Re: [development] Drupal 6 release schedule
Gerhard Killesreiter wrote:
You are probably wrong there.
My apologies, I gave you the benefit of the doubt - won't happen again.
What do you want? I even wrote "please". (Which was the part which I really didn't mean, if you want to know.) Sorry, but if he can't operate google, then he's on the wrong mailing list.
Well for starters it might be a nice general rule to just not send anything if you are only going to write something that is not only unproductive but also rude and condescending. Just *try* to put yourself in the shoes of a new developer to the Drupal project for a second. Is it better to be completely condescending when someone asks a question thereby giving them a bad impression of the developer community or would it be better to either a) not say anything or b) be polite and helpful? Option b shows leadership because you've potentially won a new developer to work on the project. Option a is available if you really don't care or can't do option b. Now if someone is being clearly annoying a personal message to that person may be in order, but it certainly isn't out of line for someone new to the list to ask a question like that and if your standard is that they should be aware of every conversation that has ever taken place since drupal began, well that's just ridiculous and insane. People get interested in things topically, and the first impulse isn't--and shouldn't be--maybe I should consult google to see if that was discussed before because that indicates some kind of final decision when that isn't what this is. I've seen long standing things change at the drop of a hat when someone makes a case for them, and that should be encouraged.
Raven Brooks wrote:
Gerhard Killesreiter wrote:
You are probably wrong there.
My apologies, I gave you the benefit of the doubt - won't happen again.
That will eradicate many sources of misunderstanding.
What do you want? I even wrote "please". (Which was the part which I really didn't mean, if you want to know.) Sorry, but if he can't operate google, then he's on the wrong mailing list.
Well for starters it might be a nice general rule to just not send anything if you are only going to write something that is not only unproductive but also rude and condescending.
I wrote that mail to stop a useless discussion on "how the development process of Drupal is fundamentally broken" in its infancy.
Just *try* to put yourself in the shoes of a new developer to the Drupal project for a second.
It was a hard time. It has made me strong. I wish for others to be strong too. I make them a hard time too.
Is it better to be completely condescending when
Please don't use complicated words with foreigners.
someone asks a question thereby giving them a bad impression of the developer community or would it be better to either a) not say anything or b) be polite and helpful? Option b shows leadership because you've potentially won a new developer to work on the project.
Wrong. Making others hard time shows leadership.
Option a is available if you really don't care or can't do option b.
I am genetically and legally prohibited from using option b).
Now if someone is being clearly annoying a personal message to that person may be in order, but it certainly isn't out of line for someone new to the
This required a public message since everybody else could also continue the useless discussion.
list to ask a question like that and if your standard is that they should be aware of every conversation that has ever taken place since drupal began, well that's just ridiculous and insane. People get interested in things topically, and the first impulse isn't--and shouldn't be--maybe I should consult google to see if that was discussed before because that indicates some kind of final decision when that isn't what this is.
That's where you are wrong again. If I feel the need to make a suggestion, then I need to do research if anybody else brought the topic up.
I've seen long standing things change at the drop of a hat when someone makes a case for them, and that should be encouraged.
Maybe you next time come up with ideas of your own instead of defending people who haven't asked to be defended... Cheers, Gerhard
I just want to defend Gerhard (even though he didn't ask to be). It wasn't that bad. Let's not be so sensitive. Getting a taste of another persons annoyance/anger/frustration communicates a *lot* about a situation. That's what I've learnt from the dev list. Say what you think. Grow a skin. Stuff goes faster.
Maybe you next time come up with ideas of your own instead of defending people who haven't asked to be defended...
Cheers, Gerhard
Gerhard Killesreiter wrote:
I wrote that mail to stop a useless discussion on "how the development process of Drupal is fundamentally broken" in its infancy. Well, everyone - next time you have a question - send it to Gerhard first to know whether it's useless or not. Come on... Sending people to the archives is one thing, although it can be done in a much nicer, human manners, but classifying a discussion as useless.. well that's not very useful itself. It was a hard time. It has made me strong. I wish for others to be strong too. I make them a hard time too. I don't really see the point of making other people's life hard, just because you had some hard time. This doesn't lead to improvements. Wrong. Making others hard time shows leadership. I'll use your own words: "Stop right there!". Being rude didn't get me to see you as a leader. At least not mine. *You're a great contributor*, that's for sure, and I acknowledge it. You have contributed to Drupal a zillion times more than me or many other developers around. *That doesn't make you a leader*, nor giving you the right to be rude with anyone. Let's separate our contribution to Drupal from how important we feel we are. Professional respect doesn't always go with personal one. Maybe you next time come up with ideas of your own instead of defending people who haven't asked to be defended... Do people need to apply for defense? This is really ridiculous. What is this - a court? This is a mailing list. It is used for discussion. Your words will be heard with greater understanding if you use them nicely.
Just recently I commented about another weird discussion in the list (the famous "sarcasm vs. F word" case). I'll say it again: Drupal has a high reputation of having quality discussions, in the forums and in the mailing lists. This, amongst other good reasons, is what made Druapl development what it is. It doesn't mean that each and every discussion is relevant, but we all have enough words in our vocabulary that can put an end to a discussion in a polite, civilized way.
This whole topic of conversation is not new nor unique to Drupal or Gerhard. I spent several years on the Source Mage development team, and it was not uncommon for a new person to show up on the mail list with a "Why is this.." or a "We should.." type of post only to be pointed (sometimes politely, sometimes rudely - it largely depended on the topic, the person doing the pointing and sometimes that person's current mood) to the mail list archives and previous discussions of the topic. I challenge any one of you to search through the archives of any development list and not find the same sort of occasional cyclic conversations. If you do find a list without them, chances are good the list is not very lively. On-line communities are not new, and didn't originate with Drupal, the World Wide Web nor the Internet. Anyone who does not have the fore-thought or inclination to do a little leg work before posting, especially with a list like this one, will eventually meet with people like Gerhard, and meet the same fate. I see that happen a lot on other development and support mail lists. This list isn't about teaching people list etiquette, and I believe there is some amount assumption made that anyone here has some familiarity and experience with mail list etiquette, and therefore, should act accordingly. I agree with sime and Jaza in that Gerhard's response was much more tame than it could have been. It did stop me from potentially replying to a thread that would eventually meet the same fate of it's predecessors, as was his intention. -- Jason Flatt http://www.oadaeh.net/ Father of Six: http://www.flattfamily.com/ (Joseph, 13; Cramer, 11; Travis, 9; Angela; Harry, 5; and William, 12:04 am, 12-29-2005) Linux User: http://www.kubuntu.org/ Drupal Fanatic: http://drupal.org/
Hi Raven, On 2/1/07, Raven Brooks <ravenbrooks@gmail.com> wrote:
Gerhard Killesreiter wrote:
What do you want? I even wrote "please". (Which was the part which I really didn't mean, if you want to know.) Sorry, but if he can't operate google, then he's on the wrong mailing list.
Well for starters it might be a nice general rule to just not send anything if you are only going to write something that is not only unproductive but also rude and condescending.
FYI, I have noticed that Gerhard's manners and tolerance for newbies has actually increased significantly in the past year or so. He used to be much more rude. If you look at the archives from about 2 years ago, you'll see what I mean (he annoyed me too, when I first joined the devel list). You should be praising him for making an active effort to be nicer to other people on the list, rather than criticising him. =) Cheers, Jaza.
Raven Brooks wrote:
Gerhard Killesreiter wrote:
You are probably wrong there.
My apologies, I gave you the benefit of the doubt - won't happen again.
Raven; I understand completely where you're coming from; this line of conversation with Gerhard has only one result and it is unfavorable to almost everyone. The best thing to do is mentally put Gerhard into a group of people who is very blunt and to the point and lacks a certain charisma when dealing with new devs; then go about your business anyhow. Not that this is necessarily easy, but Gerhard will be Gerhard. As Kieran has occasionally called him, he's the big angry scary German, and he's our local ogre guy. But he also does a lot for the community and is well respected, even if he is abrasive. Try not to let him get you down.
participants (7)
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Earl Miles -
Gerhard Killesreiter -
Jason Flatt -
Jeremy Epstein -
Raven Brooks -
sime -
Zohar Stolar