Jeff Eaton said:

Ultimately, I think we would be better served by settling on a much-improved base XHTML layout (zen's is MUCH better than any previous Drupal default) and promote it as a base for pure-css themes by designers who lacked the programming experince to put together a Drupal

theme from scratch.

This is the main thing for me as a non-coder (although I understand CSS and html reasonably well). Bluemarine isn't pretty without any alterations, but I can be pretty certain that it will display output from contributed modules readably and is likely to be upgraded for the next release of Drupal. It doesn't contain any structural images (backgrounds, block corners etc.), so it's easy to swap css colours/spacing around without being concerned about changing those additional elements to see what it'll look like roughly. So with that knowledge, I can: *use it as a base to develop another theme from - i.e. change css and page.tpl.php a bit at a time instead of starting from scratch or spending hours looking through the themes index. *take code from page.tpl.php and styles.css and plug it into other themes if I'm having trouble reproducing, say, primary links displayed inline in the header. In both cases, if there's an upgrade, it's going to be relatively easy to apply any changes to Bluemarine again, or compare the old and new versions to upgrade my own modified version. With this in mind, for any user who's going to do more than just install it and leave it as it is, it makes sense to have a transparent structure clean and clear coding (ideally with code comments in there as well). Then medium-experience spare time admins like me can see what the various elements are making it work and begin to understand how they're related - this can then be applied to contrib. themes or building from scratch later. The javascript rounded corners and/or multiple divs sounded like moves in the opposite direction to that. If there's going to be a move towards more themes in a drupal installation, then it makes sense to have the more "boxed in"/complex ones as options - so someone who just wants to pick a theme and stick with it has easy access to some choices. Also, it does matter what the core theme looks like. The first time I used drupal was when I did a fantastico install alongside another CMS (iirc geeklog, and I'd tried postnuke before that). Drupal.org looks good - some other CMS sites are really ugly. I looked at things in fantastico before I'd ever seen the homepage of a CMS though, and I'd imagine that's the way a lot of people come across them - or at least start using them. You've also got opensourcecms.com where people will be flicking through various options at speed, and will be thinking about usability more than customisation when they know it's not 'their' site and any theme changes will be wiped in a matter of minutes. Regards, Nathaniel Catchpole (catch) -- Confidentiality: This email and its attachments are intended for the addressee only and may be confidential or the subject of legal privilege. If this email and its attachments have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy them, distribute them or show them to anyone. Please contact the sender to notify them of the error. Security: Security Warning: Please note that this e-mail has been created in the knowledge that e-mail is not a 100% secure communications medium. We advise that you understand and observe this lack of security when e-mailing us. Viruses: This email and any attached files have been scanned for the presence of computer viruses. However, you are advised that you open any attachments at your own risk. Please note that electronic mail may be monitored in accordance with the Telecommunications (Lawful Business Practices) (Interception of Communications) Regulations 2000. Disclaimer: Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of B6 Sixth Form unless explicitly stated otherwise ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been inspected by DynaComm i:mail -----------------------------------------------------------------------