Cyberswat / 2007/04/24 / 02:01 PM wrote:

CMS is aimed at managing all forms of content. Content can be separated into two components, the content itself and the display of that content.

This is a good advice. I didn't think about this way. Thank you.

A good place to start working with the content is the CCK Module <snip> A good place to start working with display of that content is the Views

I kinda guessed they are the key so I did install both of them from the day one, then I noticed the Getting Start Guide noted don't touch them until you know what you are doing :-) I will reread the documents for those module with your suggestion in mind. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA <http://a-no-ne.com> <http://anonemusic.com>

On Apr 27, 2007, at 1:46 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote:

I just wanted to a little experiment with CCK by creating 2 Lists to attach year label and month label for the content for later sorting. I was hoping something like: <option selected="selected">-- Select One --</option> <option>one</option> <option>two</option> <option>three</option> But it seems I am supposed to know array() => Drupal API. I found no info on the cck documentation I printed out and the lullabot site so I googled by +"drupal 5.1" +cck +"select list" but to no avail.

There are a number of supplementary CCK modules that might help you. http://drupal.org/project/date maybe: http://drupal.org/project/dependantDropdown http://drupal.org/project/multiselect http://drupal.org/project/content_taxonomy or http://drupal.org/ project/taxonomy_fields (you could use taxonomy for your selection framework) Hope this helps. Laura

Yves Chedemois / 2007/04/27 / 04:09 PM wrote:

The optionwidgets.module that comes with the CCK bundle does just that : use a select list (or checkboxes , or radiobuttons) to edit a field instead of the regular textfield input. If you want to do just "One / Two / Three" stuff, that should be just fine - applies to 'text' and 'number' field types.

Oh, I see. My error was I did this as node reference instead of Text. I guess what I have been looking for is more 'baby-sitting' documentation that explains each options. I realized I have been guessing wrong too often :-) For example, when you click on Add Group, there is no explanation what it is for. Searching at Drupla site hasn't been easy for me either. I just need to get used to the workflow. It has been quite pleasing this list has been so helpful :-) Laura, thank you so much for your input as well. I will dive into it soon. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA <http://a-no-ne.com> <http://anonemusic.com>

Hi, In the message quoted below you talked a lot of having to make ones own code to get around in Drupal. I know i'm a newbie to all this CMS stuff and i consider myself an idiot when it comes to programming in any shape or form even though i know a tiny little bit about Javascript but not enough by far to get around, partly because i have a terrible memory for syntax, so my question is do i really need to know about programming to be able to manage Drupal? I chose to go with a CMS because as a blind person it can be quite tricky to do layout and contents that looks desent and more atractive than working in a standard html editor, but if you have to learn how to hack in order to manage this, maybe it's time to think again. /Krister J-P Stacey wrote:

Hi,

...

I realized CMS is aimed at Blog users, and I am having tough time getting quick tutorials for commercial site where no Blog or News Feeds are needed.

I realize I'm late to this party, but as a newbie myself I've just come through the procedure of turning Drupal into my CMS of choice, so being rubbish is still fresh in my mind!

Although Drupal isn't specifically aimed at blog users, out of the box I'd say it *does* look very bloggy, so the confusion is understandable. The default theme is very much "WordPress++", I'd say. But under the hood it has different ways of doing things that mean you can move fairly quickly away from that.

My suggestions would be:

* CCK, as suggested elsewhere. You can create new content types with Drupal core, although they all have the same input fields. CCK provides the ability to create custom input fields, like dates or extra metadata.

* To get a more hierarchical structure to the site, look into the category module. This puts Drupal-core taxonomies into "containers": when a content node is tagged with a taxonomy term, it then goes into that container. It's a slight hack and a bit fiddly but it seems to work well.

* Get the hang of PHPTemplate, Drupal API, Drupal Form API and the concept of theme_* and hook_* functions early on, as it'll save you extra programming later. These permit you to hook up to Drupal core in your own templates, so you (a) don't reinvent the wheel and (b) have less hassle moving to a new theme later on.

* Learn about page Regions (sidebar, header, footer etc.) and the Blocks that go into them, and the Views you can use to automatically generate content for blocks.

* For your own purposes, check out Drupal's language locale support. Make heavy use of the t() function in your own code and you should find you can translate between different languages easily.

* Similarly for your own use, look into one of the more XHTML/CSS-friendly included themes like garland. Some themes still make extensive use of <table> elements for layout.

Good luck!

J-P

I think you are on the right track using Drupal. The confusion arises as users of all kinds get very excited about all levels of using this framework, and start getting carried away in their suggestions without taking into account what your objectives are. Dries, the original creator of Drupal, spoke at the last conference about freeing the users from webmasters (you do not have to know HTML) and about how now the task is to free the users from programmers (and certainly from programming) and to free the users from designers also. While people who love to program, or work as programmers, love to program a lot with Drupal, and as graphic designers work with Drupal in their every effort to make Drupal "not look like Drupal" for their fashion-conscious clients, on the other hand, you can fashion very decent looking and above all, functional sites without any programming or even theming at all. To go beyond the blogging question, simply set the front page as a page. If your site is basically a brochure site, you can start out by following Laura Scott's excellent "Approaching a brochureware website using Drupal" (link: http://pingv.com/blog/laura/200509/approaching-a-brochureware-website-using-...), which shows you which modules to use, to set up an about page, a products or services page, contact form, etc., all without programming. Then, if you need special blocks, you can make them with a WYSIWYG editor like TinyMCE. If you need special content types you can make them without programming just as you would in Access or the like by going to Administer >> Content Types. If you need special views, you can create views, with their own special paths for page views, also without programming. These paths can be placed in menus or blocks holding links, or put on pages as links. And you can house everything in the default Garland theme, with your own color scheme, dispensing with the graphic artist, and you will have a great site. Good luck! Victor Kane http://awebfactory.com.ar On 4/25/07, Krister Ekstrom <krister@kristersplace.ws> wrote:

Hi, In the message quoted below you talked a lot of having to make ones own code to get around in Drupal. I know i'm a newbie to all this CMS stuff and i consider myself an idiot when it comes to programming in any shape or form even though i know a tiny little bit about Javascript but not enough by far to get around, partly because i have a terrible memory for syntax, so my question is do i really need to know about programming to be able to manage Drupal? I chose to go with a CMS because as a blind person it can be quite tricky to do layout and contents that looks desent and more atractive than working in a standard html editor, but if you have to learn how to hack in order to manage this, maybe it's time to think again. /Krister

J-P Stacey wrote:

...

Hi,

...

I realized CMS is aimed at Blog users, and I am having tough time getting quick tutorials for commercial site where no Blog or News Feeds are needed.

I realize I'm late to this party, but as a newbie myself I've just come through the procedure of turning Drupal into my CMS of choice, so being rubbish is still fresh in my mind!

Although Drupal isn't specifically aimed at blog users, out of the box I'd say it *does* look very bloggy, so the confusion is understandable. The default theme is very much "WordPress++", I'd say. But under the hood it has different ways of doing things that mean you can move fairly quickly away from that.

My suggestions would be:

* CCK, as suggested elsewhere. You can create new content types with Drupal core, although they all have the same input fields. CCK provides the ability to create custom input fields, like dates or extra metadata.

* To get a more hierarchical structure to the site, look into the category module. This puts Drupal-core taxonomies into "containers": when a content node is tagged with a taxonomy term, it then goes into that container. It's a slight hack and a bit fiddly but it seems to work well.

* Get the hang of PHPTemplate, Drupal API, Drupal Form API and the concept of theme_* and hook_* functions early on, as it'll save you extra programming later. These permit you to hook up to Drupal core in your own templates, so you (a) don't reinvent the wheel and (b) have less hassle moving to a new theme later on.

* Learn about page Regions (sidebar, header, footer etc.) and the Blocks that go into them, and the Views you can use to automatically generate content for blocks.

* For your own purposes, check out Drupal's language locale support. Make heavy use of the t() function in your own code and you should find you can translate between different languages easily.

* Similarly for your own use, look into one of the more XHTML/CSS-friendly included themes like garland. Some themes still make extensive use of <table> elements for layout.

Good luck!

J-P -- [ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]

Thanks, this sounds very exciting indeed. One more newbie question, is there a dummies guide to views, nodes and blocks? I tried to search for blocks, but couldn't find any getting started with blocks thingy tutorial, but i'm sure there are. Thanks /Krister Victor Kane wrote:

I think you are on the right track using Drupal.

The confusion arises as users of all kinds get very excited about all levels of using this framework, and start getting carried away in their suggestions without taking into account what your objectives are.

Dries, the original creator of Drupal, spoke at the last conference about freeing the users from webmasters (you do not have to know HTML) and about how now the task is to free the users from programmers (and certainly from programming) and to free the users from designers also.

While people who love to program, or work as programmers, love to program a lot with Drupal, and as graphic designers work with Drupal in their every effort to make Drupal "not look like Drupal" for their fashion-conscious clients, on the other hand, you can fashion very decent looking and above all, functional sites without any programming or even theming at all.

To go beyond the blogging question, simply set the front page as a page. If your site is basically a brochure site, you can start out by following Laura Scott's excellent "Approaching a brochureware website using Drupal" (link: http://pingv.com/blog/laura/200509/approaching-a-brochureware-website-using-... ), which shows you which modules to use, to set up an about page, a products or services page, contact form, etc., all without programming.

Then, if you need special blocks, you can make them with a WYSIWYG editor like TinyMCE.

If you need special content types you can make them without programming just as you would in Access or the like by going to Administer >> Content Types.

If you need special views, you can create views, with their own special paths for page views, also without programming. These paths can be placed in menus or blocks holding links, or put on pages as links.

And you can house everything in the default Garland theme, with your own color scheme, dispensing with the graphic artist, and you will have a great site.

Good luck!

Victor Kane http://awebfactory.com.ar

On 4/25/07, *Krister Ekstrom* <krister@kristersplace.ws <mailto:krister@kristersplace.ws>> wrote:

Hi, In the message quoted below you talked a lot of having to make ones own code to get around in Drupal. I know i'm a newbie to all this CMS stuff and i consider myself an idiot when it comes to programming in any shape or form even though i know a tiny little bit about Javascript but not enough by far to get around, partly because i have a terrible memory for syntax, so my question is do i really need to know about programming to be able to manage Drupal? I chose to go with a CMS because as a blind person it can be quite tricky to do layout and contents that looks desent and more atractive than working in a standard html editor, but if you have to learn how to hack in order to manage this, maybe it's time to think again. /Krister

J-P Stacey wrote: > Hi, > > > I realized CMS is aimed at Blog users, and I am having tough time >> getting quick tutorials for commercial site where no Blog or News Feeds >> are needed. > > I realize I'm late to this party, but as a newbie myself I've just come > through the procedure of turning Drupal into my CMS of choice, so being > rubbish is still fresh in my mind! > > Although Drupal isn't specifically aimed at blog users, out of the box I'd > say it *does* look very bloggy, so the confusion is understandable. The > default theme is very much "WordPress++", I'd say. But under the hood it has > different ways of doing things that mean you can move fairly quickly away > from that. > > My suggestions would be: > > * CCK, as suggested elsewhere. You can create new content types with Drupal > core, although they all have the same input fields. CCK provides the ability > to create custom input fields, like dates or extra metadata. > > * To get a more hierarchical structure to the site, look into the category > module. This puts Drupal-core taxonomies into "containers": when a content > node is tagged with a taxonomy term, it then goes into that container. It's > a slight hack and a bit fiddly but it seems to work well. > > * Get the hang of PHPTemplate, Drupal API, Drupal Form API and the concept > of theme_* and hook_* functions early on, as it'll save you extra > programming later. These permit you to hook up to Drupal core in your own > templates, so you (a) don't reinvent the wheel and (b) have less hassle > moving to a new theme later on. > > * Learn about page Regions (sidebar, header, footer etc.) and the Blocks > that go into them, and the Views you can use to automatically generate > content for blocks. > > * For your own purposes, check out Drupal's language locale support. Make > heavy use of the t() function in your own code and you should find you can > translate between different languages easily. > > * Similarly for your own use, look into one of the more XHTML/CSS-friendly > included themes like garland. Some themes still make extensive use of > <table> elements for layout. > > Good luck! > > J-P -- [ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]

You are right, Earnie, but we really mustn't forget to make it clear that there are tons of customizable features in Drupal where no programming is necessary at all. And you can learn it all in the Drupal built-in help and in the drupal.org handbooks. On 4/25/07, Earnie Boyd <earnie@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:

Quoting Krister Ekstrom <krister@kristersplace.ws>:

...

Hi, In the message quoted below you talked a lot of having to make ones own code to get around in Drupal. I know i'm a newbie to all this CMS stuff and i consider myself an idiot when it comes to programming in any shape or form even though i know a tiny little bit about Javascript but not enough by far to get around, partly because i have a terrible memory for syntax, so my question is do i really need to know about programming to be able to manage Drupal? I chose to go with a CMS because as a blind person it can be quite tricky to do layout and contents that looks desent and more atractive than working in a standard html editor, but if you have to learn how to hack in order to manage this, maybe it's time to think again. /Krister

The programming parts would have to do with customizing beyond what is already available. If you don't want the default available then you need to be able to program around it or ask someone else to do it.

Earnie -- http://for-my-kids.com -- [ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]

At least in Drupal 5, I have to disagree. Most of the sites I've done recently, professionally, are 95% existing modules. Once you learn how to really leverage CCK, Views, and other "first tier" modules, you can usually get 80% of what you want. Another 10% you can get from picking the right additional modules to install and knowing how to configure them. The last 10%, though, is making the site look like its "yours" rather than Drupal. That's the hard part, and that part is where most of the code we've written goes. That's because: 1) Theming requires complex logic. 2) Complex logic requires a language capable of expressing it. 3) PHP is a language capable of expressing complex logic, and it's the one Drupal uses. A lot of that is boilerplate code that you can copy and paste and sometimes modify, and in fact the theme system is built for that. But you need to have some idea of how PHP works. You don't need to be a first-rate programmer, but to do anything that doesn't look canned (either one of the default Drupal themes or someone else's general purpose Drupal theme) you do need to be able to tweak some code here and there at the theme layer. And I challenge any other CMS to offer infinite flexibility layout without involving PHP. :-) At least these days, though, the thinking I'm seeing is "it costs you 5 minutes to create a node type with CCK and add some fields to it". Throw Views at it, and you have any listing of nodes you want, anywhere you want. You just need to know how to configure it, which is confusing until you realize what it's doing, then it's easy. :-) Making the node look like something other than the default? Then you need to understand how the theme layer works and know at least enough PHP that you don't panic as soon as you see a dollar sign. --Larry Garfield On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:53:12 +0200, Bèr Kessels <ber@webschuur.com> wrote:

Op woensdag 25 april 2007, schreef Victor Kane:

...

...

The programming parts would have to do with customizing beyond what is already available. If you don't want the default available then you need to be able to program around it or ask someone else to do it.

In any case, Drupal is not as configuration-options rich as e.g. Joomla! is. Drupal assumes you a) change stuff by loading/unloading modules b) use some basic PHP skills, often also a requirement for a theme. c) use advanced modules (cck, views, flexinode, actions, workflows) which come with loats of configuration to do that without programming.

However, the basic Drupal though has been (and may still be) that 'it costs you 15 minutes to build a new node type module'. Its like that: no need to

get all the overhead and fuss of CCK, views, and so forth when all you need is a new DB table, and 400 lines of PHP to achieve the same.

You may be able to get really far without a line of PHP. But then you either need a simple site (re: Drupal its not as configuration-rich as other CMSes), or lots of skills to learn about the complex concepts of CCK, views, actions, workflows and so forth. (re: steep learnnig curve)

Bèr

On Wednesday 25 April 2007 10:53 am, Bèr Kessels wrote:

This is merely a warning, not a kick at Drupal or at the Drupal way. Its just that I have been there, done that many times. And more and more often find myself ignoring flexinode, cck and views alltogether, simplly because of the fact that in order to get that last 10%, I kill the only pro of these modules: online configuration.

Bèr

Again, I disagree. Yes, once you start manually placing individual fields in a template file, you have to update it every time you add a new field. 1) That's why you do your node setup and configuration first, then your theming. 2) Even with that requirement, CCK/Views saves you all the database coding time. I'd rather spend 10 minutes setting up a node in CCK and have 50 minutes left over for theming it than spend 50 minutes setting up a node in a custom module and have 10 minutes left over to theme it. I trust CCK's code to not suck a lot more than my quick'n'sloppy hands. :-) It also means that when you do add a field later, you still have no database or validation stuff to deal with. All you have to do is add a new field through the UI and add another print statement to the template. You never even see SQL or a validation routine. -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson

J-P Stacey / 2007/04/25 / 04:46 AM wrote:

* Get the hang of PHPTemplate, Drupal API, Drupal Form API and the concept of theme_* and hook_* functions early on, as it'll save you extra programming later.

Yes, I have noticed they aren't straightforward as Joomla is. Out of the box, I wanted to pseudo CSS hack on content area but I just couldn't figure out which element I am looking for, and was unable to find documentation for Garland CSS. I am just an weekend coder, and no pro, but hope to learn it soon :-) Nevertheless, all of your suggestions were very helpful. I am about to dive into CCK and Views documentations, only to realize there is no easy way to print them onto duplex printer. On this regard, Joomla was easier. Just download the entire topic to print out. Because of my minor medical condition, I can't read documentation on screen. Is there any better way of printing the entire topic, say CCK, as one document so duplex printer will save trees instead of printing off browser? P.S. My other concern is that Drupal.org is quite slow to me. Just searching for CCK documentation took 3 minutes, click on the link to get to the node is another 2-3 minutes. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA <http://a-no-ne.com> <http://anonemusic.com>

On 25.Apr.2007, at 09:30, A-NO-NE Music wrote:

Yes, I have noticed they aren't straightforward as Joomla is. Out of the box, I wanted to pseudo CSS hack on content area but I just couldn't figure out which element I am looking for, and was unable to find documentation for Garland CSS. I am just an weekend coder, and no pro, but hope to learn it soon :-)

I've learned to code PHPTemplate themes for Drupal by trial and error. I was one of the "super-users" here who suggested module developers move away from hard coding CSS into their modules or create custom classes for them. The difference 2 years can make! I am now doing a major theme overhaul of all my sites and I can't tell you how much I am enjoying it --yet, I've got to admit most of the joy comes from being able to read the CSS tags through Firefox thanks to the "Web Developer" extension. Without it, I would have "rended more shirts" and "gnashed all my teeth" trying to keep track of all the CSS that is added to Drupal via modules :) Whatever you do, just get thet web dev extension for Firefox. I can't tell you how it will improve the quality of your drupal designing life ;) / liza Liza Sabater, Publisher www.culturekitchen.com www.dailygotham.com MOB - 646.552.7365 AIM - cultkitdiva SKYPE - lizasabater

On 26/04/07, blogdiva@culturekitchen.com <blogdiva@culturekitchen.com> wrote:

...

Whatever you do, just get thet web dev extension for Firefox. I can't tell you how it will improve the quality of your drupal designing life ;)

If you liked the web developer extension, you'll love Firebug.

Howdy, for Mac users another gem is CSSedit by MacRabbit ( http:// www.macrabbit.com/cssedit ) Fresh 2.5 version has a beautiful way to validate style sheets with W3C standards, and smexy features it always had such as Milestones, Live Preview and Xray. If you are a PC web designer, that's a very god reason to buy a Mac ;) cheers, Marco