[consulting] American Labour Laws & Future of Labour

Sat Aug 21 19:14:00 UTC 2010

Maybe there they can do what they want, here, you quit and get another 
job if you don't like it. Or you all quit and get another job, and put 
them out of business.

If I start my own business, I can offer what I'd like, and reap great 
employees and success or a crappy company as a result. I don't need 
people coming in and telling me how I need to run it.

If you don't like the business...leave. If you own the business and 
don't like want a union... close the business... not much organizing to 
be done if you're unemployed.

On 08/21/2010 03:14 PM, Victor Kane wrote:
> Not to repeat these things over and over again:
>
> The basic question is, what is the relationship of forces (via 
> strikes, direct action, etc) between the working class and the bosses.
>
> If we are all isolated, they can do what they like. Which is dire, as 
> things get worse due to the crisis.
>
> If we fight together, in a union or other forms of organization, they 
> can't do as they like.
>
> If you buy the myth that it's impossible to organize, we're all screwed.
>
> If we organize, we win.
>
> But we can only organize if we fight to change society, that's the 
> only way to organize without creating yet another bureaucracy.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Jeff Greenberg <jeff at ayendesigns.com 
> <mailto:jeff at ayendesigns.com>> wrote:
>
>     I don't think the thoughts represent anything new here. The extreme
>     right feel that people should be free to choose (or not)
>     everything. The
>     extreme left feel that the government should provide everything or
>     otherwise control it. Most people fall in between.
>
>     This country might seem to be one of corporations, but it's
>     primarily of
>     small businesses. Every mandate costs them money. Every mandate is
>     paid
>     for by taxing them, which causes some to close or raise prices, which
>     costs everyone else more.
>
>     It seems to me that successful companies can be measured by
>     innovation,
>     discovery, and ongoing success. To achieve that, they have to attract
>     the best and brightest talent, and have a market. To do that they have
>     to invest in their people and research and development. To do
>     that, they
>     need profit, rather than have it redirected by the government. How
>     many
>     of these other societies that burden businesses so heavily lead the
>     world in technological and scientific discovery? I don't recall Canada
>     being at the top of the list.
>
>     On 08/21/2010 02:53 PM, Sami Khan wrote:
>     >
>     >> I'm not sure as to why this is much of a surprise.
>     >>
>     > Because many other people in other countries (like mine) get a
>     better
>     > deal... and their societies work just fine. Society is a massive
>     game and
>     > we control all the rules. It is better if the rules are
>     utilitarian meaning
>     > the greatest good for the greatest number of people rather than
>     favouring
>     > the few at the cost of the many so that they may make even more
>     wealth. I
>     > would find it acceptable to take every penny they have say over
>     a million
>     > dollars and redistribute it to entrepreneurs with viable
>     business ideas.
>     >
>     >
>     >> There are certain
>     >> protections, and the rest is a consumer market like anything
>     else. In
>     >> other words, if you don't like the wage, if you don't like the
>     benefits
>     >> package, if you don't like the job title or the wallpaper ...
>     don't take
>     >>
>     >
>     >> the job.
>     >>
>     > The question then is not whether or not protection should exist,
>     but which
>     > rules should exist so that they create the greatest amount of
>     good for all
>     > who are involved... Not just the shareholders but the
>     stakeholders too.
>     > That does not mean management goes away, or that disparity is
>     eliminated...
>     > but that it is reduced to the greatest level possible while
>     keeping the
>     > system function. Thereby limiting the leisure class
>     significantly rather
>     > than magnifying its power.
>     >
>     >
>     >> On the other hand, there are protections here that are NOT afforded
>     >> elsewhere. If you are asked in an interview about your marital
>     status,
>     >> location of residence, past times, religious participation,
>     etc., and do
>     >>
>     >
>     >> not receive the job, you can sue (which is why companies in the
>     know
>     >> train their staff not to ask such questions). I know people in
>     other
>     >> countries (especially in Asia) who have been asked in an
>     interview why
>     >> they are not married, what their parents do for a living, when
>     they met
>     >> their boyfriend and how, and if they had sex outside of marriage.
>     >>
>     > I am sure there are countries like this, India being a prime
>     example of
>     > where some of these questions might be asked. I consider such
>     environment
>     > failures and I think only because of overpopulation they can get
>     away with
>     > this sort of shit; too much competition. I don't think we want
>     to emulate
>     > failure, I think we want to emulate success.
>     >
>     > I don't particularly care about shareholders.
>     >
>     > If every citizen thought like a business, which is the purview of
>     > economists, then I think every citizen should be strategic in
>     maximizing
>     > their personal utility... They should all be taught to behave
>     rationally
>     > and treat their lives like a business. That means attempting to
>     maximize
>     > personal profit at the cost of everyone and looking out only for
>     their
>     > shareholders: i.e. themselves... Which would then in turn lead most
>     > businesses to fail and society to fall into pieces because of
>     the zero sum
>     > game which would be created. It is good for corporations and
>     societies that
>     > employees for the most part don't behave this way. It would
>     therefore be
>     > good for employees and society if corporations did not behave
>     this way
>     > either.
>     >
>     >
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