[development] Drupal Answers: A Stackoverflow/StackExchange site proposal
Adam B. Ross
grayside at gmail.com
Wed Feb 2 17:23:42 UTC 2011
I really love StackOverflow. I think the model absolutely has a place
in the greater D.O universe. There are too many long-term
disadvantages to outsourcing our support system. Anything Drupal on SO
is sure to get good traffic, but so does any other niche-popular thing
on the Internet.
One of the unmentioned advantages of the SO model is definitive access
to questions and topics that go unanswered, or unanswered by good
answers. This informs documentation needs very well. (In fact, good
answers can be clean enough to copy-and-paste as documentation.)
Personally, I've only used the D.O forums a few times. I have been a
forum junky for years, but I guess I'm a forum style traditionalist- I
can't wrap my head around the aesthetic and functionality of Drupal
forums enough to want to "hang out in that website".
I've got some ideas about the kinds of things we'd want to consider in
building a Drupal SO site, I'll look for the right place to drop them.
On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 4:58 PM, larry at garfieldtech.com
<larry at garfieldtech.com> wrote:
> You're not confused, David. I don't think anyone was proposing a Drupal SO
> to replace the handbooks, just potentially the forums.
>
> Talking about Docs at all was an unnecessary tangent, and since it's never
> going to not have someone curating it (since a lack of curation and
> organization is, as I said previously, a bonehead idea that no one actually
> tries for more than a week on any reasonably sized effort) it's not worth
> getting upset over. I don't quite know how we got off onto that tangent,
> but we should probably get off of it quickly. :-)
>
> --Larry Garfield
>
> On 2/1/11 3:34 PM, David Metzler wrote:
>>
>> I'm confused... I didn't think StackOverflow was being discussed as a
>> replacement to handbook pages/docs. I thought it was being discussed as
>> a place to get questions answered, that is support? How to glue modules
>> together to get a task done?
>>
>> I admit to being confused about where I should put my module
>> documentation, but that's documentation, and I don't think that a tool
>> like StackOverflow would be a suitable replacement for the Handbook
>> sites, but maybe I've missed the whole point of this thread.
>>
>> I was advocating for "whoever actually does the work" (i.e. volunteers
>> their time) having a larger voice than those who just aren't happy with
>> the way the work is being done, and want to change it. That's not an
>> appointed team, and that analogy would still hold true on a site like
>> wikipedia. I was just pointing out that the people who actually answer
>> the questions are the most valuable resource we have and should be
>> driving the discussion.
>>
>> Hmmm.... I thought I was chiming on on a proposal to move much of the
>> kinds of things that happen in the support forums over to StackOverflow,
>> but it's pretty clear I've unintentionally hit some kind of nerve here
>> regarding your dissatisfaction with the documentation team.
>>
>> Didn't mean to offend....
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 7:50 AM, Victor Kane <victorkane at gmail.com
>> <mailto:victorkane at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 11:52 AM, David Metzler <metzler.dl at gmail.com
>> <mailto:metzler.dl at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Likewise although I already have to some extent:
>>
>>
>> first non-sequitur:
>>
>> I think we have a pretty free / wiki like approach in place
>> already. I also think that this is something that's best
>> decided by those who are doing the work.
>>
>>
>> wot? So if it's a free / wiki like approach, leave it alone, there
>> are no decisions to make. Maybe some occasional pruning or abuse
>> control, but that should be it.
>>
>> and then again:
>>
>> Seems like those that are up for doing the work should have the
>> loudest voice here.
>>
>>
>> This is the whole problem to the approach up till now: the
>> documentation should not be organized top-down: this model has shown
>> itself to be a failure. Everyone should be contributing to the
>> Drupal Handbook documentation, and to the extent they do, they are
>> having the loudest voice. There's no need for a "team" to exist on
>> top of that.
>>
>> All they do is move stuff around so it's harder to find. Or take
>> valuable Drupal 6 stuff out.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On Feb 1, 2011, at 4:37 AM, Victor Kane wrote:
>>
>>> I won't be able to go to DrupalCon this year, so I'll give my
>>> feedback here.
>>>
>>> One thing that's clear from the success of many open
>>> documentation sites (wikipedia, stack overflow) is that they
>>> avoid top down governance, they let the meritocracy form on
>>> the basis of what actually happens.
>>>
>>> I firmly believe that the existence of "document leads" and
>>> other forms of control have done more harm than good, despite
>>> heroic efforts from these individuals, since all that has
>>> happened over the last few years is a constant moving around
>>> of a hierarchical structure.
>>>
>>> Why wouldn't a freer, wiki like approach work?
>>>
>>> Victor Kane
>>> http://awebfactory.com.ar <http://awebfactory.com.ar/>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Randy Fay <randy at randyfay.com
>>> <mailto:randy at randyfay.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't think we can delegate any part of Drupal to
>>> something we don't control; I think that's just a non-starter.
>>>
>>> So for me, the issue is what we can learn from
>>> StackOverflow and friends - they do great stuff and end up
>>> with great content. And yes, I think we should build
>>> something on that.
>>>
>>> Who is signing up to build it? I think it's an easy sell.
>>>
>>> -Randy
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Dan Horning
>>> <dan.horning at planetnoc.com
>>> <mailto:dan.horning at planetnoc.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> i have to ask ... what would we actually gain by doing
>>> this - cleanup the various methods for finding info
>>> about a given module or theme or bug a little and we
>>> far surpass this suggested tool
>>>
>>> it seems that stackoverflow is driven very highly on
>>> userpoints to control access - which while a good
>>> thing - doesn't really fit the development model we
>>> have here. there are existing processes that would
>>> have to change to fit the suggested model. I for one
>>> am more for peer reviews and leadership staff
>>> assigning access than a points system that someone
>>> could rack up points and just get access ... what's
>>> that really do for the community - seems that would be
>>> great if we were just a tech help forum - awarding
>>> points for the users that help and giving them more
>>> access - but what's that do for drupal and it's
>>> community? (i know there is a potential for this to
>>> help ...)
>>>
>>> another area of issue to me is - another login ? or
>>> would it use SSO?
>>> do the drupal leadership users and dries have admin
>>> level control...?
>>>
>>> mostly here i just don't get what adding yet another
>>> resource (like has been said before) would do to help
>>> the lead devs, module + theme devs and just supporting
>>> drupal. if i had say -=- i'd vote against this idea
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan Horning
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "Victor Kane" <victorkane at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:victorkane at gmail.com>>
>>> > To: development at drupal.org
>>> <mailto:development at drupal.org>
>>> > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 6:01:55 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: [development] Drupal Answers: A
>>> Stackoverflow/StackExchange site proposal
>>> > I guess this is a good place to start:
>>> > http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Victor Kane <
>>> victorkane at gmail.com <mailto:victorkane at gmail.com> >
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Josh Koenig <
>>> josh at getpantheon.com <mailto:josh at getpantheon.com> >
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Stew,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Thanks for starting this thread. This is important
>>> stuff:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2978/drupal-answers
>>> >
>>> > I want to put my support behind this proposal and
>>> explain my thinking
>>> > in doing so.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The Drupal community is already growing faster than
>>> Drupal's
>>> > infrastructure can easily support. With the release
>>> of D7 and all the
>>> > other associated projects getting off the ground,
>>> drupal.org <http://drupal.org/> is
>>> > increasingly often a bottleneck or blocker. We have
>>> wonderful hosts
>>> > from OSUOSL, but the human resources needed to
>>> develop, maintain and
>>> > manage our own infrastructure (which is a 24x7x365
>>> job) are limited.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > We have to pick our battles. I much would rather see
>>> energy, effort,
>>> > attention and money poured into continuing to
>>> improve our git and
>>> > module infrastructure — which is much more deeply
>>> intrinsic to the
>>> > health and future of the project — and accept that
>>> even though we
>>> > *can* build our own StackOverflow (@eaton proved
>>> this already) that
>>> > doesn't necessarily mean it's the best use of
>>> limited resources, or
>>> > the best thing for the project.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Drupal can theoretically/technically solve a lot of
>>> its own problems,
>>> > but I think we often suffer from a "not built here"
>>> prejudice as a
>>> > result. In the realm of getting good quality answers
>>> to Drupal
>>> > questions out to the most people possible, I can't
>>> see how a
>>> > StackExchange site would do anything but help. I
>>> would love to see the
>>> > community embrace something really cool and useful
>>> from the wider
>>> > Internet as a way to promote the project.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > You make a convincing argument Josh; my own gut
>>> feeling has been,
>>> > reading this thread, "how can we delegate something
>>> so important to
>>> > the Drupal Community as its own documentation to
>>> another party who may
>>> > or may not exist in the near/medium/long term".
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Can someone inform somewhat on who these guys are?
>>> And why there and
>>> > not someplace else?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Victor
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Finally, I should say that I *do not* think a
>>> StackExchange answers
>>> > site replaces anything. It's not an issue queue, and
>>> it's not a
>>> > replacement for the dialogue that exist in the
>>> forums. I would say
>>> > it's a new resource, something that can help the 10s
>>> of 1000s of
>>> > people who will be trying to wrap their mind around
>>> Drupal in the
>>> > coming year.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Cheers
>>> > -josh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Randy Fay
>>> Drupal Module and Site Development
>>> randy at randyfay.com <mailto:randy at randyfay.com>
>>> +1 970.462.7450
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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