Administration page patch committed
Hello world, I committed Earl's administration page patch! Details at http:// drupal.org/node/72079. Great job, Earl. This is a big change that requires you to update your modules; you'll have to re-categorize your modules' admin pages. Earl promised to provide some guidelines to help you make the right decisions. Keep an eye on the upgrade instructions in the handbook at drupal.org. Chances are that this breaks a number of patches in the patch queue. Please take the time to re-roll them so we can continue to make progress. It's exactly 1 month to the Drupal 4.8/5.0 code freeze. Note that we're well aware that there is room for improvement so feel free to submit patches that build upon Earl's work. It's not perfect, but it is certainly a big step forward. For example, we could use some help making the administration page a tad sexier. Rock on folks! -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Fist of all, great work, Earl! Dries Buytaert schrieb:
Note that we're well aware that there is room for improvement so feel free to submit patches that build upon Earl's work. It's not perfect, but it is certainly a big step forward. For example, we could use some help making the administration page a tad sexier.
Hmm, concerning the look&feel of administration pages: I think we should create a new administration theme. The time of bluemarine is - in my eyes - over. It's difficult to have a sexy administration page within bluemarine, because bluemarine is not in particular sexy. And this is not about funky-web-2.0-ish-ajaxy-whatever stuff but mainly about usability. Sometimes, Ajax *can* improve usability a lot, sometimes not (therefore it would also be great to get jquery into core, but that's another topic) Many themes are great themes for viewing a website, but are often not designed to be used with an administrative backend. So I think drupal should *provide* a theme that's just perfect to be uses with the administration center. Site builders can then decide wether they want to use their own theme or administration theme for the admin center or the drupal default administration theme. Is it currently possible to "map" a theme to a path (admin theme to admin/*) without using contrib? If not, we should get a little patch for this into 4.8 together with a new admin theme. regards, frando
Rock on folks!
-- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Frando (Franz Heinzmann) wrote:
Fist of all, great work, Earl!
Dries Buytaert schrieb:
Note that we're well aware that there is room for improvement so feel free to submit patches that build upon Earl's work. It's not perfect, but it is certainly a big step forward. For example, we could use some help making the administration page a tad sexier.
Hmm, concerning the look&feel of administration pages:
I think we should create a new administration theme. The time of bluemarine is - in my eyes - over.
I completely agree. While I don't think a new admin theme will happen before the code freeze, I have every belief that a good, sexy, solid admin theme *is* doable, and the question is finding the right person to design one.
It's difficult to have a sexy administration page within bluemarine, because bluemarine is not in particular sexy. And this is not about funky-web-2.0-ish-ajaxy-whatever stuff but mainly about usability. Sometimes, Ajax *can* improve usability a lot, sometimes not (therefore it would also be great to get jquery into core, but that's another topic)
Yes. One can do a *lot* just by creating color balance, setting up negative space properly, and ensuring everything is positioned in a way to make the eyes flow from data point to data point. It improves the speed the data is read and it reduces the 'fear factor'.
Many themes are great themes for viewing a website, but are often not designed to be used with an administrative backend. So I think drupal should *provide* a theme that's just perfect to be uses with the administration center. Site builders can then decide wether they want to use their own theme or administration theme for the admin center or the drupal default administration theme.
Is it currently possible to "map" a theme to a path (admin theme to admin/*) without using contrib?
Look carefully at the administration page setting in the new admin area. It lets you choose the administration theme, which now defaults to bluemarine (because it's at least sane). There is currently nothing in the way of creating a good administration theme, and if anybody feels they 1) are a talented designer and 2) can write clean HTML/CSS, then now would be a great time to start. I think a real admin theme will require more patches to core, just to make a lot of the administration pages better/more themeable. I'm all for that, as I work my way from page to page that I particularly think needs love. But I am not a designer so much as trying to improve the design AND set up features the way I think they need to be.
Op donderdag 3 augustus 2006 16:37, schreef Earl Miles:
I completely agree. While I don't think a new admin theme will happen before the code freeze, I have every belief that a good, sexy, solid admin theme *is* doable, and the question is finding the right person to design one.
I really beleive this a case of "Just Do It". making such a theme has been on my todo for a long time, but I lack he time/money (and pressure) to actualy get to it. :) Bèr -- [ Bèr Kessels | Drupal services www.webschuur.com ]
Bèr Kessels wrote:
Op donderdag 3 augustus 2006 16:37, schreef Earl Miles:
I completely agree. While I don't think a new admin theme will happen before the code freeze, I have every belief that a good, sexy, solid admin theme *is* doable, and the question is finding the right person to design one.
I really beleive this a case of "Just Do It".
making such a theme has been on my todo for a long time, but I lack he time/money (and pressure) to actualy get to it. :)
I maybe can help out with the pressure. }|->> Cheers, Gerhard
how about we just steal the markup from drupal 4.3's admin section ? that was clean and pretty. On 8/4/06, Gerhard Killesreiter <gerhard@killesreiter.de> wrote:
Bèr Kessels wrote:
Op donderdag 3 augustus 2006 16:37, schreef Earl Miles:
I completely agree. While I don't think a new admin theme will happen before the code freeze, I have every belief that a good, sexy, solid admin theme *is* doable, and the question is finding the right person to design one.
I really beleive this a case of "Just Do It".
making such a theme has been on my todo for a long time, but I lack he time/money (and pressure) to actualy get to it. :)
I maybe can help out with the pressure. }|->>
Cheers, Gerhard
Well, I wouldn't recall that 'pretty', but clean??? yeah, 'clean' it was... Op 4-aug-2006, om 15:51 heeft Adrian Rossouw het volgende geschreven:
how about we just steal the markup from drupal 4.3's admin section ?
that was clean and pretty.
On 8/4/06, Gerhard Killesreiter < gerhard@killesreiter.de> wrote:Bèr Kessels wrote:
Op donderdag 3 augustus 2006 16:37, schreef Earl Miles:
I completely agree. While I don't think a new admin theme will happen before the code freeze, I have every belief that a good, sexy, solid admin theme *is* doable, and the question is finding the right person to design one.
I really beleive this a case of "Just Do It".
making such a theme has been on my todo for a long time, but I lack he time/money (and pressure) to actualy get to it. :)
I maybe can help out with the pressure. }|->>
Cheers, Gerhard
it's a start. we could add the druplicon watermark the installer / etc has. On 8/4/06, Stefan Nagtegaal <Drupal-Devel@istyledthis.nl> wrote:
Well, I wouldn't recall that 'pretty', but clean??? yeah, 'clean' it was...
Op 4-aug-2006, om 15:51 heeft Adrian Rossouw het volgende geschreven:
how about we just steal the markup from drupal 4.3's admin section ?
that was clean and pretty.
On 8/4/06, Gerhard Killesreiter < gerhard@killesreiter.de> wrote:Bèr Kessels wrote:
Op donderdag 3 augustus 2006 16:37, schreef Earl Miles:
I completely agree. While I don't think a new admin theme will happen before the code freeze, I have every belief that a good, sexy, solid admin theme *is* doable, and the question is finding the right person to design one.
I really beleive this a case of "Just Do It".
making such a theme has been on my todo for a long time, but I lack he time/money (and pressure) to actualy get to it. :)
I maybe can help out with the pressure. }|->>
Cheers, Gerhard
I would say the biggest single improvement for any dedicated admin theme is removing all the extraneous blocks, navigation, etc from the page and only providing the common site header (or a minimal version of it with logo and site_name), and the admin menu links. -Rowan
Rowan Kerr wrote:
I would say the biggest single improvement for any dedicated admin theme is removing all the extraneous blocks, navigation, etc from the page and only providing the common site header (or a minimal version of it with logo and site_name), and the admin menu links.
-Rowan
i agree. i would actually like for theme('page') to be enhanced so that any page can declare itself as block free. this would override settings in block admin. the use case is panels.module - http://drupal.org/project/panels ... there might be other ways to achieve this too.
What about using the old CivicSpace administration theme as a starting point? It would need to be cleaned up a bit, but it had minimal headers, few blocks and Chris had a good admin color schema going. Farsheed --- Moshe Weitzman <weitzman@tejasa.com> wrote:
Rowan Kerr wrote:
I would say the biggest single improvement for any dedicated admin theme is removing all the extraneous blocks, navigation, etc from the page and only providing the common site header (or a minimal version of it with logo and site_name), and the admin menu links.
-Rowan
i agree. i would actually like for theme('page') to be enhanced so that any page can declare itself as block free. this would override settings in block admin. the use case is panels.module - http://drupal.org/project/panels ... there might be other ways to achieve this too.
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Op vrijdag 4 augustus 2006 20:56, schreef Farsheed:
What about using the old CivicSpace administration theme as a starting point? It would need to be cleaned up a bit, but it had minimal headers, few blocks and Chris had a good admin color schema going.
This is what I tried once. But it is far to hard-tied into the CS bundle. IT is far more work to extract the relevant parts then to write one from scratch. Plan: During the OSCON I want to host a themeing workshop. We could build this around such an admin theme? So that the end of he workshop brings us a first admin theme? -- PGP ber@webschuur.com http://www.webschuur.com/sites/webschuur.com/files/ber_webschuur.asc Layoutkeuze, de stap voordat je gaat (laten) ontwerpen.: http://help.sympal.nl/layoutkeuze_de_stap_voordat_je_gaat_laten_ontwerpen
Op 5-aug-2006, om 8:58 heeft Bèr Kessels het volgende geschreven:
Op vrijdag 4 augustus 2006 20:56, schreef Farsheed:
What about using the old CivicSpace administration theme as a starting point? It would need to be cleaned up a bit, but it had minimal headers, few blocks and Chris had a good admin color schema going.
This is what I tried once. But it is far to hard-tied into the CS bundle. IT is far more work to extract the relevant parts then to write one from scratch.
Plan: During the OSCON I want to host a themeing workshop. We could build this around such an admin theme? So that the end of he workshop brings us a first admin theme?
I'm probably jumping in a bit late into the discussion, but am I understanding we want a separate admin-theme for drupal? Why? One or two years back Adrian and I were convinced that merging the administration into the normal layout of the site, was the way to go.. Steef
Op zaterdag 5 augustus 2006 10:52, schreef Stefan Nagtegaal:
I'm probably jumping in a bit late into the discussion, but am I understanding we want a separate admin-theme for drupal? Why? One or two years back Adrian and I were convinced that merging the administration into the normal layout of the site, was the way to go..
We are talking about a *theme*. A theme just like any other one, but one that can be enabled (using sections, or some simpler code) on your admin area. -- [ End-user Drupal services and hosting | Sympal.nl ] Layoutkeuze, de stap voordat je gaat (laten) ontwerpen.: http://help.sympal.nl/layoutkeuze_de_stap_voordat_je_gaat_laten_ontwerpen
Op 5-aug-2006, om 10:55 heeft Bèr Kessels het volgende geschreven:
Op zaterdag 5 augustus 2006 10:52, schreef Stefan Nagtegaal:
I'm probably jumping in a bit late into the discussion, but am I understanding we want a separate admin-theme for drupal? Why? One or two years back Adrian and I were convinced that merging the administration into the normal layout of the site, was the way to go..
We are talking about a *theme*. A theme just like any other one, but one that can be enabled (using sections, or some simpler code) on your admin area. Okay, and how are you going to handle the block placements in the admin theme? I mean, I don't think you use the same blocks in your sidebars when your admin-theme becomes active, then the normal website layout?
Wouldn't you think it becomes weird in some kind of way to understand that your site changes once you are administering your site? And where does the administration section begin? How are we going to separate administration and public-shared site? On what base? Steef
Stefan Nagtegaal wrote:
Wouldn't you think it becomes weird in some kind of way to understand that your site changes once you are administering your site? And where does the administration section begin? How are we going to separate administration and public-shared site? On what base?
Hardly. Many people have been confused, coming from other CMS's, that the admin section *is* part of the site.
Wouldn't you think it becomes weird in some kind of way to understand that your site changes once you are administering your site? And where does the administration section begin? How are we going to separate administration and public-shared site? On what base?
Hardly. Many people have been confused, coming from other CMS's, that the admin section *is* part of the site.
Indeed. MovableType and Blogger has /never/ themed their admin section to match that of the public side. I regularly use sections.module to split off my public side with my admin side. -- Morbus Iff ( take your rosaries off my ovaries ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
That said, I think Drupal's *ability* to treat the admin and public sections of the site similarly is a real advantage. I just spent some time looking through extensions.joomla.org, and a large number of its "administration" modules are just tools that let you look at the "public-facing" portions of the site while you're in the administrative 'silo.' I'm glad we never relaly have to deal with that in Drupal. That said, it doesn't mean we have to treat admin and public-facing portions of the site *exactly the same*. :) --Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Morbus Iff [mailto:morbus@disobey.com] Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 10:15 AM To: development@drupal.org Subject: Re: [development] Administration page patch committed
Wouldn't you think it becomes weird in some kind of way to understand that your site changes once you are administering your site? And where does the administration section begin? How are we going to
separate administration and public-shared site? On what base?
Hardly. Many people have been confused, coming from other CMS's, that the admin section *is* part of the site.
Indeed. MovableType and Blogger has /never/ themed their admin section to match that of the public side. I regularly use sections.module to split off my public side with my admin side.
On 5 Aug 2006, at 09:52, Stefan Nagtegaal wrote:
I'm probably jumping in a bit late into the discussion, but am I understanding we want a separate admin-theme for drupal? Why? One or two years back Adrian and I were convinced that merging the administration into the normal layout of the site, was the way to go..
Steef
I'm also jumping in a bit late too, and having only used Drupal on 3 fairly small sites may not have the full picture but... - I find it useful to have the admin as part of the front end site - My clients find it useful and easier to get their heads around the idea of navigating to content and hitting 'edit' As others might find it a requirement :-) http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/ibm/library/i-osource1/ index.html?ca=drs # Separation of content from presentation # In-place commenting on content # In-place editing of content - The ability to override when an 'Admin' theme is present otherwise falling back to the front end theme is appealing. Why not make the admin theme selectable from the settings? Mark http://drupal.org/user/62940
- The ability to override when an 'Admin' theme is present otherwise falling back to the front end theme is appealing. Why not make the admin theme selectable from the settings?
That's exactly the patch we are discussing. And it is already in the latest CVS version of Drupal - just not in 4.7. It will be in the next major version, however (4.8 or 5.0).
Why don't we invite some people to give it a try? For a small but talented webdesign company, having the default Drupal core theme might worth a lot in marketing value. I'm pretty sure you'd get various leads out of it. :) If not, you'd still be the hero of the next Drupal release. ;-) Rather than keeping this on the development mailing list where hardly any designers are to be found, why don't we open this up a little? :) For example, why don't we invite the Alex and Arto brothers to come up with: 1. a new default theme for Drupal core and/or 2. a better adminsitration theme and/or 3. subtle refinements for bluemarine Alex won the Slashdot redesign contest and they are already familiar with Drupal. Alex: http://www.macbert.com/ Arto: http://bendiken.net/ Their company: http://www.makalumedia.com/ Of course, every one is welcome to propose or submit a design but maybe this should be discussed amongst designers rather than developers. -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Dries Buytaert schrieb:
Of course, every one is welcome to propose or submit a design but maybe this should be discussed amongst designers rather than developers.
I wouldn't call me a designer but I've created a simple proposal [1] (as posted yesterday). Now its a little more extended (using jQuery to collapse blocks, ...) and the themes page is also viewable. [1] http://dev.borchert.cc/drupal/style/
Dries Buytaert wrote:
I'm pretty sure you'd get various leads out of it. :) I think you're overvaluing leads vs eating and paying the rent :)
Even for a team of people doing the things you've suggested well would take the best part of a month. I don't suppose Jeff or Ted could give us a ballpark figure on how long http://twit.tv took including the designers time?
Alex won the Slashdot redesign contest and they are already familiar with Drupal. Slashdot were offering a loaded MacBook Pro.
Of course, every one is welcome to propose or submit a design but maybe this should be discussed amongst designers rather than developers. Well, interface designers maybe. But since all of these things are possible in themes the themes list and group would seem to be adequate.
-- Adrian Simmons (aka adrinux) <http://adrinux.perlucida.com> e-mail <mailto:adrinux@perlucida.com>
Op zaterdag 5 augustus 2006 19:19, schreef Adrian Simmons:
Dries Buytaert wrote:
I'm pretty sure you'd get various leads out of it. :)
I think you're overvaluing leads vs eating and paying the rent :)
Even for a team of people doing the things you've suggested well would take the best part of a month. I don't suppose Jeff or Ted could give us a ballpark figure on how long http://twit.tv took including the designers time?
Alex won the Slashdot redesign contest and they are already familiar with Drupal.
Slashdot were offering a loaded MacBook Pro.
I offered a Theming workshop (or two) on DrupalCON in Brussels. I wuold love to take the "admin" theme as a lead, and make the workshop a two-sided sword: learning how to theme + present Drupal with an admni theme. If 12 people attend and all pick a part we can have a very nice starter ready by the end of the hour :) -- [ Bèr Kessels | Drupal services www.webschuur.com ] Written while listening to Skidmarks by Alland Byallo on [EPS06] Club Soda & Salt
On 05 Aug 2006, at 19:19, Adrian Simmons wrote:
Dries Buytaert wrote:
I'm pretty sure you'd get various leads out of it. :) I think you're overvaluing leads vs eating and paying the rent :)
Alex won the Slashdot redesign contest and they are already familiar with Drupal. Slashdot were offering a loaded MacBook Pro.
Only for the winner, that is. If they hadn't won, then they wouldn't be able to eat? :) Clearly, some people are willing to take the risk, or actually enjoy a challenge. That said, Robert Douglas, at one point, toyed with the idea to organize a theme contest. -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Dries Buytaert wrote:
Only for the winner, that is. If they hadn't won, then they wouldn't be able to eat? :) Deliberate misinterpretation :P They can justify spending the time on the basis that they *might* win an expensive piece of hardware, something that would otherwise be a major expense to their business.
Clearly, some people are willing to take the risk, or actually enjoy a challenge. More importantly there is a big incentive to succeed. And doing it half-heartedly would clearly be pointless, since you'd be unlikely to win.
That said, Robert Douglas, at one point, toyed with the idea to organize a theme contest. I can only relate an anecdote and an experience. Earlier this year one of the web design lists I subscribe to had an interesting thread about an organization offering $100 dollar prize in a design competition and only receiving one entry - which they didn't like. Secondly there was the recent design competition for evolt.org (evolt,org is of course now running on Drupal). No prizes offered. Two entries were received, both from the core of people already involved with evolt.org, none from the wider community. Both designs are competent and visually improve on the current site, but neither have yet been implemented, I suspect because they're evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Nobody really has the incentive or time to polish the designs and push them out.
My point is: you need to offer a real incentive if you want a design shop to come up with a better admin interface and/or a new core theme. Kudos doesn't really cut it. -- Adrian Simmons (aka adrinux) <http://adrinux.perlucida.com> e-mail <mailto:adrinux@perlucida.com>
Dries Buytaert wrote:
2. a better adminsitration theme and/or
I don't think we should have a separate administration theme, but a separate administration themeable function, in parallel to theme_page() and theme_maintenance_page(). This could solve the blocks issue by making a hard-coded administration block region which is only used by the administration themeable function. -- Neil Drumm http://delocalizedham.com/
Op 5-aug-2006, om 20:04 heeft Neil Drumm het volgende geschreven:
Dries Buytaert wrote:
2. a better adminsitration theme and/or
I don't think we should have a separate administration theme, but a separate administration themeable function, in parallel to theme_page() and theme_maintenance_page().
This could solve the blocks issue by making a hard-coded administration block region which is only used by the administration themeable function. And if the theme_admin_page() doesn't exists, it'll fall back to theme_page() ?
I like this proposal... Steef
Why would you need this? You can easily define an "admin" blocks section and fill your admin-only blocks in there. Regular users don't see it as they don't have the permissions to see the block. Optionally, you can restrict these blocks to only show up on certain pages with Drupal's built-in features. 2006/8/5, Neil Drumm <drumm@delocalizedham.com>:
Dries Buytaert wrote:
2. a better adminsitration theme and/or
I don't think we should have a separate administration theme, but a separate administration themeable function, in parallel to theme_page() and theme_maintenance_page().
This could solve the blocks issue by making a hard-coded administration block region which is only used by the administration themeable function.
-- Neil Drumm http://delocalizedham.com/
Op zondag 6 augustus 2006 10:42, schreef Konstantin Käfer:
Why would you need this? You can easily define an "admin" blocks section and fill your admin-only blocks in there. Regular users don't see it as they don't have the permissions to see the block. Optionally, you can restrict these blocks to only show up on certain pages with Drupal's built-in features.
Yea, I don't like te idea either. It introduces rather limiting new technology for something tha can be solved with the current technology in a far better/more flexible way. We then need to define (hardcode) what is considered admin, too, also not a good option. Lets be pragmatic and get a nice admin theme out, then we'll see from there how to improve that. -- [ End-user Drupal services and hosting | Sympal.nl ] Layoutkeuze, de stap voordat je gaat (laten) ontwerpen.: http://help.sympal.nl/layoutkeuze_de_stap_voordat_je_gaat_laten_ontwerpen
Moshe Weitzman wrote:
Rowan Kerr wrote:
I would say the biggest single improvement for any dedicated admin theme is removing all the extraneous blocks, navigation, etc from the page and only providing the common site header (or a minimal version of it with logo and site_name), and the admin menu links.
-Rowan
i agree. i would actually like for theme('page') to be enhanced so that any page can declare itself as block free. this would override settings in block admin. the use case is panels.module - http://drupal.org/project/panels ... there might be other ways to achieve this too.
Excellent idea! Sometimes it makes sense to have "single purpose" pages amongst the more general pages on a site. Admin seems like a good candidate, and providing a way for other modules to specify their pages this way is a good option to give to developers.
Gerhard Killesreiter schrieb:
Bèr Kessels wrote:
Op donderdag 3 augustus 2006 16:37, schreef Earl Miles:
I completely agree. While I don't think a new admin theme will happen before the code freeze, I have every belief that a good, sexy, solid admin theme *is* doable, and the question is finding the right person to design one.
I really beleive this a case of "Just Do It".
making such a theme has been on my todo for a long time, but I lack he time/money (and pressure) to actualy get to it. :)
I maybe can help out with the pressure. }|->>
And maybe I can help with tow little suggestions [1]. The styles are not ready yet (icon needs work, display in IE, etc.) but it could be used as a base idea. [1] http://dev.borchert.cc/drupal/style/
Stefan Borchert wrote:
And maybe I can help with tow little suggestions [1]. The styles are not ready yet (icon needs work, display in IE, etc.) but it could be used as a base idea.
Nice, though the Druplicon is kind of aliased. Maybe it's because he's meant to be on a white background. The colors are pretty nice, and I like the white-on-blue with semi-shadowed border look. It's fairly simple.
Earl Miles schrieb:
Stefan Borchert wrote:
And maybe I can help with two little suggestions [1]. The styles are not ready yet (icon needs work, display in IE, etc.) but it could be used as a base idea.
Nice, though the Druplicon is kind of aliased. Maybe it's because he's meant to be on a white background.
Jup. I just take it and replaced the white background by the blue I used for the header. Someone who really can handle graphics should rework this.
The colors are pretty nice, and I like the white-on-blue with semi-shadowed border look. It's fairly simple. Thanks ;-) Perhaps the help block could be collapsible (or collapsed by default)...
Frando (Franz Heinzmann) wrote:
I think we should create a new administration theme. The time of bluemarine is - in my eyes - over.
Admin theme: 1. Make hook_menu() able to define menu blocks. Use that for the devel module and the admin menu. 2. Add a admin_page() themeable function which is called on anything under /admin. This would be parallel to theme_page() and theme_maintenance_page(). Add a hard-coded administration block region to contain the admin menu made in step 1. 3. Put admin CSS in a separate CSS file from drupal.css. 4. Remove the admin theme setting. Bluemarine refresh: 1. Replace the flat Druplicon default icon with the cell-shaded one. 2. Throw in a tableless layout. 3. Saturate the light blue colors a bit. 4. Add whitespace. 5. Improve the fonts a bit. 6. Repeat in 1-2 years or as needed. All HTML changes (with the exception of the tableless layout) should not be implemented in our default theme. They should be implemented in the default themeable functions. No, I'm not volunteering for this since I need to be reviewing your patches for the next month instead. -- Neil Drumm http://delocalizedham.com/
participants (19)
-
Adrian Rossouw -
Adrian Simmons -
Bèr Kessels -
Chris Johnson -
Dries Buytaert -
Dries Buytaert -
Earl Miles -
Farsheed -
Frando (Franz Heinzmann) -
Gerhard Killesreiter -
Jeff Eaton -
Konstantin Käfer -
Mark Hope -
Morbus Iff -
Moshe Weitzman -
Neil Drumm -
Rowan Kerr -
Stefan Borchert -
Stefan Nagtegaal