Themes - Trying to do too much in one theme?
I've been reading these theming threads with much interest and it seems to me that part of the problem is trying to make the default theme work for different kinds of users. With respect to theming, I think we have three main types: 1) The out-of-the-boxer. This user just wants to set up a site and use the theme that's there. Maybe change the colours, but that's it. For this user, a very pretty eye-candy theme is great. Everything should be styled and it should just work with all browsers. 2) The power user that can't theme their way out of a wet paper bag. This user doesn't care a lot what the default theme looks like but wants one that's easy to modify with very little CSS/HTML/PHP knowledge. This theme needs very little markup and should focus heavily on changeability. 3) The theming guru. I don't know what this class wants. Maybe they don't even care what theme comes with Drupal as they always make their own? I think a big problem is that 1 and 2 are at odds with each other. Having a Wow! theme that's easy to change is difficult, maybe impossible. What I think, and this is totally IMO, is that the default theme (and maybe a couple others for variety) are made totally Wow! to address user type 1. Don't worry too much about making these easy to change. Make them work and make them pretty. Maybe put something for changing the colours at the top for a little tweak but, beyond that, expect them to be used as is. To address user type 2's needs, what we really need is a set of wire frames with minimal styling and lots of comments. Take the basic shapes that most websites used (that is, 1 2 or 3 columns, header, footer, stuff like that) and code them really well so the layout holds up to whatever contribs throw at it. Then put in all the various elements that can be styled, but leave them empty or with something fairly neutral. Put lots of comments on them so someone with just a little CSS knowledge can look at it and know what a change there will do. By doing this, the novice CSSer won't have to fight the browser quirk layout issues and all that mess but will be able to easily tweak the theme to look how they want it without having to unstyle a bunch of eye candy. Just my $0.02 US ;) Michelle (type 2)
Hi, Type 3 here ;) http://www.openquest.pt/ Regards, Fernando Silva On 10/4/06, Michelle Cox <mcox@charter.net> wrote:
I've been reading these theming threads with much interest and it seems to me that part of the problem is trying to make the default theme work for different kinds of users. With respect to theming, I think we have three main types:
1) The out-of-the-boxer. This user just wants to set up a site and use the theme that's there. Maybe change the colours, but that's it. For this user, a very pretty eye-candy theme is great. Everything should be styled and it should just work with all browsers.
2) The power user that can't theme their way out of a wet paper bag. This user doesn't care a lot what the default theme looks like but wants one that's easy to modify with very little CSS/HTML/PHP knowledge. This theme needs very little markup and should focus heavily on changeability.
3) The theming guru. I don't know what this class wants. Maybe they don't even care what theme comes with Drupal as they always make their own?
I think a big problem is that 1 and 2 are at odds with each other. Having a Wow! theme that's easy to change is difficult, maybe impossible. What I think, and this is totally IMO, is that the default theme (and maybe a couple others for variety) are made totally Wow! to address user type 1. Don't worry too much about making these easy to change. Make them work and make them pretty. Maybe put something for changing the colours at the top for a little tweak but, beyond that, expect them to be used as is.
To address user type 2's needs, what we really need is a set of wire frames with minimal styling and lots of comments. Take the basic shapes that most websites used (that is, 1 2 or 3 columns, header, footer, stuff like that) and code them really well so the layout holds up to whatever contribs throw at it. Then put in all the various elements that can be styled, but leave them empty or with something fairly neutral. Put lots of comments on them so someone with just a little CSS knowledge can look at it and know what a change there will do. By doing this, the novice CSSer won't have to fight the browser quirk layout issues and all that mess but will be able to easily tweak the theme to look how they want it without having to unstyle a bunch of eye candy.
Just my $0.02 US ;)
Michelle (type 2)
Type 3 here ;) http://www.openquest.pt/ Regards, Fernando Silva -------------- I tried several times to read the text but couldn't because of the ever changing top images. We should put something in Drupal that prevents themes as bad as this one. :-)
You don't like it? Could you be more specific why is bad? If possible send an email to me, to avoid this thread going off-topic. Anyway, thanks for take a look at it. :) On 10/4/06, Walt Daniels <wdlists@optonline.net> wrote:
Type 3 here ;) http://www.openquest.pt/
Regards, Fernando Silva
-------------- I tried several times to read the text but couldn't because of the ever changing top images.
We should put something in Drupal that prevents themes as bad as this one. :-)
"Fernando Silva" wrote:
You don't like it?
Right-o.
Could you be more specific why is bad?
1. You use a Flash banner (which Firefox thankfully blocked for me.) 2. The "graphic box" is too small -- why not use more of the browser window? 3. The type is too small. 4. The top image is too big and takes too much of the very little space you've provided for content. 5. Pointless (and user suppressible) Flash. 6. Your column heights are all wonky and makes me feel off-balance. 7. There are strange graphic elements which look like screen glitches. These, specifically, are the small "crop marks" or "plus signs" in the middle. 8. The bands of color on the top don't seem to align with any of the text links above them. It's kind of confusing and random. If you want your text links to have different colored thick borders under them, then use CSS to achieve this and the colors will actually align with something. 9. Your 'OpenQuest' branding is buried, and small, at the bottom left. Yet, you fill over half of the screen space with a giant picture of a swimmer. Okay, the photo has energy, is lively and is bright, but it is not connected by visual design metaphor to anything else on the page. (I don't read Portugese, and if I did, I wouldn't worry with trying on such tiny text, but maybe the text of the page has something to convey a connection to this image.) It looks a sports page, or a swimming page, or something similar. 10. Flash, for no reason I can determine. -- inkfree Lest anyone think that I think "Flash = Always Bad", I do not. I just think that this years-long wave of Flash for the sake of it is mucking up the web. Luckily, folks like me can block all Flash with simple browser plug-ins, and that's a fine compromise.)
"Walt Daniels" wrote:
We should put something in Drupal that prevents themes as bad as this one. :-)
You're not kidding. Was that actually a suggestion for a Drupal included theme?! It's way to small, the type is tiny and the graphic elements seem to have not relation to the site. OT: Also, on another issue, Fernando Silva, _please_ reconsider your email client's setting which includes the email address of the person you are quoting. Many list messages end up in a web-based archive, and you are providing much ammunition for automated email spiders by including people's email address. This may or may not be a big issue on this list, but in general, I think it's a bad idea -- you can accidentally expose a person's email address in the body of a message, even if mailing list software masks the To/From address. -- inkfree
On 4 Oct 2006, at 17:44, Walt Daniels wrote:
Type 3 here ;) http://www.openquest.pt/
Regards, Fernando Silva
-------------- I tried several times to read the text but couldn't because of the ever changing top images. We should put something in Drupal that prevents themes as bad as this one. :-)
I think Fernando is trying to say he's type 3 3) The theming guru. I don't know what this class wants. Maybe they don't even care what theme comes with Drupal as they always make their own? I don't think he is suggesting that this is a theme that out-of-the-box type 1 and 2 would want to use. Whether you like it or not it certainly doesn't say 'Drupal'. Mark
On 04 Oct 2006, at 5:31 PM, Michelle Cox wrote:
1) The out-of-the-boxer. This user just wants to set up a site and use the theme that's there. Maybe change the colours, but that's it. For this user, a very pretty eye-candy theme is great. Everything should be styled and it should just work with all browsers.
way ahead of you. I am in the process of developing a contrib module built exactly for this. The Istyledthis theme was built from the ground up to use this module : Before picking a new colour : http://www.oasismag.com/farb-1.jpg New colour picked, before submission, check preview : http://www.oasismag.com/farb-2.jpg After hitting change colour : http://www.oasismag.com/farb-3.jpg Colour schemes already mathematically generated for use in stylesheet templates : http://www.oasismag.com/farb-4.jpg Working on making it a more generic api that other themes can support, but it really does help a LOT that the theme was built for this.
"adrian rossouw" wrote:
On 04 Oct 2006, at 5:31 PM, Michelle Cox wrote:
1) The out-of-the-boxer. This user just wants to set up a site and use the theme that's there. Maybe change the colours, but that's it. For this user, a very pretty eye-candy theme is great. Everything should be styled and it should just work with all browsers.
way ahead of you. I am in the process of developing a contrib module built exactly for this.
Whoa. Very cool. Now, how about Graphic Sets, Type Style Sets, Column Count, and ... :) Nice work, and right in line with using a structural template to theme in many ways. -- inkfree
On Wednesday 04 October 2006 09:02, adrian rossouw wrote:
On 04 Oct 2006, at 5:31 PM, Michelle Cox wrote:
1) The out-of-the-boxer. This user just wants to set up a site and use the theme that's there. Maybe change the colours, but that's it. For this user, a very pretty eye-candy theme is great. Everything should be styled and it should just work with all browsers.
way ahead of you. I am in the process of developing a contrib module built exactly for this.
[ s n i p ]
Working on making it a more generic api that other themes can support, but it really does help a LOT that the theme was built for this.
I'm creating a theme for my own use that has as a feature the Argeebee color changing style, but it sounds like this module you are creating would be a better thing to use. What is the time frame before you have something useable to show off? -- Jason Flatt http://www.oadae.net/ Father of Six: http://www.flattfamily.com/ (Joseph, 13; Cramer, 11; Travis, 9; Angela; Harry, 5; and William, 12:04 am, 12-29-2005) Linux User: http://www.sourcemage.org/ Drupal Fanatic: http://drupal.org/
On 04 Oct 2006, at 6:39 PM, Jason Flatt wrote:
I'm creating a theme for my own use that has as a feature the Argeebee color changing style, but it sounds like this module you are creating would be a better thing to use. What is the time frame before you have something useable to show off? that's a screenshot of working code.
It still has a lot of problems like hard coded paths and other things. i'm still trying to figure out how to best make it an API. Since themes need to ship with recipes for re-compositing the images.
adrian rossouw wrote:
On 04 Oct 2006, at 5:31 PM, Michelle Cox wrote:
1) The out-of-the-boxer. This user just wants to set up a site and use the theme that's there. Maybe change the colours, but that's it. For this user, a very pretty eye-candy theme is great. Everything should be styled and it should just work with all browsers.
way ahead of you. I am in the process of developing a contrib module built exactly for this.
The Istyledthis theme was built from the ground up to use this module :
This is awesome. Really :-) But istyledthis.nl still lacks too many boxes and information (compared to themes.net): - drupal logo - better <h1> - contrast. istyledthis.nl is exactly the type of site i am forced to increase font size immediatelly after trying to read first word. just because gray on white blue IS NOT readable. - lacks links in node posts - node posts are not divided between themselves enough - missing tabs (user/login) - missing styling for warnings and errors Istyledthis.nl is just very nice header with some content added, i don't think it's enough for default core theme... Jakub
Increasing text size works on FireFox and netscape but not on IE. This is a common failing of themes and not acceptible. -----Original Message----- From: development-bounces@drupal.org [mailto:development-bounces@drupal.org] On Behalf Of Jakub Suchy Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 2:17 PM To: development@drupal.org Subject: Re: [development] Themes - Trying to do too much in one theme? adrian rossouw wrote:
On 04 Oct 2006, at 5:31 PM, Michelle Cox wrote:
1) The out-of-the-boxer. This user just wants to set up a site and use the theme that's there. Maybe change the colours, but that's it. For this user, a very pretty eye-candy theme is great. Everything should be styled and it should just work with all browsers.
way ahead of you. I am in the process of developing a contrib module built exactly for this.
The Istyledthis theme was built from the ground up to use this module :
This is awesome. Really :-) But istyledthis.nl still lacks too many boxes and information (compared to themes.net): - drupal logo - better <h1> - contrast. istyledthis.nl is exactly the type of site i am forced to increase font size immediatelly after trying to read first word. just because gray on white blue IS NOT readable. - lacks links in node posts - node posts are not divided between themselves enough - missing tabs (user/login) - missing styling for warnings and errors Istyledthis.nl is just very nice header with some content added, i don't think it's enough for default core theme... Jakub -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.12/462 - Release Date: 10/3/2006
Op 4-okt-2006, om 20:16 heeft Jakub Suchy het volgende geschreven:
adrian rossouw wrote:
On 04 Oct 2006, at 5:31 PM, Michelle Cox wrote:
1) The out-of-the-boxer. This user just wants to set up a site and use the theme that's there. Maybe change the colours, but that's it. For this user, a very pretty eye-candy theme is great. Everything should be styled and it should just work with all browsers.
way ahead of you. I am in the process of developing a contrib module built exactly for this.
The Istyledthis theme was built from the ground up to use this module :
Can everybody please stop whining? The theme on istyledthis.nl isn't complete and finished yet.. I said this before and I say it again now.. When it's done, it's done.. I'll synchronise the site with my localhost version in the upcoming 12 hours.. Till then, please stop this "i don't like this, and that" and "It's not finished"... Stefan
Chiming in. IMO a theme is not just a look. But mostly a 'feel'. The *only* way to get the 'feeling' good is to make a theme for a specific need. There is absolutely no way that anyone can make a good theme for a protal site about Beer, that works on a Muslim blog, stil runs well as the professional theme for a doctors practice, and also suits the needs of thousands of kiddies that want a blog about pocahontas and their newest playstation five. If you make a theme for a blog,it will look brilliant on the default bog, but it will fall apart on any more advanced grassroots community site. IMO we should focus. Make themes that work for one case, forget about Drupal-for-no-one-in-particular. Forget about all these silly options in theme setting. Forget about the option to turn on or off the 'submitted by' settings on certain node types. On a brochure-ware site you never ever want 'submitted by' on /any/ page. On a personal blog you want 'submitted on' not 'by' (its all 'submitted by SuperUser', why bother.) Just make the stuff the way people need it in a certain case. Make good themes for certain cases, and be clear about the case they were for, and don't try to be for 'nothing in particular'. Because then you end up with a theme that is not 'for not one case in particular' but instead 'never really good, for anyone, at all'. Just my shot. Bèr
On 4 Oct 2006, at 21:18, Bèr Kessels wrote:
Chiming in.
IMO a theme is not just a look. But mostly a 'feel'. The *only* way to get the 'feeling' good is to make a theme for a specific need.
There is absolutely no way that anyone can make a good theme for a protal site about Beer, that works on a Muslim blog, stil runs well as the professional theme for a doctors practice, and also suits the needs of thousands of kiddies that want a blog about pocahontas and their newest playstation five.
If you make a theme for a blog,it will look brilliant on the default bog, but it will fall apart on any more advanced grassroots community site.
IMO we should focus. Make themes that work for one case, forget about Drupal-for-no-one-in-particular. Forget about all these silly options in theme setting. Forget about the option to turn on or off the 'submitted by' settings on certain node types. On a brochure-ware site you never ever want 'submitted by' on /any/ page. On a personal blog you want 'submitted on' not 'by' (its all 'submitted by SuperUser', why bother.) Just make the stuff the way people need it in a certain case.
Make good themes for certain cases, and be clear about the case they were for, and don't try to be for 'nothing in particular'. Because then you end up with a theme that is not 'for not one case in particular' but instead 'never really good, for anyone, at all'.
Just my shot.
Bèr
Well said! I've only been using Drupal for a couple of months so don't shoot me down, but... Having just skimmed over this thread but it was starting to sound like a "designing by committee" client meeting from hell. I think the thread title "Trying to do too much in one theme" is spot on. The fact that Drupal can do so much means that people expect the default theme to do so much. What's wrong with having one standard flexible theme that suits the default installation, albeit more polished than Blue Marine, and let people choose from the contributed themes? I don't see the problem. If anything the theme section could be split into sections or have themes tagged under suggested suitability. Corporate/Blogs/Community etc. Can this not be thrown open to designers/themers, asking for contributions under the various sections and then make a selection to distribute with Drupal? Drupal-Blog, Drupal-Corporate etc? Making a theme look corporate is only part of the problem - as a new user I found Taxonomy and Category module extremely hard to get my head round - in fact I'm only just getting it. As a new user how do you go about applying taxonomy to structure a site and produce subnavigation? With difficulty. Surely this whole thread points to different distributions of Drupal with pre-configured taxonomy, categories and sub menus. Just my thoughts - OK go on, shoot me down. Mark
participants (10)
-
adrian rossouw -
Bèr Kessels -
Fernando Silva -
inkfree press -
Jakub Suchy -
Jason Flatt -
Mark Hope -
Michelle Cox -
Stefan Nagtegaal -
Walt Daniels