You guys write dozens of stupid letters about RFC: letting modules phone home to check for new releases which leads to nowhere aside from the usual "RoR does this better but aside from this I have nothing substantial to add" totally derailing the issue any hand. Who reviews patches? Who fixes bugs? We have a release at hand! Let's consider this as a new rule: before writing to devel during the code freeze, you should link to an issue followup where you actually added something. Consider this as a karma. /me steps down from his soapbox and goes off with steam coming from both ears
Op donderdag 23 november 2006 10:28, schreef Karoly Negyesi:
Let's consider this as a new rule: before writing to devel during the code freeze, you should link to an issue followup where you actually added something. Consider this as a karma.
Lets not consider this as a rule =) Great people have added great stuff to Drupal without writing a single line of PHP, without commenting to a single issue. The moment we are going to set rules for people to discuss stuff, based on metrics such as committed patches, we have killed a successful open community. Isn't it "free as in freedom"? If people discuss stuff on the mailinglist, such a discussion proves there is a certain itch. Wether or not that is your personal itch should not matter. Get yourself a mailreader that can ignore threads if it really annoys you, but please do not try to kill a discussion just because you don't like it, or because in your vision there are more important matters. Bèr -- Drupal, Ruby on Rails and Joomla! development: webschuur.com | Drupal hosting: sympal.nl
Op donderdag 23 november 2006 10:28, schreef Karoly Negyesi:
Let's consider this as a new rule: before writing to devel during the code freeze, you should link to an issue followup where you actually added something. Consider this as a karma.
Lets not consider this as a rule =) Great people have added great stuff to Drupal without writing a single line of PHP, without commenting to a single issue. The moment we are going to set rules for people to discuss stuff, based on metrics such as committed patches, we have killed a successful open community. Isn't it "free as in freedom"?
If people discuss stuff on the mailinglist, such a discussion proves there is a certain itch. Wether or not that is your personal itch should not matter. Get yourself a mailreader that can ignore threads if it really annoys you, but please do not try to kill a discussion just because you don't like it, or because in your vision there are more important matters.
No need to make karma explicit. Through our conversations and cooperation, we build trust and respect. For each of you, my brain keeps a karma-score that is derived from our interactions. I bet you a beer that your brain does the same. :) It's actually quite simple: "you get karma when you accomplish things". It doesn't get more complex than that yet people fail to see it. You can accomplish things through talk, through writing or through coding. What Karoly meant to say is that there are quite a few people that like to debate technical stuff without accomplishing technical things. It doesn't buy them karma -- quite the opposite. But most of all, Karoly meant to say that we need to focus more on getting Drupal 5 out, and that we could use more people working the bug tracker. The people that do spend a lot of time in the issue tracker would love to help plan the future, and work on exciting new things. For them, it's frustrating to see other people debate about the future without being concerned about the current. Why? Because all the talk is not likely to "accomplish" anything unless we get Drupal 5 out first. At this point in the release schedule, technical talk doesn't buy you much karma. So thank god my e-mail client can kill threads. Oh, and sorry for being meta. Hopefully I didn't loose too much karma with this mail. I should have known better. Anyway, I hope I clarified Karoly's words for you. -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
On Nov 23, 2006, at 9:54 AM, Dries Buytaert wrote:
Anyway, I hope I clarified Karoly's words for you.
Karoly's rant is fairly counter-productive in my opinion. Guilt is a lousy motivator. The last major release took 13 months and it was a complete mystery to even the most intimate observers when or what was necessary to get 4.7 out the door. There's little understanding in what it's going to take to get this release out, unless you reviewing the issue queue. Out of 80 000+ accounts on Drupal.org how many unique hits are there to the 5.0 core issue queue? Leadership is often about communication and having a consistent message to rally supporters. Regularly publishing a list of critical bugs to the developers mailing list and to the front page of Drupal.org that indicate what's necessary to get beta 2 out the door would be helpful. It's also important to keep in mind that I don't know anyone who runs Drupal core. So enthusiasm for getting 5.0 out the door is as much about waiting for contributed modules to be ported to 5.0 as it is about getting core out. Right now there's about approximately 70 contributed modules which have been ported to 5.0. There is upgrade documentation and a new module upgrade module all of which support the the 5.0 sites people will actually use, and will actually be motivated to fix. So if someone is ranting about core, and creating no patches for core, and doing no testing of core they still might be very active in moving the Drupal community to 5.0. That's because they are porting contributed modules, using the upgrade documentation, testing upgrading tools, and basically tackling the hardest part of using Drupal. Participation comes in many forms and all deserve respect. To assist in this effort I am happy to volunteer to write a post of the front page of Drupal.org with a list of the issues necessary for Beta 2, and include links to the 70 contributed modules which should be tested with 5.0 beta 1. Just help me identify the remaining issues for beta 2. Cheers, Kieran
Karoly's rant is fairly counter-productive in my opinion. Guilt is a lousy motivator.
And repetitive. He did this last time, with the admonishment that he'd turn the list moderated and enforce his tyrannical "rule" ;) -- Morbus Iff ( i subscribe to the theory of intellectual osmosis ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
On 23 Nov 2006, at 19:32, Kieran Lal wrote:
The last major release took 13 months and it was a complete mystery to even the most intimate observers when or what was necessary to get 4.7 out the door. There's little understanding in what it's going to take to get this release out, unless you reviewing the issue queue.
It is documented in the release announcement at http://drupal.org/ drupal-5.0-beta1.
It's also important to keep in mind that I don't know anyone who runs Drupal core.
I know a fair amount of people that run Drupal core.
So if someone is ranting about core, and creating no patches for core, and doing no testing of core they still might be very active in moving the Drupal community to 5.0. That's because they are porting contributed modules, using the upgrade documentation, testing upgrading tools, and basically tackling the hardest part of using Drupal. Participation comes in many forms and all deserve respect.
I couldn't agree more.
To assist in this effort I am happy to volunteer to write a post of the front page of Drupal.org with a list of the issues necessary for Beta 2, and include links to the 70 contributed modules which should be tested with 5.0 beta 1. Just help me identify the remaining issues for beta 2.
The critical bugs need fixing. No need to write up a post about it; we'll get them fixed soon enough and I plan to roll a beta 2 the next couple days. The point of my e-mail was not to rally testers but to stop counter-productive debates on the development mailing list. -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Dries Buytaert wrote:
But most of all, Karoly meant to say that we need to focus more on getting Drupal 5 out, and that we could use more people working the bug tracker. The people that do spend a lot of time in the issue tracker would love to help plan the future, and work on exciting new things. For them, it's frustrating to see other people debate about the future without being concerned about the current. Why? Because all the talk is not likely to "accomplish" anything unless we get Drupal 5 out first.
IMO, the thread that Derek started this whole thing with *is* the current, and I'm disappointed that it's considered otherwise.
IMO, the thread that Derek started this whole thing with *is* the current, and I'm disappointed that it's considered otherwise.
I have not reacted to Derek's or your post... I was angry with the fact that the whole discussion got de-railed again... But, if my closing comment was not enough to signal that I just vented, then here it is explicit. Note to Kieran: I did sent a mail to this very list with a subject of last critical...
Karoly Negyesi wrote:
IMO, the thread that Derek started this whole thing with *is* the current, and I'm disappointed that it's considered otherwise.
I have not reacted to Derek's or your post... I was angry with the fact that the whole discussion got de-railed again...
But, if my closing comment was not enough to signal that I just vented, then here it is explicit.
Note to Kieran: I did sent a mail to this very list with a subject of last critical...
My apologies, I misunderstood the starting point of your post. I do understand your frustration.
participants (6)
-
Bèr Kessels -
Dries Buytaert -
Earl Miles -
Karoly Negyesi -
Kieran Lal -
Morbus Iff