[consulting] consulting Digest, Vol 52, Issue 5
Matt Chapman
matt at ninjitsuweb.com
Wed May 5 19:15:27 UTC 2010
Remember that the NTEN survey targeted end-users more than developers.
Based on my experience talking to Drupal people, if you limited the
survey to Drupal developers only, I think you'd get very different
satisfaction levels.
I know Donald Lobo's opinion on this; we've had this discussion more
than once. It always comes down to, "Show me the code."
I dare say that if we could get a significant example of CiviCRM
functionality working with Drupal as the framework, and could show how
this could be integrated with Joomla and Wordpress (easy enough with
Drupal's external authentication ability), then we stand a chance of
convincing the CiviCRM core team to come on board with the project.
But they won't dedicate the resources to give it a shot, so we need to
prove it can be done first.
But to be super clear: using Drupal-as-framework to power CiviCRM does
NOT mean abandoning Joomla users; it just suggests a different sort of
integration. The packages that could be removed from CiviCRM by
leveraging Drupal APIs would easily make up for the weight of
including Drupal core in the download for Joomla users.
All the Best,
Matt Chapman
Ninjitsu Web Development
--
The contents of this message should be assumed to be Confidential, and
may not be disclosed without permission of the sender.
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Joe Murray
<joe.murray at jmaconsulting.biz> wrote:
> CiviCRM was best rated for willing to recommend or willing to highly
> recommend in the 2007 NTEN CRM survey, and in the recently published 2009
> NTEN Data Ecosystem survey it also did very well in the small and medium
> sized organizations, despite the survey design indicating that it didn't
> include CiviMail. In competition with Salesforce, Convio and Blackbaud, it
> does very well on various criteria. It still hasn't had many really big
> implementations yet, but its functionality, scalability, and software
> maturity are growing fairly well.
>
> Different open source projects have their own character. Drupal is designed
> from the ground up to be a good framework for developers, and has great
> contrib modules that are getting better at playing nice together. CiviCRM
> has had a core team driving the vast bulk of core development, and is only
> recently making a better place for user contrib. CiviCRM's architecture so
> far is oriented more towards customization to meet particular needs of a
> site than it is towards including new plug and play functionality. It's also
> wanted to be CMS independent, supporting both Joomla! and Drupal, projects
> with very different contrib philosophies.
>
> Still, the number of non-core team developers who have contributed code, and
> the amount of contributed code, continues to climb release by release.
>
> Matt's to be commended for doing the initial work integrating CCK / Views
> and CiviCRM, which Jim Taylor has picked up and extended. I get the sense
> from CiviCRM's tech lead, Donald Lobo, that he foresees deeper integration
> with key Drupal modules for workflow and other things in the future (I'm
> cc'ing him here in case he wants to comment).
>
> I also think that the CiviCRM re-architecting that is coming in 4.0 will
> have a new framework that hopefully will be easier to develop in.
>
> Joe Murray, PhD
> President, JMA Consulting
> joe.murray at jmaconsulting.biz
> skype JosephPMurray twitter JoeMurray
> 416.466.1281
>
>
> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 1:56 PM, <consulting-request at drupal.org> wrote:
>>
>> Send consulting mailing list submissions to
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>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of consulting digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: consulting Digest, Vol 52, Issue 4 (Muhammad Dewan)
>> 2. Re: CiviCRM / Drupal integration expert (Matt Chapman)
>> 3. Re: CiviCRM / Drupal integration expert (David Notik)
>> 4. Re: CiviCRM / Drupal integration expert (Sheryl)
>> 5. Re: CiviCRM / Drupal integration expert (Matt Chapman)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 17:09:25 +0500
>> From: Muhammad Dewan <hkfdewanhkf at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [consulting] consulting Digest, Vol 52, Issue 4
>> To: consulting at drupal.org
>> Message-ID:
>> <AANLkTinyUEvAhMwE6SjpycAYKWdqbuxWB_Z383WuRLUa at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> hi,
>> I am a drupal developer having three years of web development.
>> I can work in :
>> DRUPAL
>> PHP
>> CIVICRM
>> UBERCART
>> AJAX
>> JQUERY
>> HTML
>>
>> I am interested in your request.
>> Waiting your positive response.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 5:00 PM, <consulting-request at drupal.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Send consulting mailing list submissions to
>> > consulting at drupal.org
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > consulting-request at drupal.org
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > consulting-owner at drupal.org
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of consulting digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. Re: NEED: part time free lancer, on going work.
>> > (Domenic Santangelo)
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 10:18:43 -0700
>> > From: Domenic Santangelo <domenics at gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [consulting] NEED: part time free lancer, on going work.
>> > To: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers
>> > <consulting at drupal.org>
>> > Message-ID: <2243F196-EC20-48A5-971E-9EB69CEA8C77 at gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> >
>> >
>> > On Apr 30, 2010, at 9:22 PM, William Smith wrote:
>> >
>> > > Not to hijack the thread, but that seems a rather low rate for an
>> > experienced / efficient developer. Or have things changed to such a
>> > degree
>> > in Drupal World?
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Matthew Lechleider <
>> > matthew at lechleider.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > $30/hour USD.
>> > >
>> >
>> > They have not, especially for Ubercart work. For 5-10 hours a week he's
>> > not
>> > leaving himself much room if he wants to increase the workload (clients
>> > always expect rate to go down as more hours are bought).
>> >
>> > He might be able to find an outsourcer though.
>> >
>> > -D
>> >
>> > -------------- next part --------------
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > consulting mailing list
>> > consulting at drupal.org
>> > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
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>> >
>> > End of consulting Digest, Vol 52, Issue 4
>> > *****************************************
>> >
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 10:24:06 -0700
>> From: Matt Chapman <matt at ninjitsuweb.com>
>> Subject: Re: [consulting] CiviCRM / Drupal integration expert
>> To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting
>> providers" <consulting at drupal.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <g2y80badb991005051024v1cf5a89h940ce42f81d6dd5 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Sam Cohen <sam at samcohen.com> wrote:
>>
>> > No problem at all. It's always helpful to learn what other people are
>> > charging and how they are marketing themselves :)
>>
>> So, now that I've accidentally shown my underwear in public anyway, I
>> think this is a conversation worth having.
>>
>> Do other share my experience that the CiviCRM market is actually
>> vastly different than the Drupal market? I observe several factors
>> that make me think so:
>>
>> 1.) I've seen very competent Drupal developers royally screw up
>> CiviCRM work, due to ignorance of the vast difference between the two
>> systems.
>>
>> 2.) I find it very difficult to locate competent CiviCRM developers
>> who are eager to work on CiviCRM. (Most of us who do CiviCRM work
>> don't enjoy working with the software.)
>>
>> 3.) There is relatively little overlap in the learning curve for
>> Drupal as compared to the learning curve for CiviCRM. I.e., once
>> you've learned Theming, Drupal DB abstraction, Forms API, Views,
>> Drupal permissions, and i18n, then you have to learn Smarty, PEAR:DB,
>> QuickForm, Profiles, CiviCRM ACLs, and a completely different i18n
>> system. And OOP PHP. CiviCRM really doubles the required knowledge
>> base for a successful project.
>>
>> 4.) With few exceptions, I have been successful in charging as much as
>> double my 'Drupal rate' for CiviCRM work, or generally increasing my
>> catch-all rate when a project involves CiviCRM.
>>
>> And yet, despite #3 and possibly because of #4, I see more and more
>> people interested in CiviCRM at each DrupalCon or Drupal event where
>> the topic comes up.
>>
>> Are others seeing the same things, or am I crazy? Is there anybody
>> around who's got the management skills to help redirect the momentum
>> among CiviCRM new-comers into a project to re-create CiviCRM
>> functionality using Drupal 7 as the framework? That's a project I
>> could get excited about, but I'm far too busy to try to lead such an
>> effort right now.
>>
>> All the Best,
>>
>> Matt Chapman
>> Ninjitsu Web Development
>>
>> --
>> The contents of this message should be assumed to be Confidential, and
>> may not be disclosed without permission of the sender.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > I have a related civicrm question as I have had a couple of clients
>> > request
>> > it recently.? While I'm very impressed with the software and how far it
>> > has
>> > come, I'm amazed at how slow it is.? One client has a pretty powerful
>> > VPS in
>> > staging.? Without civicrm the site zips along.? As soon as civicrm is
>> > enabled page loads feel like it's on a dial up connection.? I find it
>> > agonizing to work with, especially after three cups of coffee.? Any
>> > insight
>> > on why it's so slow and are there any tricks to improve speed.
>> >
>> > Sam
>> >
>> > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Matt Chapman <matt at ninjitsuweb.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> D$#%, sorry for spamming everybody.
>> >>
>> >> Can we please configure this list to set the sender as the reply-to
>> >> address? I don't have this problem on any o fmy other mailing lists...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> All the Best,
>> >>
>> >> Matt Chapman
>> >> Ninjitsu Web Development
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> The contents of this message should be assumed to be Confidential, and
>> >> may not be disclosed without permission of the sender.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 2:43 PM, Paolo Teodorani <teodorani at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Hallo everybody,
>> >> > I'm looking for a?CiviCRM / Drupal integration expert to help in a
>> >> > middle
>> >> > size project where we need to better integrate Civi and Drupal.
>> >> > If there is any that can spend few hours pls reply.
>> >> > Paolo
>> >> > teodorani at gmail.com
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > consulting mailing list
>> >> > consulting at drupal.org
>> >> > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> consulting mailing list
>> >> consulting at drupal.org
>> >> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > http://samcohen.com
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > consulting mailing list
>> > consulting at drupal.org
>> > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 13:48:06 -0400
>> From: David Notik <dave at d202.org>
>> Subject: Re: [consulting] CiviCRM / Drupal integration expert
>> To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting
>> providers" <consulting at drupal.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <t2gba28f97a1005051048p95e7de8fg8ae818f4d54af075 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Hi.
>>
>> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Matt Chapman <matt at ninjitsuweb.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Is there anybody
>> > around who's got the management skills to help redirect the momentum
>> > among CiviCRM new-comers into a project to re-create CiviCRM
>> > functionality using Drupal 7 as the framework?
>> >
>>
>> Music to my ears. I don't have the resources to lead that effort, but +1
>> for the need. It's really to bad we can't work with CCK and Views for
>> most
>> all CiviCRM functionality.
>>
>> I agree with your assessment about demand. CiviCRM is arguably much
>> harder
>> to work with than Drupal -- yet it does some powerful things, integrates
>> with Drupal, and remains in demand largely because of those points. For
>> CiviCRM/Drupal integration that goes beyond tying users to contact records
>> and exposing contribution pages and event registrations in the CMS, you
>> can
>> and should command a higher rate than Drupal most of the time. Anyway, my
>> shop charges one rate regardless.
>>
>> Just did a bit of work on one Drupal/CiviCRM project of ours --
>> www.jewishideas.org -- including replaced the fundraising campaign"goal
>> widget' with some custom stuff.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> --D
>> --
>> D202 - People-Centric Websites
>> 646.536.7502 || Office
>> www.davidnotik.com
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 13:43:03 -0400 (EDT)
>> From: "Sheryl" <gubydala at his.com>
>> Subject: Re: [consulting] CiviCRM / Drupal integration expert
>> To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting
>> providers" <consulting at drupal.org>
>> Message-ID: <43104.161.203.16.1.1273081383.squirrel at mail.his.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>> Matt Chapman wrote:
>>
>> > Do other share my experience that the CiviCRM market is actually
>> > vastly different than the Drupal market? I observe several factors
>> > that make me think so:
>> >
>> > 1.) I've seen very competent Drupal developers royally screw up
>> > CiviCRM work, due to ignorance of the vast difference between the two
>> > systems.
>>
>> I find this an interesting discussion myself, for rather parochial
>> reasons. I'm a sysadmin who has installed Drupal for work and has
>> actually written a plugin once upon a time. I'm also involved in a
>> non-profit which has very little money but would like to have some of the
>> things CiviCRM seems to offer on their website. They don't have the $$
>> for something like convio.
>>
>> I found someone who would donate a VM (apparently CiviCRM doesn't play
>> well on a multiuser system) but it sounds like CiviCRM may be too much for
>> us (I worry about how they're going to get help if I become unable to
>> continue supporting them for some reason).
>>
>> > 2.) I find it very difficult to locate competent CiviCRM developers
>> > who are eager to work on CiviCRM. (Most of us who do CiviCRM work
>> > don't enjoy working with the software.)
>>
>> Wow. I very seldom hear that about any package. What's wrong with it?
>>
>> > 3.) There is relatively little overlap in the learning curve for
>> > Drupal as compared to the learning curve for CiviCRM. I.e., once
>> > you've learned Theming, Drupal DB abstraction, Forms API, Views,
>> > Drupal permissions, and i18n, then you have to learn Smarty, PEAR:DB,
>> > QuickForm, Profiles, CiviCRM ACLs, and a completely different i18n
>> > system. And OOP PHP. CiviCRM really doubles the required knowledge
>> > base for a successful project.
>>
>> Yup. CiviCRM looking less and less likely.
>>
>> > 4.) With few exceptions, I have been successful in charging as much as
>> > double my 'Drupal rate' for CiviCRM work, or generally increasing my
>> > catch-all rate when a project involves CiviCRM.
>> >
>> > And yet, despite #3 and possibly because of #4, I see more and more
>> > people interested in CiviCRM at each DrupalCon or Drupal event where
>> > the topic comes up.
>>
>> Interesting. If our non-profit had that kind of money I'd get them hooked
>> up with a commercial hosted CRM solution instead of CiviCRM. I guess I'm
>> not understanding the attraction.
>>
>> Sheryl
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 10:56:36 -0700
>> From: Matt Chapman <matt at ninjitsuweb.com>
>> Subject: Re: [consulting] CiviCRM / Drupal integration expert
>> To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting
>> providers" <consulting at drupal.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <p2o80badb991005051056j96f18d9dzd021685662ed67a4 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Sheryl <gubydala at his.com> wrote:
>> > Interesting. If our non-profit had that kind of money I'd get them
>> > hooked
>> > up with a commercial hosted CRM solution instead of CiviCRM. I guess
>> > I'm
>> > not understanding the attraction.
>> >
>>
>> CiviCRM is mainly just a pain when you want to customize or extend it.
>> If it does what you need out-of-the-box, it's great. Given that you
>> can't customize hosted or closed-source solutions at all, CiviCRM
>> still wins.
>>
>> Also, the best known commercial solutions often start at tens of
>> thousands of dollars per year, last I checked. At that point, you can
>> often afford a fair bit of customization, even at double-drupal rates.
>>
>> All the Best,
>>
>> Matt Chapman
>> Ninjitsu Web Development
>>
>> --
>> The contents of this message should be assumed to be Confidential, and
>> may not be disclosed without permission of the sender.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> consulting mailing list
>> consulting at drupal.org
>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting
>>
>>
>> End of consulting Digest, Vol 52, Issue 5
>> *****************************************
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