[consulting] consulting Digest, Vol 40, Issue 5
Michael Barton
bartonfreelance at gmail.com
Wed May 6 02:40:51 UTC 2009
Either way, I'm willing to build you (as long as you invest) a pretty cool
Drupal site.
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 4:51 PM, <consulting-request at drupal.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: oDesk (Victor Kane)
> 2. Re: oDesk (Brian Vuyk)
> 3. Re: oDesk (Sam Cohen)
> 4. Re: oDesk (Brian Vuyk)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 17:20:07 -0300
> From: Victor Kane <victorkane at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [consulting] oDesk
> To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting
> providers" <consulting at drupal.org>
> Message-ID:
> <ff176450905051320h72c01137u6656f91f0a76f051 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I live in Buenos Aires.
>
> As someone living in a "third-world" country (similar to g-d forsaken Los
> Angeles, for example), I doubt replacing true efficacy, based on as much
> trust and cooperation as possible
> (possibly fostered by an agile approach to development which doesn't put
> the boss, the client and the worker into separate cubicles, but has them
> all
> working together in the same
> (could be virtual) room )
> )
> with whips (are you working?) will improve our lot a lot.
>
> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Sam Cohen <sam at samcohen.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Victor Kane <victorkane at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> It's the same thing, and if it isn't, the aim is to make it the same
> >> thing.
> >>
> >> The aim is to drive down wages and worsen working conditions. The aim is
> >> to make people afraid of being able to take a break, or answer a friends
> >> ping on messenger.
> >
> >
> > Whose aim are you talking about?
> >
> > The aim of the person hiring someone is to make sure that person is
> working
> > when they say they are ...and that they are not -- while they are being
> > paid -- writing emails to discussion forums about the merits of being
> > monitored by Odesk :)
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Proving to the boss with a whip you're on the go, and if you take a
> break
> >> you may not get paid, is sweatshop conditions.
> >
> >
> > In traditional work environments the "boss" was able to monitor the
> worker
> > because the worker was on the premises. If the worker didn't show up for
> > work they weren't paid or they were fired.
> >
> > In a virtual environment there needs to be someway to monitor employers.
> >
> > I don't see any whips here.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> No disservice done.
> >>
> >> No-one voluntarily works in a sweatshop either. It's because they may
> not
> >> have work. Citing the "freedom" to accept or not these conditions is
> >> tantamount to a "freedom to work" position.
> >>
> >> No-one has that freedom if they don't have work. There are tons of
> people
> >> in the IT industry without work. These sweatshop conditions must never
> be
> >> allowed to become "acceptable".
> >>
> >
> >
> > But we are not talking about sweatshop conditions. We're talking about
> > holding people accountable.
> >
> > If anything the conditions of Odesk workers are incredibly liberating for
> > those accepting work in these countries. These folks are their own boss,
> > can negotiate their own terms, and get rewarded according to their
> abilities
> > and willingness to work hard. There's no master slave relationship.
> They
> > are on equal terms with those who hire them. (Just ask them what they
> think)
> >
> > Monitoring their computer is no different than the way a meter would
> > monitor a taxi driver who takes you somewhere -- or would you just let
> the
> > taxi driver charge you whatever he wants when you get to your
> destination.
> >
> > I think sites like ODesk create great opportunities for people in third
> > world countries to improve their condition and live a better life, more
> than
> > any amount of chairty and foreign aid could ever do.
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Victor
> >>
> >> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Sam Cohen <sam at samcohen.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The attempt by you of posting here in order to normalize and pass off
> as
> >>>> perfectly acceptable a power "master"/"slave" relationship between
> those
> >>>> selling and purchasing labor power needs to be denounced, as several
> here on
> >>>> this thread already have.
> >>>>
> >>>> I believe personally that it is brazen of you to defend sweat shop
> >>>> conditions, where you as a purchaser of labor power get to pry into
> the
> >>>> private screen of someone selling their labor power to you!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Who said anything about sweatshop conditions? I think its unfair of
> you
> >>> to accuse Matt of that.
> >>>
> >>> He's simply trying to make sure that the folks he hires are working.
> >>> Every employer in the world does that, and in remote work environments,
> it's
> >>> particularly important.
> >>>
> >>> As free individuals they can chose not to accept that type of
> >>> monitoring.
> >>>
> >>> I wouldn't work under those conditions right now, because I have plenty
> >>> of work.
> >>>
> >>> But if I really needed the work and the condition was that I would be
> >>> monitored, I would take it.
> >>>
> >>> I hardly see that as slavery -- it's just being held accountable.
> >>>
> >>> There is an enormous amount of real suffering in the world by those
> who
> >>> work in slavery or under sweatshop conditions. You do them a
> disservice by
> >>> equating their condition with an Odesk worker having their computer
> >>> monitored.
> >>>
> >>> Sam
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> consulting mailing list
> >>> consulting at drupal.org
> >>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> consulting mailing list
> >> consulting at drupal.org
> >> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > consulting mailing list
> > consulting at drupal.org
> > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 16:20:44 -0400
> From: Brian Vuyk <brian at brianvuyk.com>
> Subject: Re: [consulting] oDesk
> To: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers
> <consulting at drupal.org>
> Message-ID: <4A009F9C.9040400 at brianvuyk.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> On 05/05/2009 04:13 PM, Sam Cohen wrote:
> > In traditional work environments the "boss" was able to monitor the
> > worker because the worker was on the premises. If the worker didn't
> > show up for work they weren't paid or they were fired.
> >
> > In a virtual environment there needs to be someway to monitor employers.
>
> This is the problem.
>
> My client is not my boss. I am not my client's employee.
>
> --
> *Brian Vuyk*
> Web Design & Development
> T: 613-534-2916
> Skype: brianvuyk
> brian at brianvuyk.com | http://www.brianvuyk.com
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 16:31:04 -0400
> From: Sam Cohen <sam at samcohen.com>
> Subject: Re: [consulting] oDesk
> To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting
> providers" <consulting at drupal.org>
> Message-ID:
> <a0b404fa0905051331u7c4f3724yb7b1ff67b81f780a at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Brian Vuyk <brian at brianvuyk.com> wrote:
>
> > On 05/05/2009 04:13 PM, Sam Cohen wrote:
> >
> > In traditional work environments the "boss" was able to monitor the
> worker
> > because the worker was on the premises. If the worker didn't show up for
> > work they weren't paid or they were fired.
> >
> > In a virtual environment there needs to be someway to monitor employers.
> >
> >
> > This is the problem.
> >
> > My client is not my boss. I am not my client's employee.
> >
> This is a semantic difference -- if you are buying a service, if you are
> hiring a lawyer, accountant, contractor, whatever, it's an exchange. I'm
> giving money in return for a service received. Just as the person being
> paid has a right to ensure they receive their money, the person paying for
> the service, has a right to ensure they are receiving what they are paying
> for.
>
> If it's based on a certain outcome then this isn't an issue. But if I'm
> hiring someone to do something hourly and they are at a remote location,
> then I need some way to know they are working.
>
> This doesn't make them inferior to me. Just as my putting the money in
> escrow makes me inferior to them.
>
> Sam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > --
> > *Brian Vuyk*
> > Web Design & Development
> > T: 613-534-2916
> > Skype: brianvuyk
> > brian at brianvuyk.com | http://www.brianvuyk.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > consulting mailing list
> > consulting at drupal.org
> > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 16:50:38 -0400
> From: Brian Vuyk <brian at brianvuyk.com>
> Subject: Re: [consulting] oDesk
> To: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers
> <consulting at drupal.org>
> Message-ID: <4A00A69E.3060601 at brianvuyk.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Would you sit in your lawyer's office to make sure he is working?
>
> It's not just a semantic difference.
>
> Brian
>
> On 05/05/2009 04:31 PM, Sam Cohen wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Brian Vuyk <brian at brianvuyk.com
> > <mailto:brian at brianvuyk.com>> wrote:
> >
> > On 05/05/2009 04:13 PM, Sam Cohen wrote:
> >> In traditional work environments the "boss" was able to monitor
> >> the worker because the worker was on the premises. If the worker
> >> didn't show up for work they weren't paid or they were fired.
> >>
> >> In a virtual environment there needs to be someway to monitor
> >> employers.
> >
> > This is the problem.
> >
> > My client is not my boss. I am not my client's employee.
> >
> > This is a semantic difference -- if you are buying a service, if you
> > are hiring a lawyer, accountant, contractor, whatever, it's an
> > exchange. I'm giving money in return for a service received. Just as
> > the person being paid has a right to ensure they receive their money,
> > the person paying for the service, has a right to ensure they are
> > receiving what they are paying for.
> >
> > If it's based on a certain outcome then this isn't an issue. But if
> > I'm hiring someone to do something hourly and they are at a remote
> > location, then I need some way to know they are working.
> >
> > This doesn't make them inferior to me. Just as my putting the money
> > in escrow makes me inferior to them.
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Brian Vuyk*
> > Web Design & Development
> > T: 613-534-2916
> > Skype: brianvuyk
> > brian at brianvuyk.com <mailto:brian at brianvuyk.com> |
> > http://www.brianvuyk.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > consulting mailing list
> > consulting at drupal.org <mailto:consulting at drupal.org>
> > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > consulting mailing list
> > consulting at drupal.org
> > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
> >
>
>
> --
> *Brian Vuyk*
> Web Design & Development
> T: 613-534-2916
> Skype: brianvuyk
> brian at brianvuyk.com | http://www.brianvuyk.com
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>
> End of consulting Digest, Vol 40, Issue 5
> *****************************************
>
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