I've been reading these theming threads with much interest and it seems to me that part of the problem is trying to make the default theme work for different kinds of users. With respect to theming, I think we have three main types: 1) The out-of-the-boxer. This user just wants to set up a site and use the theme that's there. Maybe change the colours, but that's it. For this user, a very pretty eye-candy theme is great. Everything should be styled and it should just work with all browsers. 2) The power user that can't theme their way out of a wet paper bag. This user doesn't care a lot what the default theme looks like but wants one that's easy to modify with very little CSS/HTML/PHP knowledge. This theme needs very little markup and should focus heavily on changeability. 3) The theming guru. I don't know what this class wants. Maybe they don't even care what theme comes with Drupal as they always make their own? I think a big problem is that 1 and 2 are at odds with each other. Having a Wow! theme that's easy to change is difficult, maybe impossible. What I think, and this is totally IMO, is that the default theme (and maybe a couple others for variety) are made totally Wow! to address user type 1. Don't worry too much about making these easy to change. Make them work and make them pretty. Maybe put something for changing the colours at the top for a little tweak but, beyond that, expect them to be used as is. To address user type 2's needs, what we really need is a set of wire frames with minimal styling and lots of comments. Take the basic shapes that most websites used (that is, 1 2 or 3 columns, header, footer, stuff like that) and code them really well so the layout holds up to whatever contribs throw at it. Then put in all the various elements that can be styled, but leave them empty or with something fairly neutral. Put lots of comments on them so someone with just a little CSS knowledge can look at it and know what a change there will do. By doing this, the novice CSSer won't have to fight the browser quirk layout issues and all that mess but will be able to easily tweak the theme to look how they want it without having to unstyle a bunch of eye candy. Just my $0.02 US ;) Michelle (type 2)