Re: [drupal-devel] reviews needed
As promised: Even though this was very informal, and not audited, and of course, putting the students on the spot (which didn't give them time to think about this), I did the "usability testing". I wrote down on the white board in front of the computer room (50 students seating and some standing around): (Don't comment on the validity of the URLs) www.nwu.ac.za/admin/node/34/spider/23 www.nwu.ac.za/library 1. URL 2. Custom URL 3. Path 4. Custom Path 5. Custom URL Path 6. URL Path 7. Short name 8. Alias Then I asked: "If you are presented with the above two web addresses, it would obviously be easier to remember the second one than the first one. Now imagine I have set the two to go to the exact same address. If the first one is called URL, what will you call the second one?" I had 34 responses, as follows: 3 - URL 8 - Custom URL 0 - Path 0 - Custom Path 7 - Custom URL Path 0 - URL Path 13 - Short name 3 - Alias Then I decided this is not very useful, so I tried another approach: "If I present you with the following words to make up a name for this second web address, which words would you use?" 1. Path 2. Alias 3. Short 4. Name 5. URL 6. Custom (I then proceeded to cycle through these words, and counted how many would use the specific word in the name. I didn't restrict the number of votes an individual can make, because, obviously, they can have more than one word in the name.) The votes were as follows: Path - 22 votes Alias - 6 votes Short - 30 votes Name - 20 votes URL - 9 votes Custom - 5 votes If my "quick and dirty usability testing" means anything, the obvious choice for the name would be one that contains the words short, name and path, such as: Short path Short name Regards, Kobus
ITBJDM@puknet.puk.ac.za 10/5/2005 4:21:31 PM >>> Perhaps someone can do some actual usability testing with some of these names, so that we're not just arguing back and forth over nothing?
Leave this to me. I will provide feedback in roughly 15 minutes. I have access to a full computer lab of students at this very moment. Kobus
Great job. I would agree "short" is the word we're looking for. A 2 year old knows what it is and it avoids all jargon. I'll make one more suggestion to throw into the mix: "short address". On 10/5/05, Kobus Myburgh <ITBJDM@puknet.puk.ac.za> wrote:
As promised:
Even though this was very informal, and not audited, and of course, putting the students on the spot (which didn't give them time to think about this), I did the "usability testing". I wrote down on the white board in front of the computer room (50 students seating and some standing around):
(Don't comment on the validity of the URLs)
www.nwu.ac.za/admin/node/34/spider/23 www.nwu.ac.za/library
1. URL 2. Custom URL 3. Path 4. Custom Path 5. Custom URL Path 6. URL Path 7. Short name 8. Alias
Then I asked:
"If you are presented with the above two web addresses, it would obviously be easier to remember the second one than the first one. Now imagine I have set the two to go to the exact same address. If the first one is called URL, what will you call the second one?"
I had 34 responses, as follows:
3 - URL 8 - Custom URL 0 - Path 0 - Custom Path 7 - Custom URL Path 0 - URL Path 13 - Short name 3 - Alias
Then I decided this is not very useful, so I tried another approach:
"If I present you with the following words to make up a name for this second web address, which words would you use?"
1. Path 2. Alias 3. Short 4. Name 5. URL 6. Custom
(I then proceeded to cycle through these words, and counted how many would use the specific word in the name. I didn't restrict the number of votes an individual can make, because, obviously, they can have more than one word in the name.)
The votes were as follows:
Path - 22 votes Alias - 6 votes Short - 30 votes Name - 20 votes URL - 9 votes Custom - 5 votes
If my "quick and dirty usability testing" means anything, the obvious choice for the name would be one that contains the words short, name and path, such as:
Short path Short name
Regards,
Kobus
ITBJDM@puknet.puk.ac.za 10/5/2005 4:21:31 PM >>> Perhaps someone can do some actual usability testing with some of these names, so that we're not just arguing back and forth over nothing?
Leave this to me. I will provide feedback in roughly 15 minutes. I have access to a full computer lab of students at this very moment.
Kobus
-- Dondley Communications http://www.dondleycommunications.com Communicate or Die: American Labor Unions and the Internet http://www.communicateordie.com
In this example, students are going to pick 'short' as an appropriate word because of the way it is presented. Try this real life example: http://www.licc.org.uk/bookshop/node/46 http://www.licc.org.uk/bookshop/books/id-like-to-believe-but-michael-green-n... In actual fact on my websites I always try to use a URL 'alias' (except for forums), and tend to consider it the main and only URL for the given page. Steve Dondley wrote:
Great job. I would agree "short" is the word we're looking for. A 2 year old knows what it is and it avoids all jargon. I'll make one more suggestion to throw into the mix: "short address".
On 10/5/05, Kobus Myburgh <ITBJDM@puknet.puk.ac.za> wrote:
www.nwu.ac.za/admin/node/34/spider/23 www.nwu.ac.za/library
Besides the fact that I do think this threath is going nowhere, and people are getting overreacting, I'll put in another proposal: 'Custom post address' or 'Easy access address'.. Stefan Op 5-okt-2005, om 19:21 heeft rkendall het volgende geschreven:
In this example, students are going to pick 'short' as an appropriate word because of the way it is presented. Try this real life example:
http://www.licc.org.uk/bookshop/node/46 http://www.licc.org.uk/bookshop/books/id-like-to-believe-but- michael-green-nick-spencer-1844740730
In actual fact on my websites I always try to use a URL 'alias' (except for forums), and tend to consider it the main and only URL for the given page.
Steve Dondley wrote:
Great job. I would agree "short" is the word we're looking for. A 2 year old knows what it is and it avoids all jargon. I'll make one more suggestion to throw into the mix: "short address".
On 10/5/05, Kobus Myburgh <ITBJDM@puknet.puk.ac.za> wrote:
www.nwu.ac.za/admin/node/34/spider/23 www.nwu.ac.za/library
I just thought of one other word that you didn't list to the students: "simple". Here's why: Compare "http://www.example.com/node/7" to http://www.example.com/library" Both are short. But one is "simple" to remember. On 10/5/05, Kobus Myburgh <ITBJDM@puknet.puk.ac.za> wrote:
As promised:
Even though this was very informal, and not audited, and of course, putting the students on the spot (which didn't give them time to think about this), I did the "usability testing". I wrote down on the white board in front of the computer room (50 students seating and some standing around):
(Don't comment on the validity of the URLs)
www.nwu.ac.za/admin/node/34/spider/23 www.nwu.ac.za/library
1. URL 2. Custom URL 3. Path 4. Custom Path 5. Custom URL Path 6. URL Path 7. Short name 8. Alias
Then I asked:
"If you are presented with the above two web addresses, it would obviously be easier to remember the second one than the first one. Now imagine I have set the two to go to the exact same address. If the first one is called URL, what will you call the second one?"
I had 34 responses, as follows:
3 - URL 8 - Custom URL 0 - Path 0 - Custom Path 7 - Custom URL Path 0 - URL Path 13 - Short name 3 - Alias
Then I decided this is not very useful, so I tried another approach:
"If I present you with the following words to make up a name for this second web address, which words would you use?"
1. Path 2. Alias 3. Short 4. Name 5. URL 6. Custom
(I then proceeded to cycle through these words, and counted how many would use the specific word in the name. I didn't restrict the number of votes an individual can make, because, obviously, they can have more than one word in the name.)
The votes were as follows:
Path - 22 votes Alias - 6 votes Short - 30 votes Name - 20 votes URL - 9 votes Custom - 5 votes
If my "quick and dirty usability testing" means anything, the obvious choice for the name would be one that contains the words short, name and path, such as:
Short path Short name
Regards,
Kobus
ITBJDM@puknet.puk.ac.za 10/5/2005 4:21:31 PM >>> Perhaps someone can do some actual usability testing with some of these names, so that we're not just arguing back and forth over nothing?
Leave this to me. I will provide feedback in roughly 15 minutes. I have access to a full computer lab of students at this very moment.
Kobus
-- Dondley Communications http://www.dondleycommunications.com Communicate or Die: American Labor Unions and the Internet http://www.communicateordie.com
Thank you Morbus for insisting on semantic correctness. Thank you Kobus for doing field research... I find your results to be conclusive. I vote for "Short path". -Robert Kobus Myburgh wrote:
As promised:
Even though this was very informal, and not audited, and of course, putting the students on the spot (which didn't give them time to think about this), I did the "usability testing". I wrote down on the white board in front of the computer room (50 students seating and some standing around):
(Don't comment on the validity of the URLs)
www.nwu.ac.za/admin/node/34/spider/23 www.nwu.ac.za/library
1. URL 2. Custom URL 3. Path 4. Custom Path 5. Custom URL Path 6. URL Path 7. Short name 8. Alias
Then I asked:
"If you are presented with the above two web addresses, it would obviously be easier to remember the second one than the first one. Now imagine I have set the two to go to the exact same address. If the first one is called URL, what will you call the second one?"
I had 34 responses, as follows:
3 - URL 8 - Custom URL 0 - Path 0 - Custom Path 7 - Custom URL Path 0 - URL Path 13 - Short name 3 - Alias
Then I decided this is not very useful, so I tried another approach:
"If I present you with the following words to make up a name for this second web address, which words would you use?"
1. Path 2. Alias 3. Short 4. Name 5. URL 6. Custom
(I then proceeded to cycle through these words, and counted how many would use the specific word in the name. I didn't restrict the number of votes an individual can make, because, obviously, they can have more than one word in the name.)
The votes were as follows:
Path - 22 votes Alias - 6 votes Short - 30 votes Name - 20 votes URL - 9 votes Custom - 5 votes
If my "quick and dirty usability testing" means anything, the obvious choice for the name would be one that contains the words short, name and path, such as:
Short path Short name
Regards,
Kobus
ITBJDM@puknet.puk.ac.za 10/5/2005 4:21:31 PM >>>
Perhaps someone can do some actual usability testing with some of these names, so that we're not just arguing back and forth over nothing?
Leave this to me. I will provide feedback in roughly 15 minutes. I have access to a full computer lab of students at this very moment.
Kobus
Thank you Morbus for insisting on semantic correctness. Thank you Kobus for doing field research... I find your results to be conclusive. I vote for "Short path".
I gotta be a dick. This is from a Real Life example: http://www.site.com/node/34 http://www.site.com/why_drupal The second is not "short" (or, rather, the implied "shorter"), but it is a far stronger URL than the first. What follows is an upcoming example: http://www.site.com/node/1 http://www.site.com/about/morbus The same problem applies. -- Morbus Iff ( i am the horrible hogglewart ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
I'd also send a big w00t to Korbus for quick turnaround time. As people have pointed out, though, "short" is not always true. "Simple path", however, would have much the same effect. "Simple" often means "short", implicitly, but it doesn't have to be. The whole idea of the alias is to make the URL "simpler" or "easier" to remember and type. On Wednesday 05 October 2005 05:12 pm, Morbus Iff wrote:
Thank you Morbus for insisting on semantic correctness. Thank you Kobus for doing field research... I find your results to be conclusive. I vote for "Short path".
I gotta be a dick. This is from a Real Life example:
http://www.site.com/node/34 http://www.site.com/why_drupal
The second is not "short" (or, rather, the implied "shorter"), but it is a far stronger URL than the first.
What follows is an upcoming example:
http://www.site.com/node/1 http://www.site.com/about/morbus
The same problem applies.
-- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
On 5-Oct-05, at 3:49 PM, Robert Douglass wrote:
Thank you Morbus for insisting on semantic correctness. Thank you Kobus for doing field research... I find your results to be conclusive. I vote for "Short path".
I vote for never having a discussion like this on the developer list ever again. Join the documentation list and move discussion of labels and language there. -- Boris Mann http://www.bmannconsulting.com
I vote for never having a discussion like this on the developer list ever again. Join the documentation list and move discussion of labels and language there.
Realize that the proposed patch encompasses far more than just the labeling - it also contains function renaming, as well as database schema changes. Those are not the realm of the documentation list. -- Morbus Iff ( masochism-oriented recombinant bot (unlisted series) ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
On 5-Oct-05, at 3:19 PM, Morbus Iff wrote:
I vote for never having a discussion like this on the developer list ever again. Join the documentation list and move discussion of labels and language there.
Realize that the proposed patch encompasses far more than just the labeling - it also contains function renaming, as well as database schema changes. Those are not the realm of the documentation list.
Sure...except all the discussion has been labeling. e.g. taxonomy is called "categories" on the menu, but the module didn't get renamed. -- Boris Mann http://www.bmannconsulting.com
Sure...except all the discussion has been labeling. e.g. taxonomy is called "categories" on the menu, but the module didn't get renamed.
.. .... .. Another +1 for "taxonomy" instead of "categories"! :) -- Morbus Iff ( est quaedam flere voluptas ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
I have to hazard a guess that the lengthy discussions in the drupal-devel list a by product of us removing the issues from being mirrored here (which is a good thing). Now back to Custom Short Alias Path URL ... I know other CMS's call it "short URL", but that is because their URLs are notoriously long with lots of arguments For example, here is the home page of Post Nuke (the same terminology is used for Xaraya and others) http://www.postnuke.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Navigation&file=index So, changing it to http://www.postnuke.com/article1234.html is really shortening it. Drupal's URLs have always been short, specially so after 4.5, just "node/123". So, if we want to go with the industry jargon, then "short url" can be it, but it will be a misnomer. This is where contrived names are useful: they are often meaningless and just invented to coin a term (thing AJAX, Yahoo, ...etc.) I think that the discussion has taken more bandwidth from all of us than really warranted. It looked like we had consensus for a while, but then it turned around completely. Perhaps it is the vocal minority syndrome ? Other alternatives: Why don't we setup a poll on Drupal.org for such things as naming features, and see what is voted for the most? On 10/5/05, Morbus Iff <morbus@disobey.com> wrote:
Sure...except all the discussion has been labeling. e.g. taxonomy is called "categories" on the menu, but the module didn't get renamed.
.. .... .. Another +1 for "taxonomy" instead of "categories"!
:)
-- Morbus Iff ( est quaedam flere voluptas ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
I like the discussion and since it revolves around a patch that we need to get committed, I think it should stay here. We can cross post it, though. -Robert Boris Mann wrote:
On 5-Oct-05, at 3:49 PM, Robert Douglass wrote:
Thank you Morbus for insisting on semantic correctness. Thank you Kobus for doing field research... I find your results to be conclusive. I vote for "Short path".
I vote for never having a discussion like this on the developer list ever again. Join the documentation list and move discussion of labels and language there.
-- Boris Mann http://www.bmannconsulting.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06 Oct 2005, at 11:29 AM, Robert Douglass wrote:
I like the discussion and since it revolves around a patch that we need to get committed, I think it should stay here. We can cross post it, though. Since people don't seem to be agreeing, it made me wonder ..
Has anyone ever considered a locale_light module which allows a developer to specify some strings in an array, and just use those to translate small strings. I've often wanted to change strings (blog to journal for instance) , but the entire locale module is incredible overkill for my purposes. - -- Adrian Rossouw Drupal developer and Bryght Guy http://drupal.org | http://bryght.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDRRJfgegMqdGlkasRAoEpAJ9xLj35NL34yoCIq8GEnJnnvHhiHgCeO9XJ BLkJq67Eu59bR2Lky7tkcL8= =uRoN -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Thursday 06 October 2005 07:02 am, Adrian Rossouw wrote:
Has anyone ever considered a locale_light module which allows a developer to specify some strings in an array, and just use those to translate small strings.
I've often wanted to change strings (blog to journal for instance) , but the entire locale module is incredible overkill for my purposes.
As Morbus said, the "drop back and punt" answer is rarely a good one. However, you can do that now with the locale module without too much difficulty. Just create a new locale called "English-Custom" or similar, attached to en-us. Then visit the page you want to edit a string on (to get it into the database table), then go and enter new text for that string. I did that recently for a project with a client and it worked out quite well. (We wanted to rename "user" to "Team user" and various other similar changes.) Some posted instructions on how to use locale that way would be good, but it's not necessary to make a new module for it. -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06 Oct 2005, at 3:17 PM, Larry Garfield wrote:
On Thursday 06 October 2005 07:02 am, Adrian Rossouw wrote:
Has anyone ever considered a locale_light module which allows a developer to specify some strings in an array, and just use those to translate small strings.
I've often wanted to change strings (blog to journal for instance) , but the entire locale module is incredible overkill for my purposes.
As Morbus said, the "drop back and punt" answer is rarely a good one.
However, you can do that now with the locale module without too much difficulty. Just create a new locale called "English-Custom" or similar, attached to en-us. Then visit the page you want to edit a string on (to get it into the database table), then go and enter new text for that string. I did that recently for a project with a client and it worked out quite well. (We wanted to rename "user" to "Team user" and various other similar changes.) Some posted instructions on how to use locale that way would be good, but it's not necessary to make a new module for it. Versus :
filename : locale_simple.module. ==========snip================ function locale($string) { $string['Custom URL'] = 'Path Alias'; return $translate[$string]; } ==========snip================ Done. - -- Adrian Rossouw Drupal developer and Bryght Guy http://drupal.org | http://bryght.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDRSZPgegMqdGlkasRAjl1AKDLsnvyQajxk7pZsRyjQjIBeE3xqACdHEK9 bS9o+eDFvBFsIgTiLM97gv0= =STC4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 *blush* On 06 Oct 2005, at 3:27 PM, Adrian Rossouw wrote:
function locale($string) { $string['Custom URL'] = 'Path Alias'; return $translate[$string]; } Should be :
function locale($string) { $translate['Custom URL'] = 'Path Alias'; return $translate[$string]; } Even 4 lines of code can contain bugs. - -- Adrian Rossouw Drupal developer and Bryght Guy http://drupal.org | http://bryght.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDRSlRgegMqdGlkasRAkE3AKC5VTTzQ0WYWfK/Yy+zIjm86tAWGwCgnDNU vq+ws1tgmx+P0wFonUxVWoE= =MatI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Op 6-okt-2005, om 15:40 heeft Adrian Rossouw het volgende geschreven:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
*blush* On 06 Oct 2005, at 3:27 PM, Adrian Rossouw wrote:
function locale($string) { $string['Custom URL'] = 'Path Alias'; return $translate[$string]; }
Should be :
function locale($string) { $translate['Custom URL'] = 'Path Alias'; return $translate[$string]; }
Even 4 lines of code can contain bugs. While I do like this for usage, this isn't going to work and gives me the following error: "Fatal error: Call to undefined function locale_supported_languages() in /Applications/MAMP/htdocs/drupalcvs/includes/common.inc on line 595"
I think locale_supported_languages() should return an array with supported languages.. So, I tried this: function locale_supported_languages() { $languages = array('nl' => 'Dutch'); return languages; } Which unfortunatly doesn't work... Any idea's? I'll contribute the little module once it's done... Stefan
function locale($string) { $translate['Custom URL'] = 'Path Alias'; return $translate[$string]; }
Even 4 lines of code can contain bugs.
How would this work with translations. You say you would like to provide this feature to English users. What if someone in a translation would like to do a similar change? BTW have you checked how many times 'path alias' appears in interface and help texts? This is going to be a big array for such a simple change, and you are going to maintain string copies this way too... Goba
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06 Oct 2005, at 3:17 PM, Larry Garfield wrote:
However, you can do that now with the locale module without too much difficulty. Just create a new locale called "English-Custom" or similar, attached to en-us. And don't think I don't like locale ... locale is great and all. But sometimes it's just serious overkill.
- -- Adrian Rossouw Drupal developer and Bryght Guy http://drupal.org | http://bryght.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDRSdCgegMqdGlkasRAn4HAJ955jIg3zg2HHXBMCEqueUp5GsKRACfRsP6 18xC8UJ3DwDRiIqDqFiuHaM= =8De/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (12)
-
Adrian Rossouw -
Boris Mann -
Gabor Hojtsy -
Khalid B -
Kobus Myburgh -
Larry Garfield -
Morbus Iff -
rkendall -
Robert Douglass -
Stefan -
Stefan -
Steve Dondley