[development] #drupal / #drupal-dev split considered harmful

Addison Berry addi at rocktreesky.com
Tue Jul 31 23:16:36 UTC 2007

Well a large part of my resistance is simply that this wasn't  
discussed at all in the community. IF this is a direction that we are  
moving in then I think it needs discussion and letting people know  
about it.  Of course it won't change if people don't even know about  
it.  It has the *feeling* of being an exclusive "in the club" thing.   
Of course, publicizing it means that newbies will just start to come  
there to get their questions answered, especially if no one is  
helping them in #drupal.

I'm still of the thought that having a separate dev channel is  
unnecessary.  I understand that having a "quiet" place that only  
"devs" know about can be a comfortable place to go, but Drupal is a  
community as much as it is a group of coders.  I feel like this  
should be a community decision and if it is decided as such, then the  
community can help with the transition rather than just mysteriously  
splitting.  As it stands now I feel like this is causing way more  
damage than good.

- Addi

On Jul 31, 2007, at 6:51 PM, Earl Miles wrote:

> Angela Byron wrote:
>> So please, #drupal-dev goers, either finish what you started by  
>> actively working in #drupal to make it more newbie-friendly, or  
>> abandon the experiment. So far, this feels like a net loss for the  
>> community.
> This is a lovely thought; however, resistance to the idea of  
> #drupal-dev makes it fairly difficult to actually change #drupal.  
> The fact that various people are refusing to set foot in #drupal- 
> dev shows me that any attempt to change #drupal is going to be met  
> with resistance, as it has in the past.
> So sure, you can ask us to change #drupal, but we haven't the  
> power. Those of us who moved to #drupal-dev have done what we have  
> the power to do. The -dev channel has been more focused and more  
> useful since we moved there; people who were avoiding #drupal  
> because it had become too big/loud/difficult to follow are willing  
> to hang out in -dev again.
> I'll be happy to spend time in #drupal again and help transform it,  
> but I don't see how that can happen until the people who object to  
> #drupal-dev's existence cease their objections. In general, the  
> sign (to me) that such a thing has happened is when the more vocal  
> opponents are willing to go into the channel.
> I've been avoiding talking about this in public. The debate itself  
> makes me angry; sometimes unreasonably so. Case in point: I went  
> off on sepeck, undeservedly, the other night, for being somewhat  
> snide about the channel. And people such as killes and Steven  
> who've been around a LOT longer than I have are on the list of  
> people who object to #drupal-dev. If transforming #drupal means  
> fighting them, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to use #drupal- 
> dev as a focused room for development, instead, for as long as  
> there are people willing to go there.
> I left #drupal as a way of drawing people over to the -dev channel.  
> At this point, the only people who aren't there are 1) people who  
> don't know about it, and 2) people who refuse to acknowledge it.  
> The only way to fix 1) is to make a lot of noise about it. I've  
> tried to avoid doing that. The way to fix 2) probably includes a  
> long fight about justifications. I'm not interested in a fight. I'm  
> interested in an environment where I can get things done.
> I wrote about my objections to the atmosphere in #drupal as my  
> seventh blog post on Angry Donuts: http://www.angrydonuts.com/ 
> drupal_and_user_experience -- in the year and a half that has  
> passed since I wrote that post, my basic opinion has not changed.  
> The arguments against -dev have not swayed me. The only reason -dev  
> didn't exist earlier is that it takes a group of people to make the  
> transition at once.
> We cannot transform #drupal over the objections of the people who  
> control #drupal. We can make #drupal-dev into the channel we want  
> it to be; the people who control #drupal can decide to change it,  
> or decide not to, or they can simply not decide and allow blame to  
> shift to those who choose to hang out in #drupal-dev rather than  
> #drupal.

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