Fwd: Drupal.org uprade: contributed module dependencies
Oops, typo in e-mail address. Begin forwarded message:
From: Chad Phillips -- Apartment Lines <chad@apartmentlines.com> Date: Mon 26 Nov 2007 20:11:40 GMT+01:00 To: Dries Buytaert <dries@buytaert.net> Cc: developement@drupal.org, Derek Wright <drupal@dwwright.net>, James Walker <walkah@walkah.net> Subject: Re: Drupal.org uprade: contributed module dependencies
our current project* roadmap to 6.x is here: http://groups.drupal.org/node/6180
as you can see, much still remains to be done. we could shortcut some of that stuff and start the port to 6.x sooner, but i think that will only make things harder for derek and i in the long run, and i'd prefer not to do that.
both of us have communicated our need for assistance in getting project* 6.x compat (multiple times on the mailing list, in IRC, etc), mentioning that it could hold up a D6 release -- but sadly, few have stepped up to help. on the bright side, there has been good recent progress in the views conversion.
i'd say it's theoretically possible to have everything done in 4 weeks -- but realistically, unless we get some funding, or more people pitching in now, it's not gonna happen.
chad
On Nov 26, 2007, at 7:18 PM, Dries Buytaert wrote:
Hello all,
traditionally, one of the requirements to release a major Drupal release, is us eating our own dogfood at drupal.org. That is, we always maintained a tradition of testing a major Drupal release on drupal.org itself.
As a first release candidate is eminent, I want to reach out and inquiry about the status of the contributed modules that we use on drupal.org, and the project/issue related modules in particular.
Other notable modules that drupal.org depends on are the image module, the image gallery module, the simplenews module, the port stemmer module, the code filter module, and the CVS integration module.
What is the likelihood of these modules being production-ready in the next 2-4 weeks? It would be great to get a status update from their maintainers. We should start a concentrated effort to get this modules in prime condition relatively soon. If not, they risk being release blockers.
Thanks,
-- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
-- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Hi, I would like to offer the rewritten subscriptions module to a) replace project subscriptions b) while there, replace simplenews Hans Salvisberg and myself have been working on it and it's in pretty good shape by now. I am considering a beta release for 5.x any day now. I will probably move it to Drupal.org CVS today. It lives at https://4si.devguard.com/svn/public but there is no install yet, so it's a bit hard to install. I do not think the mysql dump is up to date either... If this offer is accepted -- we seem to be kind of agreed on a) with Chad -- then I would like to get testers. Also, please consider breaking the tradition. There is no realistic chance views 2 being ready for Drupal 6 this year and that seems a crucial problem. There are some other "little" pieces and bits. Regards, NK
Hi, Karoly Negyesi wrote:
Hi,
...
Also, please consider breaking the tradition. There is no realistic chance views 2 being ready for Drupal 6 this year and that seems a crucial problem. There are some other "little" pieces and bits.
Actually I think this is a sign of another underlying problem that the exponential growth of the community has caused. In previous release cycles at this time most of the major projects have been ported, so they are at least working if not ready for the next stable release of Drupal. One of the biggest changes at least what I think is that now is that most of the developers are now doing this full time and setting the balance between paid work and fun development of contributed modules sometimes becomes very hard. I know myself with e-Commerce realistically I don't see use getting out a completely new stable version until early Feb which is 2 months away. And I will still need to convert it to Drupal 6. ATM I feel that majority of the heavy lifting when it comes to coding is still being done by a small group of people. I know the bar is being lowered when it comes to developing for Drupal (developing != coding) as it is a lot more point and click to get Drupal to do things. I think we need to find ways to get the coders working on the major contributed modules like views and cck (if we do not have these modules at the release of Drupal 6 it will be very bad) working on getting the Drupal 6 releases done. Maybe the Drupal Association needs to not only deal with the infrastructure but maybe also look at bringing on some full time coders whos job it is to not only code for Core, but also run around the edges and bring some of the more important contributed modules up to the next release. I think with the release of Drupal 6 we really not in a time crunch as Drupal 5 still has some teeth and we are still doing quite amazing things with it. It is not like when we were doing the 4.7 release and everyone was clambering to get sites onto it. If I am still releasing sites on Drupal 5.x I don't think that it is stopping me from still putting out great sites. We do need to make sure the major contributed modules are all go at the time of the Drupal 6 release. I know myself that I couldn't deploy sites without views and cck (I could but I don't want to go back to the dark old days before views and cck) and there are most likely other modules that people would consider show stoppers. I think that Drupal 6 is a different release than any of the previous releases of Drupal. We have modules outside of core which we need before we can more forward. Gordon.
On Nov 27, 2007 10:46 AM, Gordon Heydon <gordon@heydon.com.au> wrote: <snip stuff about developer motivations>
ATM I feel that majority of the heavy lifting when it comes to coding is still being done by a small group of people. I know the bar is being lowered when it comes to developing for Drupal (developing != coding) as it is a lot more point and click to get Drupal to do things.
Statistics show otherwise - each successive version of Drupal sees more people participating in the issue queue and more people contributing patches 4.7 saw 338 patch contributors while 5.0 saw 492 patch contributors. Drumm's presentation about "who uploaded the first attachment" to the core issue queue shows a concentration in small numbers of people (err...person...chx) but it also showed a really long tail. See http://groups.drupal.org/node/6551 for more stastics.
I think we need to find ways to get the coders working on the major contributed modules like views and cck (if we do not have these modules at the release of Drupal 6 it will be very bad) working on getting the Drupal 6 releases done.
That's largley up to the module maintainers and the people they can motivate to get involved. CCK is actually reasonably close. Views and Project are a bigger concern since they hold up Drupal.org and they are both actively seeking help (though not always getting it).
Maybe the Drupal Association needs to not only deal with the infrastructure but maybe also look at bringing on some full time coders whos job it is to not only code for Core, but also run around the edges and bring some of the more important contributed modules up to the next release.
AFAIK, that's against the bylaws. See http://association.drupal.org/about/introduction It's a little confusing though since it says it can't direct "planning or development" but it could "Support development by awarding grants or paying wages." Perhaps someone from the association could clarify that. I'm not sure the association has funds to do this anyway.
We do need to make sure the major contributed modules are all go at the time of the Drupal 6 release. I know myself that I couldn't deploy sites without views and cck (I could but I don't want to go back to the dark old days before views and cck) and there are most likely other modules that people would consider show stoppers.
Certainly valid, but Drupal6 is still a moving target which makes work towards porting less valuable. Many developers wait for an RC prior to working on their ports. See http://groups.drupal.org/node/5036 for details on the status of many modules - many of which are updated. And if I can hijack attention even further afield from the initial messages...one idea that might help contribs get updated faster is currently sitting with a bunch of +1 in the forums: "Developer releases -- release early, release often" http://drupal.org/node/190901 Regards, Greg -- Greg Knaddison Denver, CO | http://knaddison.com World Spanish Tour | http://wanderlusting.org/user/greg
Maybe the Drupal Association needs to not only deal with the infrastructure but maybe also look at bringing on some full time coders whos job it is to not only code for Core, but also run around the edges and bring some of the more important contributed modules up to the next release.
AFAIK, that's against the bylaws. See http://association.drupal.org/about/introduction
It's a little confusing though since it says it can't direct "planning or development" but it could "Support development by awarding grants or paying wages." Perhaps someone from the association could clarify that. I'm not sure the association has funds to do this anyway.
The Drupal Association can hire people to work on core or contrib code. We haven't done so in the past that I can recall, but we will be voting on a proposal to fund the project module port in our next meeting. That module suite is key for running our web site - drupal.org The bylaw restriction you refer to is that the Association cannot dictate what gets committed and what does not. Thats left up the community, as has always been the case.
Hi, Greg Knaddison wrote:
On Nov 27, 2007 10:46 AM, Gordon Heydon <gordon@heydon.com.au> wrote: <snip stuff about developer motivations>
ATM I feel that majority of the heavy lifting when it comes to coding is still being done by a small group of people. I know the bar is being lowered when it comes to developing for Drupal (developing != coding) as it is a lot more point and click to get Drupal to do things.
Statistics show otherwise - each successive version of Drupal sees more people participating in the issue queue and more people contributing patches 4.7 saw 338 patch contributors while 5.0 saw 492 patch contributors. Drumm's presentation about "who uploaded the first attachment" to the core issue queue shows a concentration in small numbers of people (err...person...chx) but it also showed a really long tail.
See http://groups.drupal.org/node/6551 for more stastics.
Yes, but the heavy lifting, ie the deep dark and significant updates are by the minority.
I think we need to find ways to get the coders working on the major contributed modules like views and cck (if we do not have these modules at the release of Drupal 6 it will be very bad) working on getting the Drupal 6 releases done.
That's largley up to the module maintainers and the people they can motivate to get involved. CCK is actually reasonably close. Views and Project are a bigger concern since they hold up Drupal.org and they are both actively seeking help (though not always getting it).
I know this is a problem in e-Commerce, but then again e-Commerce is not one of the sexy modules like views or cck. Rallying people around those modules is sometimes easier.
Maybe the Drupal Association needs to not only deal with the infrastructure but maybe also look at bringing on some full time coders whos job it is to not only code for Core, but also run around the edges and bring some of the more important contributed modules up to the next release.
AFAIK, that's against the bylaws. See http://association.drupal.org/about/introduction
It's a little confusing though since it says it can't direct "planning or development" but it could "Support development by awarding grants or paying wages." Perhaps someone from the association could clarify that. I'm not sure the association has funds to do this anyway.
Either way, this is something that if it needed to be could be changed at the association level. It is not like it is written in stone.
We do need to make sure the major contributed modules are all go at the time of the Drupal 6 release. I know myself that I couldn't deploy sites without views and cck (I could but I don't want to go back to the dark old days before views and cck) and there are most likely other modules that people would consider show stoppers.
Certainly valid, but Drupal6 is still a moving target which makes work towards porting less valuable. Many developers wait for an RC prior to working on their ports. See http://groups.drupal.org/node/5036 for details on the status of many modules - many of which are updated.
hmm, maybe but I know in my case it is time to sit down and work on the new version.
And if I can hijack attention even further afield from the initial messages...one idea that might help contribs get updated faster is currently sitting with a bunch of +1 in the forums: "Developer releases -- release early, release often" http://drupal.org/node/190901
+1 hehe sometimes I think the +1 are more of a hindrance then a help. and release early, release often is ok in theory, but it only allows for evolutionary changes not revolutionary. Gordon.
Regards, Greg
On Nov 27, 2007, at 7:46 AM, Gordon Heydon wrote:
Actually I think this is a sign of another underlying problem that the exponential growth of the community has caused.
In previous release cycles at this time most of the major projects have been ported, so they are at least working if not ready for the next stable release of Drupal.
I don't think that's really true. We've had a longish dev cycle, and the early betas were much more "beta" than Drupal 5's. By the time D5 was this stable, there were a handful of modules ported but none of the biggies had been migrated. If you remember, the first module ported to Drupal 5 was the Talk Like A Pirate filter, and for more than a month, it was actually the ONLY Drupal 5 module. ;-) For months following D5's release, people said that it was 'pretty but useless' because it would never have the large library of contrib modules that 4.7 did. We all know how that prediction turned out.
One of the biggest changes at least what I think is that now is that most of the developers are now doing this full time and setting the balance between paid work and fun development of contributed modules sometimes becomes very hard.
Earl Miles, working for Sony, has been able to put MORE time into Views and Panels development, both for D5 and D6, now that he's being paid to work on those important infrastructure tools. Larry Garfield's company Palantir has slotted him for work on the views 2 for D6 upgrade specifically because they as a company depend on it for their work. I've upgraded VotingAPI to D6 already -- and it was one of the 'blocking' modules that kept some people from upgrading to D5 immediately. In many ways, full-time-employment for Drupal development means that developers can more reliably allocate time to the projects that really ARE important. It depends on individual circumstances, obviously, but I know that I would not have had time to tackle anything complex in a short time frame when I was doing Drupal in the evenings for fun. The biggest challenge is not that there is less time, but that the average site in D5 is now built on a much, much larger number of third- party contrib modules. Its not uncommon to have thirty, forty, even fifty contrib modules all contributing to the smooth operation of a normal site. That's not inherently bad, as it springs out of more granular APIs, greater flexibility, and better separation of functionality into complimentary tools. And that means that we depend on not just a handful of important 'headline' modules, but clouds of smaller helper modules, each of which need to be upgraded before the average site can move forward. And most of THEM are, in turn, waiting for those central modules -- Views and CCK -- to be ready first.
I think we need to find ways to get the coders working on the major contributed modules like views and cck (if we do not have these modules at the release of Drupal 6 it will be very bad) working on getting the Drupal 6 releases done.
Maybe the Drupal Association needs to not only deal with the infrastructure but maybe also look at bringing on some full time coders whos job it is to not only code for Core, but also run around the edges and bring some of the more important contributed modules up to the next release.
There are developers working on these projects. There could certainly be more, but the biggest challenges with Views and CCK are simple: they are not just being updated to work with Drupal 6. They are being upgraded to Views 2.0 and CCK 2.0, respectively. With enhanced APIs, long sought-after new features, and so on. This is without a doubt a good thing for the Drupal community, because the new releases promise to solve lots of long-standing frustrations. However, those changes also take time. Whether it would be better to do a 'straight port' of Views 1.6 for Drupal 6, and CCK 1.4 for Drupal 6, is an interesting question. However, it's important to note that when they do ship, they will also take advantage of many of the new and enhanced capabilities of D6. Straight ports wouldn't do that.
I think that Drupal 6 is a different release than any of the previous releases of Drupal. We have modules outside of core which we need before we can more forward.
We've always had those, though. Does anyone remember the emails that went around during the 4.7 and 5.0 release cycles? The lists of 'modules we can't release without'? This isn't a new development. I don't mean to shoot down your concerns. I think that the UI for Views 2, and some of the hook-driven API enhancements for CCK2, are very important but will not be ready for some time (weeks? a month? early January? I don't know.) I just don't think that this is a new development -- it's just the schedule collision of a major core release, and major version upgrades for both of those key modules.
About working on Views: a Call for help was created (http://groups.drupal.org/node/7206) on 19 november with the message "Please leave a comment in this thread about your availability, what you capabilities are, and what you'd be willing to work on. We'll handle it from there." Comments were made, with the suggestion to do a Dojo session on this. This would be a good place to start to get things rolling again. Wim
On 27.Nov.2007, at 07:17, Karoly Negyesi wrote:
If this offer is accepted -- we seem to be kind of agreed on a) with Chad -- then I would like to get testers.
me, me, me! Liza Sabater, Publisher www.culturekitchen.com www.dailygotham.com MOB - 646.552.7365 AIM - cultkitdiva
participants (8)
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blogdiva＠culturekitchen.com -
Dries Buytaert -
Gordon Heydon -
Greg Knaddison -
Jeff Eaton -
Karoly Negyesi -
Moshe Weitzman -
Wim Mostrey