding yet another resource (like has been said before) would do to help the lead devs, module + theme devs and just supporting drupal. if i had say -=- i'd vote against this idea

-- Dan Horning

----- Original Message ----- > From: "Victor Kane" <victorkane@gmail.com <mailto:victorkane@gmail.com>> > To: development@drupal.org <mailto:development@drupal.org> > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 6:01:55 PM > Subject: Re: [development] Drupal Answers: A Stackoverflow/StackExchange site proposal > I guess this is a good place to start: > http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq > > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Victor Kane < victorkane@gmail.com <mailto:victorkane@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Josh Koenig < josh@getpantheon.com <mailto:josh@getpantheon.com> > > wrote: > > > > Stew, > > > Thanks for starting this thread. This is important stuff: > > > > http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2978/drupal-answers > > I want to put my support behind this proposal and explain my thinking > in doing so. > > > The Drupal community is already growing faster than Drupal's > infrastructure can easily support. With the release of D7 and all the > other associated projects getting off the ground, drupal.org <http://drupal.org> is > increasingly often a bottleneck or blocker. We have wonderful hosts > from OSUOSL, but the human resources needed to develop, maintain and > manage our own infrastructure (which is a 24x7x365 job) are limited. > > > We have to pick our battles. I much would rather see energy, effort, > attention and money poured into continuing to improve our git and > module infrastructure — which is much more deeply intrinsic to the > health and future of the project — and accept that even though we > *can* build our own StackOverflow (@eaton proved this already) that > doesn't necessarily mean it's the best use of limited resources, or > the best thing for the project. > > > Drupal can theoretically/technically solve a lot of its own problems, > but I think we often suffer from a "not built here" prejudice as a > result. In the realm of getting good quality answers to Drupal > questions out to the most people possible, I can't see how a > StackExchange site would do anything but help. I would love to see the > community embrace something really cool and useful from the wider > Internet as a way to promote the project. > > > > > You make a convincing argument Josh; my own gut feeling has been, > reading this thread, "how can we delegate something so important to > the Drupal Community as its own documentation to another party who may > or may not exist in the near/medium/long term". > > > Can someone inform somewhat on who these guys are? And why there and > not someplace else? > > > Victor > > > > > > Finally, I should say that I *do not* think a StackExchange answers > site replaces anything. It's not an issue queue, and it's not a > replacement for the dialogue that exist in the forums. I would say > it's a new resource, something that can help the 10s of 1000s of > people who will be trying to wrap their mind around Drupal in the > coming year. > > > Cheers > -josh

-- Randy Fay Drupal Module and Site Development randy@randyfay.com <mailto:randy@randyfay.com> +1 970.462.7450

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 1:38 PM, larry@garfieldtech.com < larry@garfieldtech.com> wrote:

...

Uh, Victor, you are aware that Wikipedia has a "team" of editors who correct, prune, and curate content far more actively than anyone on Drupal.org, right?

Well, that is a relatively recent development, isn't it? Their initial success at least was due to crowdsourcing, wasn't it? Can you prove they are doing better as a result?

Victor

No it's always been like that since the beginning. But to say we only need one or the other is a false dichotomy. You need people who produce lots of content and people who can take the rough ideas and shape them into something coherent. Ideally perhaps everyone could do best but the pattern that emerges everywhere (publishing world, open source development, online wikipedias, etc) is that there's many producers who produce the bulk of the stuff with varying levels of quality and quantity and editors that give order and consistency to the whole.

One key thing that I'm hearing in this discussion is that a support team needs to spin off from the traditional "docs" team. Support really is a different thing, and it should be handled with a more deliberate organizational approach than we've taken before. I like your idea, Shai, although it seems hard to keep running. But I like it. -Randy On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Shai Gluskin <shai@content2zero.com> wrote:

What I would like to see a support team do is organize people to sign-up for specific hours to "staff" the support channels, all of them (d.o. support@drupal.org, g.d.o, maybe even stack overflow), answering people's questions wherever they show up.

People would volunteer to sign up for two-hour shifts. That's only 84 shifts a week to cover 24/7. I'm sure during busy hours we could get multiple people to sign up for shifts.

What is so critical in support is the timelines of the response. And because the shifts are time-bound, I'll bet we could recruit a lot of people to sign-up who don't ever visit the forums at d.o.

I believe this kind of effort would make Drupal seem much more welcoming than it is currently perceived by people just starting Drupal.

Shai

maybe even stack overflow as well) On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Victor Kane <victorkane@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 1:38 PM, larry@garfieldtech.com < larry@garfieldtech.com> wrote:

...

Uh, Victor, you are aware that Wikipedia has a "team" of editors who correct, prune, and curate content far more actively than anyone on Drupal.org, right?

Well, that is a relatively recent development, isn't it? Their initial success at least was due to crowdsourcing, wasn't it? Can you prove they are doing better as a result?

Victor

...

And you are also aware that Drupal core has appointed "leads" who are extremely picky about what they allow in?

And that PHP itself has about 1000 committers who don't have to talk to each other before committing, and the result is an utter trainwreck of inconsistency and people committing things in the middle of the night just to avoid the fact that everyone else already said no to an idea? (True story.)

Just making sure about that...

--Larry Garfield

On 2/1/11 6:37 AM, Victor Kane wrote:

...

I won't be able to go to DrupalCon this year, so I'll give my feedback here.

One thing that's clear from the success of many open documentation sites (wikipedia, stack overflow) is that they avoid top down governance, they let the meritocracy form on the basis of what actually happens.

I firmly believe that the existence of "document leads" and other forms of control have done more harm than good, despite heroic efforts from these individuals, since all that has happened over the last few years is a constant moving around of a hierarchical structure.

Why wouldn't a freer, wiki like approach work?

Victor Kane http://awebfactory.com.ar

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Randy Fay <randy@randyfay.com <mailto:randy@randyfay.com>> wrote:

I don't think we can delegate any part of Drupal to something we don't control; I think that's just a non-starter.

So for me, the issue is what we can learn from StackOverflow and friends - they do great stuff and end up with great content. And yes, I think we should build something on that.

Who is signing up to build it? I think it's an easy sell.

-Randy

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Dan Horning <dan.horning@planetnoc.com <mailto:dan.horning@planetnoc.com>> wrote:

i have to ask ... what would we actually gain by doing this - cleanup the various methods for finding info about a given module or theme or bug a little and we far surpass this suggested tool

it seems that stackoverflow is driven very highly on userpoints to control access - which while a good thing - doesn't really fit the development model we have here. there are existing processes that would have to change to fit the suggested model. I for one am more for peer reviews and leadership staff assigning access than a points system that someone could rack up points and just get access ... what's that really do for the community - seems that would be great if we were just a tech help forum - awarding points for the users that help and giving them more access - but what's that do for drupal and it's community? (i know there is a potential for this to help ...)

another area of issue to me is - another login ? or would it use SSO? do the drupal leadership users and dries have admin level control...?

mostly here i just don't get what adding yet another resource (like has been said before) would do to help the lead devs, module + theme devs and just supporting drupal. if i had say -=- i'd vote against this idea

-- Dan Horning

----- Original Message ----- > From: "Victor Kane" <victorkane@gmail.com <mailto:victorkane@gmail.com>> > To: development@drupal.org <mailto:development@drupal.org> > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 6:01:55 PM > Subject: Re: [development] Drupal Answers: A Stackoverflow/StackExchange site proposal > I guess this is a good place to start: > http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq > > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Victor Kane < victorkane@gmail.com <mailto:victorkane@gmail.com> >

> wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Josh Koenig < josh@getpantheon.com <mailto:josh@getpantheon.com> >

> wrote: > > > > Stew, > > > Thanks for starting this thread. This is important stuff: > > > > http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2978/drupal-answers > > I want to put my support behind this proposal and explain my thinking > in doing so. > > > The Drupal community is already growing faster than Drupal's > infrastructure can easily support. With the release of D7 and all the > other associated projects getting off the ground, drupal.org <http://drupal.org> is

> increasingly often a bottleneck or blocker. We have wonderful hosts > from OSUOSL, but the human resources needed to develop, maintain and > manage our own infrastructure (which is a 24x7x365 job) are limited. > > > We have to pick our battles. I much would rather see energy, effort, > attention and money poured into continuing to improve our git and > module infrastructure — which is much more deeply intrinsic to the > health and future of the project — and accept that even though we > *can* build our own StackOverflow (@eaton proved this already) that > doesn't necessarily mean it's the best use of limited resources, or > the best thing for the project. > > > Drupal can theoretically/technically solve a lot of its own problems, > but I think we often suffer from a "not built here" prejudice as a > result. In the realm of getting good quality answers to Drupal > questions out to the most people possible, I can't see how a > StackExchange site would do anything but help. I would love to see the > community embrace something really cool and useful from the wider > Internet as a way to promote the project. > > > > > You make a convincing argument Josh; my own gut feeling has been, > reading this thread, "how can we delegate something so important to > the Drupal Community as its own documentation to another party who may > or may not exist in the near/medium/long term". > > > Can someone inform somewhat on who these guys are? And why there and > not someplace else? > > > Victor > > > > > > Finally, I should say that I *do not* think a StackExchange answers > site replaces anything. It's not an issue queue, and it's not a > replacement for the dialogue that exist in the forums. I would say > it's a new resource, something that can help the 10s of 1000s of > people who will be trying to wrap their mind around Drupal in the > coming year. > > > Cheers > -josh

-- Randy Fay Drupal Module and Site Development randy@randyfay.com <mailto:randy@randyfay.com> +1 970.462.7450

-- Randy Fay Drupal Module and Site Development randy@randyfay.com +1 970.462.7450

Something I've not seen in these discussions is the api.drupal.org site. Simply comparing at a high level api.drupal.org & someplace like php.net: api.drupal.org: each page has the routine source, number of times used by core, & comments that are rarely used. php.net: a description of the usage, inputs & outputs of a routine, 'commentary' about the routine, and verbose community comments of varying quality. Granted, php.net has its own issues, but at least it is useful. I never have php questions longer than it takes to look up the issue there. On the other hand, api.drupal.org is only useful to core developers. What about everyone else? Fixing that would go a long way towards making our documentation issues better. I advocate these forum solutions being proposed include rolling out the same ranking comment system for api.drupal.org. Sincerely, -Blake bsenftner@earthlink.net www.BlakeSenftner.com www.MissingUbercartManual.com On Feb 1, 2011, at 11:25 AM, Josh Koenig wrote:

I like the shape this discussion is taking. As few things:

1) I don't think the StackExchange model is really about "Support." It's about "Answers." There's a non-trivial difference. While answers are helpful, as are documentation, "support" is about getting specific help for your specific problem. That's almost always got an ongoing human component to it.

2) I would really love to see the Forums improve as well! There's a huge value in that use-case, even if it's not something that core developers use a lot. They're popular! :)

3) No comment on how we govern the documentation process, but maybe the mission of d.o in this context should be re-thought? The most definitive and up to date documentation we have is embedded in the code and exposed via api.d.o. The handbooks have a lot of stuff, but much of it lacks the same quality. There's also an enormous amount of valuable howto and faq material "out there" on other places in the internet.

If the handbook were to re-tune the quality/quantity ratio, and focus more on documenting the common use-cases and settled questions (as well as the experience of first-timers) it could end up providing more value....

On 2/1/2011 11:25 AM, Josh Koenig wrote:

3) No comment on how we govern the documentation process, but maybe the mission of d.o in this context should be re-thought? The most definitive and up to date documentation we have is embedded in the code and exposed via api.d.o. The handbooks have a lot of stuff, but much of it lacks the same quality. There's also an enormous amount of valuable howto and faq material "out there" on other places in the internet.

The purpose of api.drupal.org is to be a reference for Drupal's functions and the module/theme programming API. The purpose of the online documentation on Drupal.org is to provide how-to and tutorials. In-code documentation comments can't really be expected to do that, IMO, and the target audiences for these two types of doc is not usually remotely the same.

If the handbook were to re-tune the quality/quantity ratio, and focus more on documenting the common use-cases and settled questions (as well as the experience of first-timers) it could end up providing more value....

We'd love some help with that! We can always use more volunteers to organize and write the online documentation, and without volunteers who both know the subject matter and can write about it (or edit what others have written), the online doc will not improve. There is also a proposal you might be interested in at: http://drupal.org/node/1031972 which would create a set of pared-down, official documentation (for core and contrib), maintained on help.drupal.org, translated into various languages by the translation team, and available for import as the in-line help in a Drupal site. That proposal is in its infancy -- right now just trying to nail down the specifications. --Jennifer -- Jennifer Hodgdon * Poplar ProductivityWare www.poplarware.com Drupal web sites and custom Drupal modules

On 2/1/11 11:07 AM, Victor Kane wrote:

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 1:38 PM, larry@garfieldtech.com <mailto:larry@garfieldtech.com> <larry@garfieldtech.com <mailto:larry@garfieldtech.com>> wrote:

Uh, Victor, you are aware that Wikipedia has a "team" of editors who correct, prune, and curate content far more actively than anyone on Drupal.org, right?

Well, that is a relatively recent development, isn't it? Their initial success at least was due to crowdsourcing, wasn't it? Can you prove they are doing better as a result?

Victor

That depends on your metric for "better". My point is that crowd-sourcing does not inherently imply "total and utter lack of organization or curation". That is what we call "uncontrolled chaos", and the only good thing that has ever produced is an incentive to form at least some structure so as to avoid it. --Larry Garfield