[consulting] American Labour Laws & Future of Labour
Jeff Greenberg
jeff at ayendesigns.com
Sat Aug 21 20:01:37 UTC 2010
The only myth I see is that I said it's an individual question. I did
say you could 'all quit.' I have no problem with people organizing and
deciding to leave a company en-masse, or a company deciding to say the
heck with ya, that's not how I want to run my company, and shutting. I
just have a problem with the thought that the person who started the
company somehow has a duty to provide -anything- including jobs. If I
start a business, I can hire if I want, not hire if I don't want, give
bonuses if I want, not give them if I don't want (and perhaps lose
people as a result), create products if I want, make a profit if I want.
And if people don't like it, they are free to use me or not for my
products or employment.
On 08/21/2010 03:58 PM, Victor Kane wrote:
> Here in Argentina, there's plenty of organizing going on among the
> unemployed.
>
> The myth that it's an individual question: if you don't like it quit,
> survival of the fittest, etc... that's being rejected by workers all
> over the world... we have to organize to prevent that being imposed on us.
>
> Employers can't do what they want. But workers need to organize to
> make that stick.
>
> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Jeff Greenberg <jeff at ayendesigns.com
> <mailto:jeff at ayendesigns.com>> wrote:
>
> Maybe there they can do what they want, here, you quit and get
> another job if you don't like it. Or you all quit and get another
> job, and put them out of business.
>
> If I start my own business, I can offer what I'd like, and reap
> great employees and success or a crappy company as a result. I
> don't need people coming in and telling me how I need to run it.
>
> If you don't like the business...leave. If you own the business
> and don't like want a union... close the business... not much
> organizing to be done if you're unemployed.
>
>
> On 08/21/2010 03:14 PM, Victor Kane wrote:
>> Not to repeat these things over and over again:
>>
>> The basic question is, what is the relationship of forces (via
>> strikes, direct action, etc) between the working class and the
>> bosses.
>>
>> If we are all isolated, they can do what they like. Which is
>> dire, as things get worse due to the crisis.
>>
>> If we fight together, in a union or other forms of organization,
>> they can't do as they like.
>>
>> If you buy the myth that it's impossible to organize, we're all
>> screwed.
>>
>> If we organize, we win.
>>
>> But we can only organize if we fight to change society, that's
>> the only way to organize without creating yet another bureaucracy.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Jeff Greenberg
>> <jeff at ayendesigns.com <mailto:jeff at ayendesigns.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I don't think the thoughts represent anything new here. The
>> extreme
>> right feel that people should be free to choose (or not)
>> everything. The
>> extreme left feel that the government should provide
>> everything or
>> otherwise control it. Most people fall in between.
>>
>> This country might seem to be one of corporations, but it's
>> primarily of
>> small businesses. Every mandate costs them money. Every
>> mandate is paid
>> for by taxing them, which causes some to close or raise
>> prices, which
>> costs everyone else more.
>>
>> It seems to me that successful companies can be measured by
>> innovation,
>> discovery, and ongoing success. To achieve that, they have to
>> attract
>> the best and brightest talent, and have a market. To do that
>> they have
>> to invest in their people and research and development. To do
>> that, they
>> need profit, rather than have it redirected by the
>> government. How many
>> of these other societies that burden businesses so heavily
>> lead the
>> world in technological and scientific discovery? I don't
>> recall Canada
>> being at the top of the list.
>>
>> On 08/21/2010 02:53 PM, Sami Khan wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'm not sure as to why this is much of a surprise.
>> >>
>> > Because many other people in other countries (like mine)
>> get a better
>> > deal... and their societies work just fine. Society is a
>> massive game and
>> > we control all the rules. It is better if the rules are
>> utilitarian meaning
>> > the greatest good for the greatest number of people rather
>> than favouring
>> > the few at the cost of the many so that they may make even
>> more wealth. I
>> > would find it acceptable to take every penny they have say
>> over a million
>> > dollars and redistribute it to entrepreneurs with viable
>> business ideas.
>> >
>> >
>> >> There are certain
>> >> protections, and the rest is a consumer market like
>> anything else. In
>> >> other words, if you don't like the wage, if you don't like
>> the benefits
>> >> package, if you don't like the job title or the wallpaper
>> ... don't take
>> >>
>> >
>> >> the job.
>> >>
>> > The question then is not whether or not protection should
>> exist, but which
>> > rules should exist so that they create the greatest amount
>> of good for all
>> > who are involved... Not just the shareholders but the
>> stakeholders too.
>> > That does not mean management goes away, or that disparity
>> is eliminated...
>> > but that it is reduced to the greatest level possible while
>> keeping the
>> > system function. Thereby limiting the leisure class
>> significantly rather
>> > than magnifying its power.
>> >
>> >
>> >> On the other hand, there are protections here that are NOT
>> afforded
>> >> elsewhere. If you are asked in an interview about your
>> marital status,
>> >> location of residence, past times, religious
>> participation, etc., and do
>> >>
>> >
>> >> not receive the job, you can sue (which is why companies
>> in the know
>> >> train their staff not to ask such questions). I know
>> people in other
>> >> countries (especially in Asia) who have been asked in an
>> interview why
>> >> they are not married, what their parents do for a living,
>> when they met
>> >> their boyfriend and how, and if they had sex outside of
>> marriage.
>> >>
>> > I am sure there are countries like this, India being a
>> prime example of
>> > where some of these questions might be asked. I consider
>> such environment
>> > failures and I think only because of overpopulation they
>> can get away with
>> > this sort of shit; too much competition. I don't think we
>> want to emulate
>> > failure, I think we want to emulate success.
>> >
>> > I don't particularly care about shareholders.
>> >
>> > If every citizen thought like a business, which is the
>> purview of
>> > economists, then I think every citizen should be strategic
>> in maximizing
>> > their personal utility... They should all be taught to
>> behave rationally
>> > and treat their lives like a business. That means
>> attempting to maximize
>> > personal profit at the cost of everyone and looking out
>> only for their
>> > shareholders: i.e. themselves... Which would then in turn
>> lead most
>> > businesses to fail and society to fall into pieces because
>> of the zero sum
>> > game which would be created. It is good for corporations
>> and societies that
>> > employees for the most part don't behave this way. It would
>> therefore be
>> > good for employees and society if corporations did not
>> behave this way
>> > either.
>> >
>> >
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