Cloud pricing estimates
I am a free-lance web developer who often is asked to help people pick a hosting company. I believe cloud hosting is becoming mature and robust enough to seriously recommend it. In order for me to be able to give some reasonable recommendations, is there some way to estimate what their current usage is? Most of my customers currently use cPanel driven sites with pretty much standard tracking apps on them. Is there anything in one of those apps that would give me an idea of what they might cost when moved to the cloud? Nancy Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
Ms. Nancy Wichmann <mailto:nan_wich@bellsouth.net> June 3, 2011 7:13 PM
I am a free-lance web developer who often is asked to help people pick a hosting company. I believe cloud hosting is becoming mature and robust enough to seriously recommend it. In order for me to be able to give some reasonable recommendations, is there some way to estimate what their current usage is? Most of my customers currently use cPanel driven sites with pretty much standard tracking apps on them. Is there anything in one of those apps that would give me an idea of what they might cost when moved to the cloud?
Hi Nancy -- In the cPanel UI look for "stats". You'll probably find the choices Webalizer and Analog. In the Webalizer stats you'll find a rough idea of bandwidth consumption if you add up all the days in a given month. If you can connect to the account via ssh I'm pretty sure there's a command you can run to tally the total size of the account's home or public_html directory (sorry I wouldn't know the command myself but I could swear I looked it up once and found it, then promptly forgot it). However, cPanel is likely running within WHM, which is the admin tool used on a server or VPS that doles out cPanel domains on the server. If your clients have a VPS or private server they ought to also have access to the overall server control panel at an address like https://servername.domain.com:2087 (you'll need to know the root login to access this). In WHM if you use the "Find" field in the upper l-h corner to filter the menus and type in "usage" you'll see various choices though not all are broken out on a per-domain basis if you need that. You can get bandwidth consumption by domain (without having to add up daily values), file space usage, etc. hope that helps! kazar
I usually get Webalizer, Awstats, and analog. Yes, I get bandwidth, hits, pages, and all that good stuff. But not any kind of time number, which they all charge by. I suppose I could make a reasonable guess at page time and multiply by that. Nancy Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
________________________________ From: adept techlists - kazar
In the cPanel UI look for "stats". You'll probably find the choices Webalizer and Analog. In the Webalizer stats you'll find a rough idea of bandwidth consumption if you add up all the days in a given month. If you can connect to the account via ssh I'm pretty sure there's a command you can run to tally the total size of the account's home or public_html directory (sorry I wouldn't know the command myself but I could swear I looked it up once and found it, then promptly forgot it).
However, cPanel is likely running within WHM, which is the admin tool used on a server or VPS that doles out cPanel domains on the server. If your clients have a VPS or private server they ought to also have access to the overall server control panel at an address like https://servername.domain.com:2087(you'll need to know the root login to access this).
Ah, so you mean how to estimate, for example, EC2 on-demand instances. Sorry I gave you lots of info you didn't need! I have read those price matrices and I admit to being totally clueless as to what an "instance" is. If someone loads up a page that leaves them connected as a seat on your database, and they type a word into a formfield, and they go on vacation for 3 weeks, is that an "instance"? (Rhetorical question, I no longer have room for this sorta stuff in my head and just hire the gals & guys who take care of that part of a job) kazar
adept techlists - kazar <mailto:techlists@ade.pt> June 4, 2011 10:44 PM
If someone loads up a page that leaves them connected as a seat on your database, and they type a word into a formfield, and they go on vacation for 3 weeks, is that an "instance"? ( I meant "is that a 3-week-long instance" ... which could get pretty darn expensive if you ever have a db admin who forgets to set the pref for "disconnect guest when idle for __ minutes" and then even though no EC2 resources are being consumed whatsoever, Amazon will still charge you by the hour for that seat. I really don't get charging for server space by "time" rather than by actual resources consumed.
again, don't put yourself out explaining unless you really want to, I'm just musing here. kazar
I would expect an Instance to be a virtual server instance, complete with lamp stack etc, where would I go to get one, any idea? Warren Vail _____ From: support-bounces@drupal.org [mailto:support-bounces@drupal.org] On Behalf Of adept techlists - kazar Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 7:48 PM To: support@drupal.org; Ms. Nancy Wichmann Subject: Re: [support] Cloud pricing estimates adept techlists - kazar <mailto:techlists@ade.pt> June 4, 2011 10:44 PM If someone loads up a page that leaves them connected as a seat on your database, and they type a word into a formfield, and they go on vacation for 3 weeks, is that an "instance"? ( I meant "is that a 3-week-long instance" ... which could get pretty darn expensive if you ever have a db admin who forgets to set the pref for "disconnect guest when idle for __ minutes" and then even though no EC2 resources are being consumed whatsoever, Amazon will still charge you by the hour for that seat. I really don't get charging for server space by "time" rather than by actual resources consumed. again, don't put yourself out explaining unless you really want to, I'm just musing here. kazar
The host I have dealt with gives you the first one when you sign up; others were available through their maintenance functions. In a cPanel/WHM environment, I assume that each WHM account is an instance. Nancy Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
________________________________ From: Warren Vail
I would expect an Instance to be a virtual server instance, complete with lamp stack etc, where would I go to get one, any idea?
Hello Nancy and all. Very interesting subject. To teell the truth I did not know anythind about cloud services until you all bring the thread . I do not know if it is again the rules of the list, but would you mind sharing the Url of the companies your all are working. The one sent looks really promising . I am just wondering , maybe for the lack of knowledge, if it is real an advantage to have a service like that now . Yes, I know "cloud" is what all are talking about ... Thanks to all and have a nice day. Jorge Biquez At 06:19 a.m. 05/06/2011, you wrote:
The host I have dealt with gives you the first one when you sign up; others were available through their maintenance functions. In a cPanel/WHM environment, I assume that each WHM account is an instance.
Nancy
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
From: Warren Vail
I would expect an Instance to be a virtual server instance, complete with lamp stack etc, where would I go to get one, any idea?
-- [ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]
I would think the details of a specific service should be on the hosting list. Personally, I have only worked on one cloud service and I would not recommend it. I asked about this because I have customers who ask about hosting and want to be prepared next time one asks. Nancy Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
________________________________ From: Jorge Biquez
I do not know if it is again the rules of the list, but would you mind sharing the Url of the companies your all are working.
Hello Nancy. I am very interested also, here that technology will take time to gain confidence in clients but I woulld like to know more and be ready when that happens. Do you see it is really an advantage , actually to use it? I sure think that maybe you could have a better uptime on the servers since are several behind, but you can have that if you have a cluster of them.... In reality , do you think is more expensive? WITHOUT telling the name of the company you have not good experience. It is not a matter of damage their name.... what are the reasons that make you think they are not an option? Have a nice day. Jorge Biquez At 01:08 p.m. 05/06/2011, you wrote:
I would think the details of a specific service should be on the hosting list. Personally, I have only worked on one cloud service and I would not recommend it. I asked about this because I have customers who ask about hosting and want to be prepared next time one asks.
Nancy
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
From: Jorge Biquez
I do not know if it is again the rules of the list, but would you mind sharing the Url of the companies your all are working.
-- [ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]
I am very interested also, here that technology will take time to gain confidence in clients but I woulld like to know more and be ready when that happens.
Do you see it is really an advantage , actually to use it? I sure think that maybe you could have a better uptime on the servers since are several behind, but you can have that if you have a cluster of them....
I don't know what the big deal is with cloud hosting. I used one and it cost a bit more than shared hosting and the performance was WORSE than a certain shared host that I used. It's not as though it's something new and different for a small or medium site. Unless your site needs more resources than one dedicated server, I don't see any advantage to the "cloud" where the idea is that it can grow to multiple machines. Unless I am missing something.... Fred
I won't name the company because of possible damage to the customer's relationship with the company. As for uptime, in two months, there were two outages. That surprised me a lot. There should be advantages in reliability (uptime) and scalability (many servers) and speed (geographic diversity). I can't say that I have seen any evidence in my minimal exposure that any of that actually happens. I get very concerned any time a hosting company says they will give me, for example, 25% of a CPU. For easy arithmetic, let's say the server runs a 3.2 GHz CPU. One fourth of that is 800 MHz; would you buy an 800 MHz machine to run Drupal? Most current laptops are much faster than that, and my 7 year old desktop is faster still, and Drupal can be slow on it. The same is true of VPS's too. There is a lot of promise in the cloud and the technology is maturing every day, but I think the hosting companies need to mature with it. With quad-cores, and larger, fueling the cloud there simply is no need to offer a fraction of a CPU. Nancy Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
________________________________ From: Jorge Biquez
Do you see it is really an advantage , actually to use it? I sure think that maybe you could have a better uptime on the servers since are several behind, but you can have that if you have a cluster of them....
In reality , do you think is more expensive?
WITHOUT telling the name of the company you have not good experience. It is not a matter of damage their name.... what are the reasons that make you think they are not an option?
On 6/5/2011 3:32 PM, Ms. Nancy Wichmann wrote:
I won't name the company because of possible damage to the customer's relationship with the company.
As for uptime, in two months, there were two outages. That surprised me a lot.
There should be advantages in reliability (uptime) and scalability (many servers) and speed (geographic diversity). I can't say that I have seen any evidence in my minimal exposure that any of that actually happens.
I get very concerned any time a hosting company says they will give me, for example, 25% of *a* CPU. For easy arithmetic, let's say the server runs a 3.2 GHz CPU. One fourth of that is 800 MHz; would you buy an /800 MHz/ machine to run Drupal? as far as I know it doesn't work that way. 25% of CPU means 25% of the processing time belongs to you. even somebody on the same machine runs heavy report it will never take a 1% of yours 25%. also, I believe, if other sites are on "low ride", and you run some heavy stuff - you'll be able to boost to even 50% of CPU.
Most current laptops are much faster than that, and my 7 year old desktop is faster still, and Drupal can be slow on it. The same is true of VPS's too.
There is a lot of promise in the cloud and the technology is maturing every day, but I think the hosting companies need to mature with it. With quad-cores, and larger, fueling the cloud there simply is no need to offer a fraction of a CPU. /*Nancy*/
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* Jorge Biquez
Do you see it is really an advantage , actually to use it? I sure think that maybe you could have a better uptime on the servers since are several behind, but you can have that if you have a cluster of them....
In reality , do you think is more expensive?
WITHOUT telling the name of the company you have not good experience. It is not a matter of damage their name.... what are the reasons that make you think they are not an option?
I have actually seen hosts that say that's all you get - no overages. I guess it's a way to discourage heavy use. But on cloud hosting where "time" is a billing factor, it also increases your bill since that 1 second transaction now takes 4 seconds. Nancy Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
________________________________ From: Afan Pasalic
as far as I know it doesn't work that way. 25% of CPU means 25% of the processing time belongs to you. even somebody on the same machine runs heavy report it will never take a 1% of yours 25%. also, I believe, if other sites are on "low ride", and you run some heavy stuff - you'll be able to boost to even 50% of CPU.
Ms. Nancy Wichmann wrote:
There should be advantages in reliability (uptime) and scalability (many servers) and speed (geographic diversity). I can't say that I have seen any evidence in my minimal exposure that any of that actually happens.
I don't see this happening ever because of the expense cost to price ratio unless you go with someone like Google or some other equally large company and then the price to income ratio will hit you big time. Really, I would suggest that your client look to dedicated servers when they can afford it. The two dedicated servers can be cloud enabled for their use. The benefit of cloud for the lessor priced hosting providers is to themselves. They don't have to work as hard to provide you with the same services and can propagate the work via cloud technology to other equipment when one becomes overloaded. It is also a name thrower for clout advertising. Everyone must do as they're neighbor does kind of thing. It's new, and sounds exciting so I must have it which makes it misused and abused. -- Earnie -- http://progw.com -- http://www.for-my-kids.com
IMO A huge benefit is being able to upsize memory and processor only when necessary. That is not possible with a dedicated server. * Ryan LeTulle*
bayousoft <http://twitter.com/bayousoft> -twitter
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Earnie Boyd <earnie@users.sourceforge.net>wrote:
Ms. Nancy Wichmann wrote:
There should be advantages in reliability (uptime) and scalability (many servers) and speed (geographic diversity). I can't say that I have seen any evidence in my minimal exposure that any of that actually happens.
I don't see this happening ever because of the expense cost to price ratio unless you go with someone like Google or some other equally large company and then the price to income ratio will hit you big time. Really, I would suggest that your client look to dedicated servers when they can afford it. The two dedicated servers can be cloud enabled for their use.
The benefit of cloud for the lessor priced hosting providers is to themselves. They don't have to work as hard to provide you with the same services and can propagate the work via cloud technology to other equipment when one becomes overloaded. It is also a name thrower for clout advertising. Everyone must do as they're neighbor does kind of thing. It's new, and sounds exciting so I must have it which makes it misused and abused.
-- Earnie -- http://progw.com -- http://www.for-my-kids.com -- [ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]
Ryan LeTulle wrote:
IMO A huge benefit is being able to upsize memory and processor only when necessary.
That is not possible with a dedicated server.
You must not have read:
they can afford it. The two dedicated servers can be cloud enabled for their use.
If the cost of the cloud service is by time then it can quickly become more than the cost of a dedicated server depending on use of course. But if you're not using it much then you don't need cloud services anyway and if you are using it much then two dedicated servers that act as your dedicated cloud is more beneficial. -- Earnie -- http://progw.com -- http://www.for-my-kids.com
Nope I read and understood: I've not seen what you describe occur in practice. In my experience the costs of a dedicated server are much higher than cloud. I run both. * Ryan LeTulle*
bayousoft <http://twitter.com/bayousoft> -twitter
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Earnie Boyd <earnie@users.sourceforge.net>wrote:
Ryan LeTulle wrote:
IMO A huge benefit is being able to upsize memory and processor only when necessary.
That is not possible with a dedicated server.
You must not have read:
they can afford it. The two dedicated servers can be cloud enabled for their use.
If the cost of the cloud service is by time then it can quickly become more than the cost of a dedicated server depending on use of course. But if you're not using it much then you don't need cloud services anyway and if you are using it much then two dedicated servers that act as your dedicated cloud is more beneficial.
-- Earnie -- http://progw.com -- http://www.for-my-kids.com
For me there are other costs associated with dedicated like backing up, co-location fees etc. These are what drive the cost up. * Ryan LeTulle*
bayousoft <http://twitter.com/bayousoft> -twitter
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Ryan LeTulle <bayousoft@gmail.com> wrote:
Nope I read and understood:
I've not seen what you describe occur in practice. In my experience the costs of a dedicated server are much higher than cloud. I run both. *
Ryan LeTulle*
bayousoft <http://twitter.com/bayousoft> -twitter
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Earnie Boyd <earnie@users.sourceforge.net>wrote:
Ryan LeTulle wrote:
IMO A huge benefit is being able to upsize memory and processor only when necessary.
That is not possible with a dedicated server.
You must not have read:
they can afford it. The two dedicated servers can be cloud enabled for their use.
If the cost of the cloud service is by time then it can quickly become more than the cost of a dedicated server depending on use of course. But if you're not using it much then you don't need cloud services anyway and if you are using it much then two dedicated servers that act as your dedicated cloud is more beneficial.
-- Earnie -- http://progw.com -- http://www.for-my-kids.com
I've also not used Amazon. My cloud experience is with a local company and there pricing is *not* based on time. * Ryan LeTulle*
bayousoft <http://twitter.com/bayousoft> -twitter
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 10:00 AM, Ryan LeTulle <bayousoft@gmail.com> wrote:
For me there are other costs associated with dedicated like backing up, co-location fees etc. These are what drive the cost up. *
Ryan LeTulle*
bayousoft <http://twitter.com/bayousoft> -twitter
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Ryan LeTulle <bayousoft@gmail.com> wrote:
Nope I read and understood:
I've not seen what you describe occur in practice. In my experience the costs of a dedicated server are much higher than cloud. I run both. *
Ryan LeTulle*
bayousoft <http://twitter.com/bayousoft> -twitter
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Earnie Boyd <earnie@users.sourceforge.net
wrote:
Ryan LeTulle wrote:
IMO A huge benefit is being able to upsize memory and processor only when necessary.
That is not possible with a dedicated server.
You must not have read:
they can afford it. The two dedicated servers can be cloud enabled for their use.
If the cost of the cloud service is by time then it can quickly become more than the cost of a dedicated server depending on use of course. But if you're not using it much then you don't need cloud services anyway and if you are using it much then two dedicated servers that act as your dedicated cloud is more beneficial.
-- Earnie -- http://progw.com -- http://www.for-my-kids.com
If I didn't have access to a local company I would probably use Slicehost. * Ryan LeTulle*
bayousoft <http://twitter.com/bayousoft> -twitter
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Ryan LeTulle <bayousoft@gmail.com> wrote:
I've also not used Amazon. My cloud experience is with a local company and there pricing is *not* based on time. *
Ryan LeTulle*
bayousoft <http://twitter.com/bayousoft> -twitter
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 10:00 AM, Ryan LeTulle <bayousoft@gmail.com> wrote:
For me there are other costs associated with dedicated like backing up, co-location fees etc. These are what drive the cost up. *
Ryan LeTulle*
bayousoft <http://twitter.com/bayousoft> -twitter
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Ryan LeTulle <bayousoft@gmail.com> wrote:
Nope I read and understood:
I've not seen what you describe occur in practice. In my experience the costs of a dedicated server are much higher than cloud. I run both. *
Ryan LeTulle*
bayousoft <http://twitter.com/bayousoft> -twitter
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Earnie Boyd < earnie@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
Ryan LeTulle wrote:
IMO A huge benefit is being able to upsize memory and processor only when necessary.
That is not possible with a dedicated server.
You must not have read:
they can afford it. The two dedicated servers can be cloud enabled for their use.
If the cost of the cloud service is by time then it can quickly become more than the cost of a dedicated server depending on use of course. But if you're not using it much then you don't need cloud services anyway and if you are using it much then two dedicated servers that act as your dedicated cloud is more beneficial.
-- Earnie -- http://progw.com -- http://www.for-my-kids.com
From my dealings with a cloud host on a recent account, my understanding of "instance" is that it is basically the same as a virtual machine, but because it can be anywhere in the cloud it's not quite the same.
Since Drupal "goes away" after serving the page, I don't think one need worry about the user leaving the page, even if it is in the middle of a dialog. The "time" component is, I assume, a measure of CPU consumption, so it would be considered a valid measure of resource usage. While we used to track that back in my mainframe days, I haven't seen any stats program that does it today. Nancy Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
________________________________ From: adept techlists - kazar <techlists@ade.pt> To: support@drupal.org; Ms. Nancy Wichmann <nan_wich@bellsouth.net> Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 10:44 PM Subject: Re: [support] Cloud pricing estimates
Ah, so you mean how to estimate, for example, EC2 on-demand instances. Sorry I gave you lots of info you didn't need!
I have read those price matrices and I admit to being totally clueless as to what an "instance" is. If someone loads up a page that leaves them connected as a seat on your database, and they type a word into a formfield, and they go on vacation for 3 weeks, is that an "instance"? (Rhetorical question, I no longer have room for this sorta stuff in my head and just hire the gals & guys who take care of that part of a job)
kazar -- [ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]
participants (8)
-
adept techlists - kazar -
Afan Pasalic -
Earnie Boyd -
Fred Jones -
Jorge Biquez -
Ms. Nancy Wichmann -
Ryan LeTulle -
Warren Vail