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This would have almost zero impact on existing developers and a plus for all support-seeking users.

I still do not believe in the usefullness of giving support on irc.

In that case, don't hang out in the room. Lets not legislate the free will of others.

Exactly why I would like to have the right to log, yes, log drupal-support and have archives available though search with a bot. I have mentioned this for some time. Also a +1 on the idea from me. Robin On 8/31/05, Gerhard Killesreiter <killesreiter@physik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Moshe Weitzman wrote:

...

...

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This would have almost zero impact on existing developers and a plus for all support-seeking users.

I still do not believe in the usefullness of giving support on irc.

In that case, don't hang out in the room. Lets not legislate the free will of others.

That is what I am doing. I _am_ not hanging out in #drupal-support and have no intention to change that. Every bit of advice given there is wasted as it isn't available to the general public as it isn't available through drupal.org <http://drupal.org> search.

-- Robin Monks, CSL Web Administrator robin@civicspacelabs.org

John VanDyk wrote:

+1 on changing the name of #drupal. This will help stop wasting developers' time pointing newbies to the topic.

-1 on making #drupal for nickserv registered users only, if I understand Karoly correctly. We want new developers to feel welcome and we want #drupal to be accessible. I myself have only been registered with nickserv for a few months.

Agreed on both points. I realize developers shouldn't "have to" move from the channel they're used to since one would think reading the topic is a very basic netiquette thing. But most of the channels on freenode that I have seen which are #project-title are in fact support channels, so I can see why someone in a hurry to get their problem fixed might assume that #drupal is the same way. "See topic" comes up literally dozens of times per day and it makes developers incensed and in turn, makes users frustrated and with a bad taste in their mouths about Drupal both because they tend to get flamed from time to time, but also because they can see this room full of people who are actively chatting in #drupal, but who are unwilling to help them. The nickserv registration really threw me for a loop this morning. I had originally registered my IRC nick in a flurry of other SoC-related activities when the adrenaline was pumping but the brain wasn't retaining too much ;) , so I'd long since forgotten what my password was. It was no big deal, because I could just not identify and it would let me keep my nick, and I figured eventually it would be dropped and I could reregister it again. But then this morning I freaked out because it's the last day of SoC and I couldn't speak in #drupal. Luckily I was able to find a freenode staffer who dropped my nick for me so I could re-register but please DON'T just do this to people without warning! ;)

I am in Gerhard's camp and also believe IRC-based support is a rubbish idea. The 'solution' of making the chat logs public won't solve a thing, because no-one who is too lazy to read a topic will go through the trouble of actually digging through a chat log (which is a couple orders of magnitude more work). - #drupal is the place where most new people would enter. Do we want the first sight of Drupal chat to be a bustling hub of development activity, or do we want it to be cesspit of repetitive support questions whose life-span is measured in minutes? - #drupal has always been about developers meeting and talking. By making #drupal a support channel, we are saying that providing support for our users is more important than developing the software. That statement offends me: I develop for personal benefit; to extend my knowledge, hone my skills and for the satisfaction of creating something valuable. - if people are vaguely interested in Drupal, they will idle in #drupal, not #drupal-devel. Thus, it is a barrier to entry and shields development from public eyes. What do we have more trouble with: attracting new users, or attracting new developers? Hint: it's not the first. - If users are frustrated because they see a bunch of people chatting yet unwilling to answer their questions, perhaps they shouldn't assume that information is free and that somehow, knowledgable people have a duty to inform the ignorant. Steven

The issue is not whether IRC-based support is a good idea. I think we can all agree that forum-based support is better. However, we already have a support channel where volunteers may offer support if they wish. So that point is moot. I am also not opposed to people's first impression of Drupal being a "bustling hub of development activity". The problem is that this is not the case. The first impression people have is that they are rudely spoken to for unwittingly entering what appears to be a channel about Drupal, but is really a development channel. This has two negative effects: 1. Developer time is taken up redirecting people to #drupal-support. Frustration builds on the part of the developer. 2. Unsuspecting newbies, many of whom may be potential developers, are given a negative impression at the outset. This is bad system design, plain and simple. No one is saying that support is more important than developing software. What I'm saying is that after the 150th car crashes from going around a sudden turn in the road, it's time to recognize there is a design problem and rebuild the road. No one is saying that development is not important. It is important. It's so important that it warrants its own channel. But what's also important is designing an on-ramp for new potential drupal users and developers that is as smooth and easy as possible. Inviting potential developers to the dev channel is far more uplifting than booting them to the support channel. The current system is broken. Let's fix it.

My idea is that #drupal is not about support, per sé. Just a place where people can chitchat about Drupal. Stuff that now very often happens in #drupal too he only difference is that in #drupal now newbies are not allowed to ask or say anything other then pure devel related things, while hardcore drupal devs may chitchat about anything they like, even whether or not they are actually wearing shoes. To me that is fine, for its not all about work. It must be fun above all. I hang around in other channels too, #kde, #amarok etc. The athmosphere in general there is much friendlier and much more is happening there, including hardcore development. #amarok does support and development in one channel and is friendly for all. I think Drupal should move towards that too. #drupal being the hang-out a place where to discuss your latests drupal site you found (theonion.com) or if you are actually wearing shoes. But because a lot of devels will dislike th idea of hanging around in a channel where support might be given, or where the actual users (yuk!) of their work are hanging, we really need a devel place. A place where people talk about development, about hooks, apis and stuff. I beleive taht that is much friendlier then the current -oft agressive way- people get in touch with the developers. I remember cases where a noob #5 enters the channel and asks a question, only to be cursed away. He did not know that he was #5 and that people were very frustrated. No, IMO the only way to get more developers is to have a palce where to get in touch in a friendly way. After wich they cn choose to join the hardcore devel channel. Ber Op woensdag 31 augustus 2005 20:05, schreef John VanDyk:

The issue is not whether IRC-based support is a good idea. I think we can all agree that forum-based support is better. However, we already have a support channel where volunteers may offer support if they wish. So that point is moot.

I am also not opposed to people's first impression of Drupal being a "bustling hub of development activity". The problem is that this is not the case. The first impression people have is that they are rudely spoken to for unwittingly entering what appears to be a channel about Drupal, but is really a development channel. This has two negative effects:

1. Developer time is taken up redirecting people to #drupal-support. Frustration builds on the part of the developer.

2. Unsuspecting newbies, many of whom may be potential developers, are given a negative impression at the outset.

This is bad system design, plain and simple.

No one is saying that support is more important than developing software. What I'm saying is that after the 150th car crashes from going around a sudden turn in the road, it's time to recognize there is a design problem and rebuild the road.

No one is saying that development is not important. It is important. It's so important that it warrants its own channel. But what's also important is designing an on-ramp for new potential drupal users and developers that is as smooth and easy as possible. Inviting potential developers to the dev channel is far more uplifting than booting them to the support channel. The current system is broken. Let's fix it. Regards, Bèr -- [ Bèr Kessels | Drupal services www.webschuur.com ]