Drupal 5.0 will be the first Drupal that includes some CSS3. Several people have brought up concerns or 'bug reports' about this. Facts: - CSS3 is a huge standard which is still in draft form, although many parts of it haven't been changed in the past couple of years. It consists of several modules, which are usually independent from each other. - Several parts of CSS3 are already well supported by some (e.g. 'display') or even all the major browsers (e.g. 'opacity'). - CSS has always clearly specified how parsers are to deal with unknown styles. e.g. Setting "bunnies: fluffy" or "display: foobar" should not have any effect in any modern browser, as it is not part of any CSS standard. Both rules are treated as if they weren't there at all. - The W3C provides a CSS3 option in their CSS validator, showing that they promote active use of the spec. With that in mind, I'd like to set an official policy on CSS3 in Drupal, namely that we allow it. By definition, it should not cause any problems in older browsers, and it can be used to provide extra UI cues (opacity for disabled items) or nice style enhancements (e.g. text-shadow in Garland, for Safari). The only big problem for now is that some of the CSS3 throws a warning in Firefox's debug log (e.g. "display: inline-block" in core). While annoying, this is IMO Firefox' fault, not ours. Especially because Firefox is happy to accept the other CSS3 in Garland (e.g. "opacity: 0.5"). It is also only visible if you have some sort of development tools active. It seems most of the reactions against this are knee-jerk: "Drupal doesn't care about valid CSS" or "What's this scary error message?". IMO this is the price to pay for progress. Drupal is still sticking to a standard, and one which has real-world implementations. Objections? :P Steven Wittens
Oh and extra about Firefox/Mozilla/Gecko: Several CSS3 parts are modeled after existing browser extensions. Mozilla for example has a range of "-moz" styles that are experimental. Opacity used to be "-moz-opacity", but support for the CSS3 "opacity" attribute was added explicitly somewhere in 1.x. "border-radius" does not yet work, and you still have to use "-moz- border-radius". This is IMO another good reason to use CSS3, as Mozilla is actively incorporating it into the browser, in accordance with the draft spec and other browser usage. Steven Wittens
On 1/3/07, Steven Wittens <steven@acko.net> wrote:
Drupal 5.0 will be the first Drupal that includes some CSS3. Several people have brought up concerns or 'bug reports' about this.
I am no CSS guru, nor do I play one on TV. With that in mind, I'd like to set an official policy on CSS3 in
Drupal, namely that we allow it. By definition, it should not cause any problems in older browsers
If it would not cause any problems, then I am all for it. However, the devil is in the details. See below. The only big problem for now is that some of the CSS3 throws a
warning in Firefox's debug log (e.g. "display: inline-block" in core). While annoying, this is IMO Firefox' fault, not ours.
In general, such a warning is harmless, and I can live with it. Others may be more picky though. What I don't like is the reasoning ("their fault nor ours") when it comes to the web and internet. The internet is composed of many parts, and our part (drupal) has to be displayed within the parts of others (Firefox, IE, ...etc.) We can't just say that this is not our problem and leave the user out in the cold. We have done so in the past, but corrected our mistakes (e.g. the <base href="..."> thing, various MS IE ugliness, ...etc.) We cannot fix the faults of other software, but we will have to live with them for the time being. The least we could do here is a) document this, and b) file a bug with Firefox and see what they say. Especially because Firefox is happy to accept the other CSS3 in
Garland (e.g. "opacity: 0.5"). It is also only visible if you have some sort of development tools active.
What sort of development tool triggers that? devel module?
What sort of development tool triggers that? devel module?
No, you need a Firefox extension such as Firebug or Webdeveloper Toolbar. I think you might be able to go to the console using a special about: url too, I'm not sure. Point is: this only affects developers, so that's why we should tell the developers that it's actually CSS3 and not a bug. My goal is certainly to document this, but at least we should agree on this first :). Steven Wittens
On 1/3/07, Steven Wittens <steven@acko.net> wrote:
What sort of development tool triggers that? devel module?
No, you need a Firefox extension such as Firebug or Webdeveloper Toolbar. I think you might be able to go to the console using a special about: url too, I'm not sure. Point is: this only affects developers, so that's why we should tell the developers that it's actually CSS3 and not a bug.
I have Firebug installed, and never noticed this one on any 5.0 site I worked with or visited (including the recently upgraded groups.d.o). So, I think this can be ignored. My goal is certainly to document this, but at least we should agree
on this first :).
If it is not visible to end users, then I don't care. I objected to the reasoning rather than the specific bug. I guess this means I agree.
Quoting Steven Wittens <steven@acko.net>:
What sort of development tool triggers that? devel module?
No, you need a Firefox extension such as Firebug or Webdeveloper Toolbar.
Actually, nothing more than delivered in a standard FF install, JavaScript Console (JSC). The JSC displays it as an error not as a warning. Steven, you've convenced me. I'll agree and discuss other points back in the issue. BTW, Mozilla doesn't display this error, while Firefox does. Earnie
On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 18:30 -0800, Steven Wittens wrote:
Drupal 5.0 will be the first Drupal that includes some CSS3. Several people have brought up concerns or 'bug reports' about this.
Facts:
- CSS3 is a huge standard which is still in draft form, although many parts of it haven't been changed in the past couple of years. It consists of several modules, which are usually independent from each other.
- Several parts of CSS3 are already well supported by some (e.g. 'display') or even all the major browsers (e.g. 'opacity').
- CSS has always clearly specified how parsers are to deal with unknown styles. e.g. Setting "bunnies: fluffy" or "display: foobar" should not have any effect in any modern browser, as it is not part of any CSS standard. Both rules are treated as if they weren't there at all.
- The W3C provides a CSS3 option in their CSS validator, showing that they promote active use of the spec.
With that in mind, I'd like to set an official policy on CSS3 in Drupal, namely that we allow it. By definition, it should not cause any problems in older browsers, and it can be used to provide extra UI cues (opacity for disabled items) or nice style enhancements (e.g. text-shadow in Garland, for Safari).
The only big problem for now is that some of the CSS3 throws a warning in Firefox's debug log (e.g. "display: inline-block" in core). While annoying, this is IMO Firefox' fault, not ours. Especially because Firefox is happy to accept the other CSS3 in Garland (e.g. "opacity: 0.5"). It is also only visible if you have some sort of development tools active.
It seems most of the reactions against this are knee-jerk: "Drupal doesn't care about valid CSS" or "What's this scary error message?". IMO this is the price to pay for progress. Drupal is still sticking to a standard, and one which has real-world implementations.
Objections? :P
Steven Wittens
I have none. Maybe if people start using it, adoption and ratification process will accelerate. I would like to see that happen myself. .darrel.
Hi, Darrel O'Pry wrote:
On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 18:30 -0800, Steven Wittens wrote:
Drupal 5.0 will be the first Drupal that includes some CSS3. Several people have brought up concerns or 'bug reports' about this.
...
IMO this is the price to pay for progress. Drupal is still sticking to a standard, and one which has real-world implementations.
Objections? :P
Steven Wittens
I have none. Maybe if people start using it, adoption and ratification process will accelerate. I would like to see that happen myself.
I am of the same feeling. If we (web developers) show a use for these new specifications, then the W3C is more likely to move faster in setting them as standard. Also with the fact that as of firefox 3 (the current dev tree) 3 of the 4 major browsers will be ACID2 compliant (Opera, Safari, and in dev Firefox) we should be starting to push the css standards more where it doesn't break that other browser. Gordon.
Objections? :P
None from me. Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with forthcoming comments. -- Morbus Iff ( shower your women, i'm coming ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
On 04 Jan 2007, at 03:30, Steven Wittens wrote:
It seems most of the reactions against this are knee-jerk: "Drupal doesn't care about valid CSS" or "What's this scary error message?". IMO this is the price to pay for progress. Drupal is still sticking to a standard, and one which has real-world implementations.
I'm perfectly OK with using the latest web technologies as long it doesn't leave too many people in the cold. As this doesn't appear to be the case, using (a subset of) CSS3 seems perfectly valid. -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Op donderdag 4 januari 2007 03:30, schreef Steven Wittens:
Objections? :P None. A big +1 for this initiative!
One thing to keep in mind though. Example: drop shadow works in Konqueror and safari. Quite often did I come across (plone) sites that have text-shadow, but were apparently hacked by a clueless designer with only firefox or IE at disposal: the text is unreadable in konq. The "advanced" elements are invisible for many "designers" hence these designers are not even aware of them: resulting in awful, or unreadable sites for those with browsers that do support them. I don't know how to deal with this, though, maybe just filing bugs against themes with those problems would do? Bèr -- Drupal, Ruby on Rails and Joomla! development: webschuur.com | Drupal hosting: www.sympal.nl
Well, I'm 100% for standards compliance - but actual standards. I have no problem with themes including stylesheets that push the envelope a bit (to use CSS3) - but if a stylesheet is included with a core module then it should be compliant with the current standard. to summarize: Themes - use whatever styles they want (valid or not) Modules - validated css to current standard In any case CORE functionality or usability should not rely on on CSS3. andre Steven Wittens wrote:
Drupal 5.0 will be the first Drupal that includes some CSS3. Several people have brought up concerns or 'bug reports' about this.
Facts:
- CSS3 is a huge standard which is still in draft form, although many parts of it haven't been changed in the past couple of years. It consists of several modules, which are usually independent from each other.
- Several parts of CSS3 are already well supported by some (e.g. 'display') or even all the major browsers (e.g. 'opacity').
- CSS has always clearly specified how parsers are to deal with unknown styles. e.g. Setting "bunnies: fluffy" or "display: foobar" should not have any effect in any modern browser, as it is not part of any CSS standard. Both rules are treated as if they weren't there at all.
- The W3C provides a CSS3 option in their CSS validator, showing that they promote active use of the spec.
With that in mind, I'd like to set an official policy on CSS3 in Drupal, namely that we allow it. By definition, it should not cause any problems in older browsers, and it can be used to provide extra UI cues (opacity for disabled items) or nice style enhancements (e.g. text-shadow in Garland, for Safari).
The only big problem for now is that some of the CSS3 throws a warning in Firefox's debug log (e.g. "display: inline-block" in core). While annoying, this is IMO Firefox' fault, not ours. Especially because Firefox is happy to accept the other CSS3 in Garland (e.g. "opacity: 0.5"). It is also only visible if you have some sort of development tools active.
It seems most of the reactions against this are knee-jerk: "Drupal doesn't care about valid CSS" or "What's this scary error message?". IMO this is the price to pay for progress. Drupal is still sticking to a standard, and one which has real-world implementations.
Objections? :P
Steven Wittens
In any case CORE functionality or usability should not rely on on CSS3.
Well, core uses CSS3 now, but it does not rely on it. For example, in Garland, disabled menu items are shown transparent in the admin, but there is still the text "(disabled)" (or similar) as well. The transparency is just a nice extra indicator. Obviously we should make sure all CSS3 gracefully degrades. Steven Wittens
On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 21:30:22 -0500, Steven Wittens <steven@acko.net> wrote:
Drupal 5.0 will be the first Drupal that includes some CSS3. Several people have brought up concerns or 'bug reports' about this.
Facts:
- CSS3 is a huge standard which is still in draft form, although many parts of it haven't been changed in the past couple of years. It consists of several modules, which are usually independent from each other.
Indeed. In fact, many of the modules are already Candidate Recommendations[1], meaning browser vendors are encouraged to implement them.
With that in mind, I'd like to set an official policy on CSS3 in Drupal, namely that we allow it. By definition, it should not cause any problems in older browsers, and it can be used to provide extra UI cues (opacity for disabled items) or nice style enhancements (e.g. text-shadow in Garland, for Safari).
I'd like some additional guidelines: 1) Any CSS styling used (CSS3 or otherwise) should degrade gracefully, as you suggested later in this thread 2) Only styles supported by 2/4 of the top rendering engines (Gecko (Mozilla), WebKit (Safari), Trident (IE), and Presto (Opera)) should be used 2b) No browser-specific ("-vendor" prefix styling should be used) 3) Only styles in a spec. that is a CR, PR, or REC or has previously reached any of those states should be used (for instance, CSS 2.1 is currently in Last Call, but has previously been a CR). This would include CSS3 Colors, Selectors, Media Queries, etc. See http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work for a list of current module states [1] http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr#RecsCR -- Tim Altman
participants (10)
-
Andre Molnar -
Bèr Kessels -
Darrel O'Pry -
Dries Buytaert -
Earnie Boyd -
Gordon Heydon -
Khalid B -
Morbus Iff -
Steven Wittens -
Tim Altman