I'm pulling this out as a separate thread... Jenniver wrote, Shai Gluskin wrote:
3. *Move dev list to g.d.o.* [...]
I can sympathize with your desire to have a more searchable output for this list, on-line forums such as g.d.o are a huge barrier to participation compared to email lists. So if this list is moved to g.d.o and we want it to still be a useful list with immediate feedback and lots of participants, we would also need to provide a way for people to participate fully via email (i.e. make it so it looks and acts just like an email list). In which case, the threads will look/act/search like email, and I don't think we will have solved anything. --Jennifer My issue with the search results at http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/development is not the formatting; it's the content. Searching on terms like "module development" the top results are from March. I mean, there really is something wrong. Given the delays in upgrading to the new d.o. design, I'm not sure where things stand. But I know there were definitely discussions about tweaking the notifications system and also adding Mail Comment (formerly Mail2Web): http://drupal.org/node/634074. Mail Comment would allow for replicating list serve functionality for folks who don't want to go to g.d.o. And again... I don't care about the formatting; I want the transparency, the integration with d.o. web sites, it running on Drupal, and also the much more personal and community feel you get at g.d.o with user pics/profiles etc. With Mail Comment we can have the push of the list serve but the better functionality of g.d.o. Shai
I agree with this idea. It could improve the usefulness of the development list for members and non members. But right now g.d.o is pretty much in a transition. I'm waiting for an account synch requested almost 2 months ago. Also the current setting of "flooding" the group subscribers with each edit/revision of a post/comment is quite annoying. I don't know if there's a way to turn it off. Let's face it, MLs are much mature and stable than g.d.o right now. I'm not picking with the g.d.o infrastructure team, I know that there's a lot on their plate. Notwithstanding, we should aim for moving everything to g.d.o. But first let it settle down. There's also the push for the new d.o. In the meantime people can use the gmane interface to list for searching up to date content: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.php.drupal.devel --- appa On 18 Nov 2009 18h30 WET, shai@content2zero.com wrote:
I'm pulling this out as a separate thread...
Jenniver wrote,
Shai Gluskin wrote:
3. *Move dev list to g.d.o.* [...]
I can sympathize with your desire to have a more searchable output for this list, on-line forums such as g.d.o are a huge barrier to participation compared to email lists.
So if this list is moved to g.d.o and we want it to still be a useful list with immediate feedback and lots of participants, we would also need to provide a way for people to participate fully via email (i.e. make it so it looks and acts just like an email list). In which case, the threads will look/act/search like email, and I don't think we will have solved anything.
--Jennifer
My issue with the search results at http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/development is not the formatting; it's the content. Searching on terms like "module development" the top results are from March. I mean, there really is something wrong.
Given the delays in upgrading to the new d.o. design, I'm not sure where things stand. But I know there were definitely discussions about tweaking the notifications system and also adding Mail Comment (formerly Mail2Web): http://drupal.org/node/634074. Mail Comment would allow for replicating list serve functionality for folks who don't want to go to g.d.o. And again... I don't care about the formatting; I want the transparency, the integration with d.o. web sites, it running on Drupal, and also the much more personal and community feel you get at g.d.o with user pics/profiles etc. With Mail Comment we can have the push of the list serve but the better functionality of g.d.o.
Shai
I too have been unable to log into g.d.o for months. I'm not in favor of moving anything there. If my account there can't be synced with my g.o account, please someone just delete http://groups.drupal.org/user/459. -Dave On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:54 +0000, "Antonio P. P. Almeida" <perusio@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with this idea. It could improve the usefulness of the development list for members and non members. But right now g.d.o is pretty much in a transition. I'm waiting for an account synch requested almost 2 months ago. Also the current setting of "flooding" the group subscribers with each edit/revision of a post/comment is quite annoying. I don't know if there's a way to turn it off.
Let's face it, MLs are much mature and stable than g.d.o right now. I'm not picking with the g.d.o infrastructure team, I know that there's a lot on their plate. Notwithstanding, we should aim for moving everything to g.d.o. But first let it settle down. There's also the push for the new d.o.
In the meantime people can use the gmane interface to list for searching up to date content: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.php.drupal.devel
--- appa
On 18 Nov 2009 18h30 WET, shai@content2zero.com wrote:
I'm pulling this out as a separate thread...
Jenniver wrote,
Shai Gluskin wrote:
3. *Move dev list to g.d.o.* [...]
I can sympathize with your desire to have a more searchable output for this list, on-line forums such as g.d.o are a huge barrier to participation compared to email lists.
So if this list is moved to g.d.o and we want it to still be a useful list with immediate feedback and lots of participants, we would also need to provide a way for people to participate fully via email (i.e. make it so it looks and acts just like an email list). In which case, the threads will look/act/search like email, and I don't think we will have solved anything.
--Jennifer
My issue with the search results at http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/development is not the formatting; it's the content. Searching on terms like "module development" the top results are from March. I mean, there really is something wrong.
Given the delays in upgrading to the new d.o. design, I'm not sure where things stand. But I know there were definitely discussions about tweaking the notifications system and also adding Mail Comment (formerly Mail2Web): http://drupal.org/node/634074. Mail Comment would allow for replicating list serve functionality for folks who don't want to go to g.d.o. And again... I don't care about the formatting; I want the transparency, the integration with d.o. web sites, it running on Drupal, and also the much more personal and community feel you get at g.d.o with user pics/profiles etc. With Mail Comment we can have the push of the list serve but the better functionality of g.d.o.
Shai
Hey! Literally as I was writing that email it seems someone synced my account! Thanks to whoever that was. -D On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:17 -0800, "David Cohen" <drupal@dave-cohen.com> wrote:
I too have been unable to log into g.d.o for months. I'm not in favor of moving anything there.
If my account there can't be synced with my g.o account, please someone just delete http://groups.drupal.org/user/459.
-Dave
Guess the list is useful... Let's keep it! Victor Kane http://awebfactory.com.ar http://projectflowandtracker.com "Let's make the capitalists pay for the crisis, not working people" On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 4:19 PM, David Cohen <drupal@dave-cohen.com> wrote:
Hey! Literally as I was writing that email it seems someone synced my account!
Thanks to whoever that was.
-D
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:17 -0800, "David Cohen" <drupal@dave-cohen.com> wrote:
I too have been unable to log into g.d.o for months. I'm not in favor of moving anything there.
If my account there can't be synced with my g.o account, please someone just delete http://groups.drupal.org/user/459.
-Dave
I find email generally better anyways. I do wish some conversations that happen on the dev list happened elsewhere though. It has been better recently but the list tends to have a lot of noise and little signal. As a result I think we've seen discussions that would benefit from the broadcast nature of such a list moved offline and else where. -- James On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 1:17 PM, David Cohen <drupal@dave-cohen.com> wrote:
I too have been unable to log into g.d.o for months. I'm not in favor of moving anything there.
If my account there can't be synced with my g.o account, please someone just delete http://groups.drupal.org/user/459.
-Dave
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:54 +0000, "Antonio P. P. Almeida" <perusio@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with this idea. It could improve the usefulness of the development list for members and non members. But right now g.d.o is pretty much in a transition. I'm waiting for an account synch requested almost 2 months ago. Also the current setting of "flooding" the group subscribers with each edit/revision of a post/comment is quite annoying. I don't know if there's a way to turn it off.
Let's face it, MLs are much mature and stable than g.d.o right now. I'm not picking with the g.d.o infrastructure team, I know that there's a lot on their plate. Notwithstanding, we should aim for moving everything to g.d.o. But first let it settle down. There's also the push for the new d.o.
In the meantime people can use the gmane interface to list for searching up to date content: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.php.drupal.devel
--- appa
On 18 Nov 2009 18h30 WET, shai@content2zero.com wrote:
I'm pulling this out as a separate thread...
Jenniver wrote,
Shai Gluskin wrote:
3. *Move dev list to g.d.o.* [...]
I can sympathize with your desire to have a more searchable output for this list, on-line forums such as g.d.o are a huge barrier to participation compared to email lists.
So if this list is moved to g.d.o and we want it to still be a useful list with immediate feedback and lots of participants, we would also need to provide a way for people to participate fully via email (i.e. make it so it looks and acts just like an email list). In which case, the threads will look/act/search like email, and I don't think we will have solved anything.
--Jennifer
My issue with the search results at http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/development is not the formatting; it's the content. Searching on terms like "module development" the top results are from March. I mean, there really is something wrong.
Given the delays in upgrading to the new d.o. design, I'm not sure where things stand. But I know there were definitely discussions about tweaking the notifications system and also adding Mail Comment (formerly Mail2Web): http://drupal.org/node/634074. Mail Comment would allow for replicating list serve functionality for folks who don't want to go to g.d.o. And again... I don't care about the formatting; I want the transparency, the integration with d.o. web sites, it running on Drupal, and also the much more personal and community feel you get at g.d.o with user pics/profiles etc. With Mail Comment we can have the push of the list serve but the better functionality of g.d.o.
Shai
If this list moves to g.d.o, I will no longer participate. I find g.d.o. difficult to locate much of anything. Here on this list, I can read the first few of a thread and decide if I have any interest in following it any further. If I do, I keep reading; if I do not, I delete it automatically. As for searching, I can do that in the emails I retain. Nancy E. Wichmann, PMP Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
Put me in the same column. I loathe forums with a passion. They are a horrifically bad interface for pretty much everything other than "getting indexed by Google". Ironically, the Drupal project* issue queues are the forum-type system I despite the least, out of all the ones I've used. Despite email architecture itself being a patchwork of crap (SMTP, POP, IMAP, all with ugly configs and that's before you even get to spam or filtering or MIME), it's still a much better interface for most conversations, even those with poor signal to noise ratio, than any forum software I've seen, Drupal or otherwise. There's a reason I've never been active in the Drupal forums, only lists and IRC. --Larry Garfield Nancy Wichmann wrote:
If this list moves to g.d.o, I will no longer participate. I find g.d.o. difficult to locate much of anything. Here on this list, I can read the first few of a thread and decide if I have any interest in following it any further. If I do, I keep reading; if I do not, I delete it automatically. As for searching, I can do that in the emails I retain.
Nancy E. Wichmann, PMP
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
Until g.d.o gets actually useful email notifications, I am against this. Right now, g.d.o is useless to me, because the notifications system has regressed. (All we really need is good titling and threaded support, for my purposes. it doesn't need to *respond* to email, I'm perfectly ok with clicking a link to reply). Shai Gluskin wrote:
I'm pulling this out as a separate thread...
Jenniver wrote,
Shai Gluskin wrote:
3. *Move dev list to g.d.o.* [...]
I can sympathize with your desire to have a more searchable output for this list, on-line forums such as g.d.o are a huge barrier to participation compared to email lists.
So if this list is moved to g.d.o and we want it to still be a useful list with immediate feedback and lots of participants, we would also need to provide a way for people to participate fully via email (i.e. make it so it looks and acts just like an email list). In which case, the threads will look/act/search like email, and I don't think we will have solved anything.
--Jennifer
My issue with the search results at http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/development is not the formatting; it's the content. Searching on terms like "module development" the top results are from March. I mean, there really is something wrong.
Given the delays in upgrading to the new d.o. design, I'm not sure where things stand. But I know there were definitely discussions about tweaking the notifications system and also adding Mail Comment (formerly Mail2Web): http://drupal.org/node/634074. Mail Comment would allow for replicating list serve functionality for folks who don't want to go to g.d.o. And again... I don't care about the formatting; I want the transparency, the integration with d.o. web sites, it running on Drupal, and also the much more personal and community feel you get at g.d.o with user pics/profiles etc. With Mail Comment we can have the push of the list serve but the better functionality of g.d.o.
Shai
Yeah I got an email from a GDO group yesterday for a message that was posted 4 days earlier. But what would be really cool, though require some custom module work, is a way to make G.D.O operate more like Google Groups. People could choose to use the web site and/or email - ala listserv style. Of course that would require pumping emails through a script handler, which can be done in PHP. It would also be a rather sweet contrib module to allow other sites to do a similar type system. Jamie Holly http://www.intoxination.net http://www.hollyit.net Earl Miles wrote:
Until g.d.o gets actually useful email notifications, I am against this.
Right now, g.d.o is useless to me, because the notifications system has regressed.
(All we really need is good titling and threaded support, for my purposes. it doesn't need to *respond* to email, I'm perfectly ok with clicking a link to reply).
Shai Gluskin wrote:
I'm pulling this out as a separate thread...
Jenniver wrote,
Shai Gluskin wrote:
3. *Move dev list to g.d.o.* [...]
I can sympathize with your desire to have a more searchable output for this list, on-line forums such as g.d.o are a huge barrier to participation compared to email lists.
So if this list is moved to g.d.o and we want it to still be a useful list with immediate feedback and lots of participants, we would also need to provide a way for people to participate fully via email (i.e. make it so it looks and acts just like an email list). In which case, the threads will look/act/search like email, and I don't think we will have solved anything.
--Jennifer
My issue with the search results at http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/development is not the formatting; it's the content. Searching on terms like "module development" the top results are from March. I mean, there really is something wrong.
Given the delays in upgrading to the new d.o. design, I'm not sure where things stand. But I know there were definitely discussions about tweaking the notifications system and also adding Mail Comment (formerly Mail2Web): http://drupal.org/node/634074. Mail Comment would allow for replicating list serve functionality for folks who don't want to go to g.d.o. And again... I don't care about the formatting; I want the transparency, the integration with d.o. web sites, it running on Drupal, and also the much more personal and community feel you get at g.d.o with user pics/profiles etc. With Mail Comment we can have the push of the list serve but the better functionality of g.d.o.
Shai
On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Jamie Holly <hovercrafter@earthlink.net> wrote:
Yeah I got an email from a GDO group yesterday for a message that was posted 4 days earlier.
But what would be really cool, though require some custom module work, is a way to make G.D.O operate more like Google Groups. People could choose to use the web site and/or email - ala listserv style. Of course that would require pumping emails through a script handler, which can be done in PHP. It would also be a rather sweet contrib module to allow other sites to do a similar type system.
Great idea! We started in 2005 an released it in 2006. http://drupal.org/project/og2list Everybody wants it but nobody wants to fund it. Kieran
Jamie Holly http://www.intoxination.net http://www.hollyit.net
Earl Miles wrote:
Until g.d.o gets actually useful email notifications, I am against this.
Right now, g.d.o is useless to me, because the notifications system has regressed.
(All we really need is good titling and threaded support, for my purposes. it doesn't need to *respond* to email, I'm perfectly ok with clicking a link to reply).
Shai Gluskin wrote:
I'm pulling this out as a separate thread...
Jenniver wrote, Shai Gluskin wrote: 3. *Move dev list to g.d.o.* [...]
I can sympathize with your desire to have a more searchable output for > this list, on-line forums such as g.d.o are a huge barrier to > participation compared to email lists. So if this list is moved to g.d.o and we want it to still be a useful list with immediate feedback and lots of participants, we would also > need to provide a way for people to participate fully via email (i.e. > make it so it looks and acts just like an email list). In which case, > the threads will look/act/search like email, and I don't think we will > have solved anything. --Jennifer My issue with the search results at > http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/development is not the formatting; > it's the content. Searching on terms like "module development" the top > results are from March. I mean, there really is something wrong. Given the delays in upgrading to the new d.o. design, I'm not sure where > things stand. But I know there were definitely discussions about > tweaking the notifications system and also adding Mail Comment (formerly > Mail2Web): http://drupal.org/node/634074. Mail Comment would allow for > replicating list serve functionality for folks who don't want to go to > g.d.o. And again... I don't care about the formatting; I want the > transparency, the integration with d.o. web sites, it running on Drupal, > and also the much more personal and community feel you get at g.d.o with > user pics/profiles etc. With Mail Comment we can have the push of the > list serve but the better functionality of g.d.o. Shai
Kieren or others, Doesn't a properly configured combination of: Comment mail --used-to-be Mail2Web (http://drupal.org/node/634074), Messaging ( http://drupal.org/project/messaging), and Notifications ( http://drupal.org/project/notifications) get us exactly what we need? What would a resuscitated project/og2list get us that this combination of modules doesn't already provide? I'm not saying that it's a trivial installation, especially given the scale of things. But I think, as others have hinted at, that after things settle down and the new g.d.o is launched with the d.o. upgrade --, it will be time advocate for improvements in the g.do. notifications system. I personally agree with Earl that clicking on a link in an email is fine. But I think we need to have an open discussion about what is the best notifications system that will serve the broadest range of personal work-flows so that people would feel comfortable dumping Mailman. One other point in the general discussion. Some are arguing, "I like list serves, I want to do this kind of thing on email." Remember that all the people who will only follow this kind of conversation via RSS are not participating here, by definition, because Mailman doesn't do RSS. Shai On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Kieran Lal <kieran@acquia.com> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Jamie Holly <hovercrafter@earthlink.net> wrote:
Yeah I got an email from a GDO group yesterday for a message that was posted 4 days earlier.
But what would be really cool, though require some custom module work, is a way to make G.D.O operate more like Google Groups. People could choose to use the web site and/or email - ala listserv style. Of course that would require pumping emails through a script handler, which can be done in PHP. It would also be a rather sweet contrib module to allow other sites to do a similar type system.
Great idea!
We started in 2005 an released it in 2006. http://drupal.org/project/og2list
Everybody wants it but nobody wants to fund it.
Kieran
Jamie Holly http://www.intoxination.net http://www.hollyit.net
Earl Miles wrote:
Until g.d.o gets actually useful email notifications, I am against this.
Right now, g.d.o is useless to me, because the notifications system has regressed.
(All we really need is good titling and threaded support, for my
purposes.
it doesn't need to *respond* to email, I'm perfectly ok with clicking a link to reply).
Shai Gluskin wrote:
I'm pulling this out as a separate thread...
Jenniver wrote, Shai Gluskin wrote: 3. *Move dev list to g.d.o.* [...]
I can sympathize with your desire to have a more searchable output for > this list, on-line forums such as g.d.o are a huge barrier to > participation compared to email lists. So if this list is moved to g.d.o and we want it to still be a useful list with immediate feedback and lots of participants, we would also > need to provide a way for people to participate fully via email (i.e. > make it so it looks and acts just like an email list). In which case, > the threads will look/act/search like email, and I don't think we will > have solved anything. --Jennifer My issue with the search results at > http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/development is not the formatting; > it's the content. Searching on terms like "module development" the top > results are from March. I mean, there really is something wrong. Given the delays in upgrading to the new d.o. design, I'm not sure where > things stand. But I know there were definitely discussions about > tweaking the notifications system and also adding Mail Comment (formerly > Mail2Web): http://drupal.org/node/634074. Mail Comment would allow for > replicating list serve functionality for folks who don't want to go to > g.d.o. And again... I don't care about the formatting; I want the > transparency, the integration with d.o. web sites, it running on Drupal, > and also the much more personal and community feel you get at g.d.o with > user pics/profiles etc. With Mail Comment we can have the push of the > list serve but the better functionality of g.d.o. Shai
With that combination (and a lot of work and custom code) it *is* possible to turn Organic Groups into a passable mailing list. It's not for the faint of heart however and the system we've built (for https://island.byu.edu) isn't entirely stable yet. But it's close. I'd be happy when the time comes (i.e. d.o redesign complete) help out converting g.d.o groups so they're more list-like. Speaking from experience, it does make a groups system *much* more usable if you can start / reply-to conversations via email. --Kyle Mathews kyle.mathews2000.com/blog http://twitter.com/kylemathews On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Shai Gluskin <shai@content2zero.com> wrote:
Kieren or others,
Doesn't a properly configured combination of: Comment mail --used-to-be Mail2Web (http://drupal.org/node/634074), Messaging ( http://drupal.org/project/messaging), and Notifications ( http://drupal.org/project/notifications) get us exactly what we need? What would a resuscitated project/og2list get us that this combination of modules doesn't already provide?
I'm not saying that it's a trivial installation, especially given the scale of things. But I think, as others have hinted at, that after things settle down and the new g.d.o is launched with the d.o. upgrade --, it will be time advocate for improvements in the g.do. notifications system. I personally agree with Earl that clicking on a link in an email is fine. But I think we need to have an open discussion about what is the best notifications system that will serve the broadest range of personal work-flows so that people would feel comfortable dumping Mailman.
One other point in the general discussion. Some are arguing, "I like list serves, I want to do this kind of thing on email." Remember that all the people who will only follow this kind of conversation via RSS are not participating here, by definition, because Mailman doesn't do RSS.
Shai
On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Kieran Lal <kieran@acquia.com> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Jamie Holly <hovercrafter@earthlink.net> wrote:
Yeah I got an email from a GDO group yesterday for a message that was posted 4 days earlier.
But what would be really cool, though require some custom module work, is a way to make G.D.O operate more like Google Groups. People could choose to use the web site and/or email - ala listserv style. Of course that would require pumping emails through a script handler, which can be done in PHP. It would also be a rather sweet contrib module to allow other sites to do a similar type system.
Great idea!
We started in 2005 an released it in 2006. http://drupal.org/project/og2list
Everybody wants it but nobody wants to fund it.
Kieran
Jamie Holly http://www.intoxination.net http://www.hollyit.net
Earl Miles wrote:
Until g.d.o gets actually useful email notifications, I am against
this.
Right now, g.d.o is useless to me, because the notifications system has regressed.
(All we really need is good titling and threaded support, for my
purposes.
it doesn't need to *respond* to email, I'm perfectly ok with clicking a link to reply).
Shai Gluskin wrote:
I'm pulling this out as a separate thread...
Jenniver wrote, Shai Gluskin wrote: 3. *Move dev list to g.d.o.* [...] > I can sympathize with your desire to have a more searchable output > for > this list, on-line forums such as g.d.o are a huge barrier to > > participation compared to email lists. So if this list is moved to g.d.o and we want it to still be a useful > list with immediate feedback and lots of participants, we would also > need to provide a way for people to participate fully via email (i.e. > make it so it looks and acts just like an email list). In which case, > the threads will look/act/search like email, and I don't think we will have solved anything. --Jennifer My issue with the search results at > http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/development is not the formatting; > it's the content. Searching on terms like "module development" the top > results are from March. I mean, there really is something wrong. Given the delays in upgrading to the new d.o. design, I'm not sure where > things stand. But I know there were definitely discussions about > tweaking the notifications system and also adding Mail Comment (formerly > Mail2Web): http://drupal.org/node/634074. Mail Comment would allow for > replicating list serve functionality for folks who don't want to go to > g.d.o. And again... I don't care about the formatting; I want the > transparency, the integration with d.o. web sites, it running on Drupal, > and also the much more personal and community feel you get at g.d.o with > user pics/profiles etc. With Mail Comment we can have the push of the > list serve but the better functionality of g.d.o. Shai
participants (11)
-
Antonio P. P. Almeida -
David Cohen -
Earl Miles -
James Gilliland -
Jamie Holly -
Kieran Lal -
Kyle Mathews -
larry＠garfieldtech.com -
Nancy Wichmann -
Shai Gluskin -
Victor Kane