[consulting] American Labour Laws & Future of Labour

Sat Aug 21 19:58:44 UTC 2010

Here in Argentina, there's plenty of organizing going on among the
unemployed.

The myth that it's an individual question: if you don't like it quit,
survival of the fittest, etc... that's being rejected by workers all over
the world... we have to organize to prevent that being imposed on us.

Employers can't do what they want. But workers need to organize to make that
stick.

On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Jeff Greenberg <jeff at ayendesigns.com>wrote:

>  Maybe there they can do what they want, here, you quit and get another job
> if you don't like it. Or you all quit and get another job, and put them out
> of business.
>
> If I start my own business, I can offer what I'd like, and reap great
> employees and success or a crappy company as a result. I don't need people
> coming in and telling me how I need to run it.
>
> If you don't like the business...leave. If you own the business and don't
> like want a union... close the business... not much organizing to be done if
> you're unemployed.
>
>
> On 08/21/2010 03:14 PM, Victor Kane wrote:
>
> Not to repeat these things over and over again:
>
>  The basic question is, what is the relationship of forces (via strikes,
> direct action, etc) between the working class and the bosses.
>
>  If we are all isolated, they can do what they like. Which is dire, as
> things get worse due to the crisis.
>
>  If we fight together, in a union or other forms of organization, they
> can't do as they like.
>
>  If you buy the myth that it's impossible to organize, we're all screwed.
>
>  If we organize, we win.
>
>  But we can only organize if we fight to change society, that's the only
> way to organize without creating yet another bureaucracy.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Jeff Greenberg <jeff at ayendesigns.com>wrote:
>
>> I don't think the thoughts represent anything new here. The extreme
>> right feel that people should be free to choose (or not) everything. The
>> extreme left feel that the government should provide everything or
>> otherwise control it. Most people fall in between.
>>
>> This country might seem to be one of corporations, but it's primarily of
>> small businesses. Every mandate costs them money. Every mandate is paid
>> for by taxing them, which causes some to close or raise prices, which
>> costs everyone else more.
>>
>> It seems to me that successful companies can be measured by innovation,
>> discovery, and ongoing success. To achieve that, they have to attract
>> the best and brightest talent, and have a market. To do that they have
>> to invest in their people and research and development. To do that, they
>> need profit, rather than have it redirected by the government. How many
>> of these other societies that burden businesses so heavily lead the
>> world in technological and scientific discovery? I don't recall Canada
>> being at the top of the list.
>>
>> On 08/21/2010 02:53 PM, Sami Khan wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'm not sure as to why this is much of a surprise.
>> >>
>> > Because many other people in other countries (like mine) get a better
>> > deal... and their societies work just fine. Society is a massive game
>> and
>> > we control all the rules. It is better if the rules are utilitarian
>> meaning
>> > the greatest good for the greatest number of people rather than
>> favouring
>> > the few at the cost of the many so that they may make even more wealth.
>> I
>> > would find it acceptable to take every penny they have say over a
>> million
>> > dollars and redistribute it to entrepreneurs with viable business ideas.
>> >
>> >
>> >> There are certain
>> >> protections, and the rest is a consumer market like anything else. In
>> >> other words, if you don't like the wage, if you don't like the benefits
>> >> package, if you don't like the job title or the wallpaper ... don't
>> take
>> >>
>> >
>> >> the job.
>> >>
>> > The question then is not whether or not protection should exist, but
>> which
>> > rules should exist so that they create the greatest amount of good for
>> all
>> > who are involved... Not just the shareholders but the stakeholders too.
>> > That does not mean management goes away, or that disparity is
>> eliminated...
>> > but that it is reduced to the greatest level possible while keeping the
>> > system function. Thereby limiting the leisure class significantly rather
>> > than magnifying its power.
>> >
>> >
>> >> On the other hand, there are protections here that are NOT afforded
>> >> elsewhere. If you are asked in an interview about your marital status,
>> >> location of residence, past times, religious participation, etc., and
>> do
>> >>
>> >
>> >> not receive the job, you can sue (which is why companies in the know
>> >> train their staff not to ask such questions). I know people in other
>> >> countries (especially in Asia) who have been asked in an interview why
>> >> they are not married, what their parents do for a living, when they met
>> >> their boyfriend and how, and if they had sex outside of marriage.
>> >>
>> > I am sure there are countries like this, India being a prime example of
>> > where some of these questions might be asked. I consider such
>> environment
>> > failures and I think only because of overpopulation they can get away
>> with
>> > this sort of shit; too much competition. I don't think we want to
>> emulate
>> > failure, I think we want to emulate success.
>> >
>> > I don't particularly care about shareholders.
>> >
>> > If every citizen thought like a business, which is the purview of
>> > economists, then I think every citizen should be strategic in maximizing
>> > their personal utility... They should all be taught to behave rationally
>> > and treat their lives like a business. That means attempting to maximize
>> > personal profit at the cost of everyone and looking out only for their
>> > shareholders: i.e. themselves... Which would then in turn lead most
>> > businesses to fail and society to fall into pieces because of the zero
>> sum
>> > game which would be created. It is good for corporations and societies
>> that
>> > employees for the most part don't behave this way. It would therefore be
>> > good for employees and society if corporations did not behave this way
>> > either.
>> >
>> >
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