[consulting] American Labour Laws & Future of Labour

Jeff Greenberg jeff at ayendesigns.com
Sat Aug 21 20:01:37 UTC 2010


The only myth I see is that I said it's an individual question. I did 
say you could 'all quit.'  I have no problem with people organizing and 
deciding to leave a company en-masse, or a company deciding to say the 
heck with ya, that's not how I want to run my company, and shutting. I 
just have a problem with the thought that the person who started the 
company somehow has a duty to provide -anything- including jobs. If I 
start a business, I can hire if I want, not hire if I don't want, give 
bonuses if I want, not give them if I don't want (and perhaps lose 
people as a result), create products if I want, make a profit if I want. 
And if people don't like it, they are free to use me or not for my 
products or employment.

On 08/21/2010 03:58 PM, Victor Kane wrote:
> Here in Argentina, there's plenty of organizing going on among the 
> unemployed.
>
> The myth that it's an individual question: if you don't like it quit, 
> survival of the fittest, etc... that's being rejected by workers all 
> over the world... we have to organize to prevent that being imposed on us.
>
> Employers can't do what they want. But workers need to organize to 
> make that stick.
>
> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Jeff Greenberg <jeff at ayendesigns.com 
> <mailto:jeff at ayendesigns.com>> wrote:
>
>     Maybe there they can do what they want, here, you quit and get
>     another job if you don't like it. Or you all quit and get another
>     job, and put them out of business.
>
>     If I start my own business, I can offer what I'd like, and reap
>     great employees and success or a crappy company as a result. I
>     don't need people coming in and telling me how I need to run it.
>
>     If you don't like the business...leave. If you own the business
>     and don't like want a union... close the business... not much
>     organizing to be done if you're unemployed.
>
>
>     On 08/21/2010 03:14 PM, Victor Kane wrote:
>>     Not to repeat these things over and over again:
>>
>>     The basic question is, what is the relationship of forces (via
>>     strikes, direct action, etc) between the working class and the
>>     bosses.
>>
>>     If we are all isolated, they can do what they like. Which is
>>     dire, as things get worse due to the crisis.
>>
>>     If we fight together, in a union or other forms of organization,
>>     they can't do as they like.
>>
>>     If you buy the myth that it's impossible to organize, we're all
>>     screwed.
>>
>>     If we organize, we win.
>>
>>     But we can only organize if we fight to change society, that's
>>     the only way to organize without creating yet another bureaucracy.
>>
>>
>>
>>     On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Jeff Greenberg
>>     <jeff at ayendesigns.com <mailto:jeff at ayendesigns.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         I don't think the thoughts represent anything new here. The
>>         extreme
>>         right feel that people should be free to choose (or not)
>>         everything. The
>>         extreme left feel that the government should provide
>>         everything or
>>         otherwise control it. Most people fall in between.
>>
>>         This country might seem to be one of corporations, but it's
>>         primarily of
>>         small businesses. Every mandate costs them money. Every
>>         mandate is paid
>>         for by taxing them, which causes some to close or raise
>>         prices, which
>>         costs everyone else more.
>>
>>         It seems to me that successful companies can be measured by
>>         innovation,
>>         discovery, and ongoing success. To achieve that, they have to
>>         attract
>>         the best and brightest talent, and have a market. To do that
>>         they have
>>         to invest in their people and research and development. To do
>>         that, they
>>         need profit, rather than have it redirected by the
>>         government. How many
>>         of these other societies that burden businesses so heavily
>>         lead the
>>         world in technological and scientific discovery? I don't
>>         recall Canada
>>         being at the top of the list.
>>
>>         On 08/21/2010 02:53 PM, Sami Khan wrote:
>>         >
>>         >> I'm not sure as to why this is much of a surprise.
>>         >>
>>         > Because many other people in other countries (like mine)
>>         get a better
>>         > deal... and their societies work just fine. Society is a
>>         massive game and
>>         > we control all the rules. It is better if the rules are
>>         utilitarian meaning
>>         > the greatest good for the greatest number of people rather
>>         than favouring
>>         > the few at the cost of the many so that they may make even
>>         more wealth. I
>>         > would find it acceptable to take every penny they have say
>>         over a million
>>         > dollars and redistribute it to entrepreneurs with viable
>>         business ideas.
>>         >
>>         >
>>         >> There are certain
>>         >> protections, and the rest is a consumer market like
>>         anything else. In
>>         >> other words, if you don't like the wage, if you don't like
>>         the benefits
>>         >> package, if you don't like the job title or the wallpaper
>>         ... don't take
>>         >>
>>         >
>>         >> the job.
>>         >>
>>         > The question then is not whether or not protection should
>>         exist, but which
>>         > rules should exist so that they create the greatest amount
>>         of good for all
>>         > who are involved... Not just the shareholders but the
>>         stakeholders too.
>>         > That does not mean management goes away, or that disparity
>>         is eliminated...
>>         > but that it is reduced to the greatest level possible while
>>         keeping the
>>         > system function. Thereby limiting the leisure class
>>         significantly rather
>>         > than magnifying its power.
>>         >
>>         >
>>         >> On the other hand, there are protections here that are NOT
>>         afforded
>>         >> elsewhere. If you are asked in an interview about your
>>         marital status,
>>         >> location of residence, past times, religious
>>         participation, etc., and do
>>         >>
>>         >
>>         >> not receive the job, you can sue (which is why companies
>>         in the know
>>         >> train their staff not to ask such questions). I know
>>         people in other
>>         >> countries (especially in Asia) who have been asked in an
>>         interview why
>>         >> they are not married, what their parents do for a living,
>>         when they met
>>         >> their boyfriend and how, and if they had sex outside of
>>         marriage.
>>         >>
>>         > I am sure there are countries like this, India being a
>>         prime example of
>>         > where some of these questions might be asked. I consider
>>         such environment
>>         > failures and I think only because of overpopulation they
>>         can get away with
>>         > this sort of shit; too much competition. I don't think we
>>         want to emulate
>>         > failure, I think we want to emulate success.
>>         >
>>         > I don't particularly care about shareholders.
>>         >
>>         > If every citizen thought like a business, which is the
>>         purview of
>>         > economists, then I think every citizen should be strategic
>>         in maximizing
>>         > their personal utility... They should all be taught to
>>         behave rationally
>>         > and treat their lives like a business. That means
>>         attempting to maximize
>>         > personal profit at the cost of everyone and looking out
>>         only for their
>>         > shareholders: i.e. themselves... Which would then in turn
>>         lead most
>>         > businesses to fail and society to fall into pieces because
>>         of the zero sum
>>         > game which would be created. It is good for corporations
>>         and societies that
>>         > employees for the most part don't behave this way. It would
>>         therefore be
>>         > good for employees and society if corporations did not
>>         behave this way
>>         > either.
>>         >
>>         >
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