Hello, here is a list of the top-5 patches I'd like us to see focus on: 1. Simplified CCK into core: http://drupal.org/user/15277 2. Clean up settings page: http://drupal.org/node/72284 3. Reorganize administration pages: http://drupal.org/node/72079 4. The template work that Adrian and Vlado have been working on: no patch yet 5. A new core theme: no patch yet More or less 1.5 months to go until the code freeze. In practice this will be less, because it is impossible to commit 5 big patches during the last week. And even if it is possible, I'm not likely to do that. -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
On 07 Jul 2006, at 15:49, Dries Buytaert wrote:
Hello,
here is a list of the top-5 patches I'd like us to see focus on:
1. Simplified CCK into core: http://drupal.org/user/15277 2. Clean up settings page: http://drupal.org/node/72284 3. Reorganize administration pages: http://drupal.org/node/72079 4. The template work that Adrian and Vlado have been working on: no patch yet 5. A new core theme: no patch yet
6. Install system. The install system is obviously very high in my list; in the top-3 even. :-) -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Op vrijdag 7 juli 2006 15:51, schreef Dries Buytaert:
5. A new core theme: no patch yet
What kind of theme should that be? I am developing a very SEO- accessible and designer friendly base theme ATM (i.e. in lines of box grey, but without the left-right-center design. In fact, without any Layout CSS, let alone styling CSS). I could aim that at core instead of contribs? Or are we looking for a theme with Bling Bling but is not meant as start-off for designers (i.e., in lines of friendselectric) ? In that case, my base theme is not an option. The theme discussion here: » http://groups.drupal.org/node/928, the links in there contain in depth desicussion. An example (will *not* be released on Drupal) in progress theme built on that base: . Just to show the power of that base theme. Read the source to see the base theme. The example you see there is achieved *only* with CSS. All the rest is that Base Theme. » http://www.vabusiness.us/?q=node The first import, to gather feedback. After I finish my first real theme, I will release the rest of that base theme. After all: It nees to actually work in reality :) » http://cvs.drupal.org/viewcvs/drupal/contributions/themes/whatsinitsname/ Bèr
What about having both in one theme? My suggestion for a new standard core theme would be to have a base html theme that's as universally valid as possible. Then, this html theme will be put into a standard - 3column - layout by layout.css. Both the HTML and the CSS can be used by designers as a starting point. Then, we should have a second CSS file, style.css, that does all the styling, color, background image, .. stuff to make our new default theme look drupalish-unique and maybe even a little fancy (if that's wanted). In other words: 1. "Perfect" HTML scaffold, no tables, content structure over design, can be used as a starting point by designers (and probably will nearly always be used) 2. First CSS file: layout CSS. Still very designer friendly and universal 3. Second CSS file: styling CSS. Makes our theme look great and unique. Will maybe be used in some parts by designers as a source of inspiration. best regards, Frando Bèr Kessels schrieb:
Op vrijdag 7 juli 2006 15:51, schreef Dries Buytaert:
5. A new core theme: no patch yet
What kind of theme should that be?
I am developing a very SEO- accessible and designer friendly base theme ATM (i.e. in lines of box grey, but without the left-right-center design. In fact, without any Layout CSS, let alone styling CSS). I could aim that at core instead of contribs?
Or are we looking for a theme with Bling Bling but is not meant as start-off for designers (i.e., in lines of friendselectric) ? In that case, my base theme is not an option.
The theme discussion here: » http://groups.drupal.org/node/928, the links in there contain in depth desicussion.
An example (will *not* be released on Drupal) in progress theme built on that base: . Just to show the power of that base theme. Read the source to see the base theme. The example you see there is achieved *only* with CSS. All the rest is that Base Theme. » http://www.vabusiness.us/?q=node
The first import, to gather feedback. After I finish my first real theme, I will release the rest of that base theme. After all: It nees to actually work in reality :) » http://cvs.drupal.org/viewcvs/drupal/contributions/themes/whatsinitsname/
Bèr
I support Franz' idea, but I also support a theme that is style-equivalent to Joomla default theme. Something that is corporate, fixed width, "table-layout look and feel" etc. Isn't that the "sexy" that the public want? An example: http://demo.joomla.org/ ...although the demo looks a little screwed up... but you get what I mean. Frando (Franz Heinzmann) wrote:
What about having both in one theme?
My suggestion for a new standard core theme would be to have a base html theme that's as universally valid as possible. Then, this html theme will be put into a standard - 3column - layout by layout.css. Both the HTML and the CSS can be used by designers as a starting point....
<snip>
Frando (Franz Heinzmann) wrote:
What about having both in one theme? In other words:
1. "Perfect" HTML scaffold, no tables, content structure over design, can be used as a starting point by designers (and probably will nearly always be used)
I would like to caution against having no tables in the layout at all. I am working on a site which I laid out with no tables, I spent many hours fighting CSS because of this. I would strongly advocate using a single table to contain the left, content and right columns. I say this even though I am a CSS zealot and have created several non CMS sites which have no tables and would do them no other way. I ended up using a single table in my design because in order to get the footer in the right place the left and right columns were floated. Once you have floated columns you cannot use clear in the content because the content will then clear the columns which is not what you want. You need to be able to use clear in the content so that you can float multiple images to one side and have them appear under on another which requires clear. A CMS needs to be capable of displaying whatever content a user wishes to create in the content column, you cannot achieve this without using a table to layout the columns. Use XHTML 1.0/Transitional and the layout will validate. If you use CSS for the layout then you will be putting restrictions on the mark-up and CSS for the content of the nodes. You may be able to live with those restrictions, but we are talking about a layout for all users here and not everyone will understand the issues and many people will not be able to live with the restrictions the layout imposes on the content. -- Martin Tomes echo 'martin at tomes x org x uk'\ | sed -e 's/ x /\./g' -e 's/ at /@/' Visit http://www.subversionary.org/
I say this even though I am a CSS zealot and have created several non CMS sites which have no tables and would do them no other way. I ended up using a single table in my design because in order to get the footer in the right place the left and right columns were floated. Once you have floated columns you cannot use clear in the content because the content will then clear the columns which is not what you want. You need to be able to use clear in the content so that you can float multiple images to one side and have them appear under on another which requires clear.
Non-sense. The piefecta layout and many others (such as drupal.org itself) are 100% tableless and can accomodate clears in the content. Steven Wittens
Op maandag 10 juli 2006 15:26, schreef Steven Wittens:
Non-sense. The piefecta layout and many others (such as drupal.org itself) are 100% tableless and can accomodate clears in the content.
Whether or not that theme should be tableless or not is a non-discussion. My question was not that, but was whether or not I should work towards/with a core patch, for my *base* (ugly-as-hell) theme, or whether Dries meant with a new core theme, that it should be pretty and appealing? AFAIK it is the latter, am I correct? Bèr
On Mon, 2006-07-10 at 15:26 +0200, Steven Wittens wrote:
I say this even though I am a CSS zealot and have created several non CMS sites which have no tables and would do them no other way. I ended up using a single table in my design because in order to get the footer in the right place the left and right columns were floated. Once you have floated columns you cannot use clear in the content because the content will then clear the columns which is not what you want. You need to be able to use clear in the content so that you can float multiple images to one side and have them appear under on another which requires clear.
Non-sense. The piefecta layout and many others (such as drupal.org itself) are 100% tableless and can accomodate clears in the content.
Steven Wittens
You may need an additional wrapper around you content to constrain the clear, or a parent with position: relative. I can't remember.
I am somewhat a CSS Zealot as well, I understand the frustration with the clears etc. However, What I have done is position my left hand menu as an absolute. This has worked fine for my website and allows me to use clears wherever I want without breaking any styles. I use tables for tabular data and thats it. For example: #outer { text-align:left; background: #c5d5a9; width:760px; margin:auto; border: 1px solid #c5d5a9; } #l-col { position: absolute; font-weight: bold; color: #333333; width: 155px; border-left: 4px solid white; background-color: #F8D583; border-bottom: solid 4px white; } #content_container { margin-left: 155px; border-left: 4px solid white; background-color: #eaeff3; padding: 5px; min-height: 550px; } The drawback is the container (Main body) of the page can be smaller then the menu which I give a min-height for firefox; I have a style sheet which loads if it is IE and it gets a height.... and another style sheet to take away the height if it is IE7. Anyways, it is just an idea! On 7/11/06, Darrel O'Pry <dopry@thing.net> wrote:
On Mon, 2006-07-10 at 15:26 +0200, Steven Wittens wrote:
I say this even though I am a CSS zealot and have created several non CMS sites which have no tables and would do them no other way. I ended up using a single table in my design because in order to get the footer in the right place the left and right columns were floated. Once you have floated columns you cannot use clear in the content because the content will then clear the columns which is not what you want. You need to be able to use clear in the content so that you can float multiple images to one side and have them appear under on another which requires clear.
Non-sense. The piefecta layout and many others (such as drupal.org itself) are 100% tableless and can accomodate clears in the content.
Steven Wittens
You may need an additional wrapper around you content to constrain the clear, or a parent with position: relative. I can't remember.
This is a common problem, but it's definitely possible. In fact, it was just written about recently: http://www.communitymx.com/content/article.cfm?cid=6BC9D "In order to become a skilled CSS developer, you need to understand the underlying concepts of CSS that make it work and not just how to produce certain visual effects. The 'block formatting context' is one of those concepts that drives how CSS affects your page without you even knowing it. Most of the time, you don't need to worry about it; it's just something that's going on behind the scenes that you don't need to get involved with. Sometimes, however, the lack of a new context can make elements interact in undesirable ways. The primary reason for setting a new context is to keep cleared elements inside a main content div from clearing floated sidebars. We'll use this problem as a case study for how to establish new block formatting contexts and to see what their effect is on the other elements around them." The solution is different depending on what kind of (browser) audience you have, but there are definitely alternatives to falling back on a table. --ivan
On 7/11/06, Darrel O'Pry <dopry@thing.net> wrote: On Mon, 2006-07-10 at 15:26 +0200, Steven Wittens wrote:
I say this even though I am a CSS zealot and have created several non CMS sites which have no tables and would do them no other way. I ended up using a single table in my design because in order to get the footer in the right place the left and right columns were floated. Once you have floated columns you cannot use clear in
the
content because the content will then clear the columns which is not what you want. You need to be able to use clear in the content so that you can float multiple images to one side and have them appear under on another which requires clear.
Non-sense. The piefecta layout and many others (such as drupal.org itself) are 100% tableless and can accomodate clears in the content.
Steven Wittens
You may need an additional wrapper around you content to constrain the clear, or a parent with position: relative. I can't remember.
On Tue, 2006-07-11 at 17:04 -0400, Ivan Boothe, Genocide Intervention Network wrote:
This is a common problem, but it's definitely possible. In fact, it was just written about recently:
http://www.communitymx.com/content/article.cfm?cid=6BC9D
"In order to become a skilled CSS developer, you need to understand the underlying concepts of CSS that make it work and not just how to produce certain visual effects. The 'block formatting context' is one of those concepts that drives how CSS affects your page without you even knowing it. Most of the time, you don't need to worry about it; it's just something that's going on behind the scenes that you don't need to get involved with. Sometimes, however, the lack of a new context can make elements interact in undesirable ways. The primary reason for setting a new context is to keep cleared elements inside a main content div from clearing floated sidebars. We'll use this problem as a case study for how to establish new block formatting contexts and to see what their effect is on the other elements around them."
The solution is different depending on what kind of (browser) audience you have, but there are definitely alternatives to falling back on a table.
--ivan
can the css thread move to themes@... I mean this stuff ain't rocket science table-less layouts have been pretty much figured out, and are well documented.
I'm pretty sure it IS possible to create such a layout that even does allow clears in sub-elements. For instance, [1] did so far always work for me. I think we should try to get it working only with css, and if everything fails, a table layout is constructed in not even an hour. regards, frando [1] http://alistapart.com/articles/holygrail Martin Tomes schrieb:
Frando (Franz Heinzmann) wrote:
What about having both in one theme? In other words:
1. "Perfect" HTML scaffold, no tables, content structure over design, can be used as a starting point by designers (and probably will nearly always be used)
I would like to caution against having no tables in the layout at all. I am working on a site which I laid out with no tables, I spent many hours fighting CSS because of this. I would strongly advocate using a single table to contain the left, content and right columns.
I say this even though I am a CSS zealot and have created several non CMS sites which have no tables and would do them no other way. I ended up using a single table in my design because in order to get the footer in the right place the left and right columns were floated. Once you have floated columns you cannot use clear in the content because the content will then clear the columns which is not what you want. You need to be able to use clear in the content so that you can float multiple images to one side and have them appear under on another which requires clear.
A CMS needs to be capable of displaying whatever content a user wishes to create in the content column, you cannot achieve this without using a table to layout the columns. Use XHTML 1.0/Transitional and the layout will validate.
If you use CSS for the layout then you will be putting restrictions on the mark-up and CSS for the content of the nodes. You may be able to live with those restrictions, but we are talking about a layout for all users here and not everyone will understand the issues and many people will not be able to live with the restrictions the layout imposes on the content.
Am Montag, 10. Juli 2006 16:55 schrieb Frando (Franz Heinzmann): [...]
For instance, [1] did so far always work for me. The article on ALA describes a method which doesn't work anymore because of several reasons you may read about here http://positioniseverything.net/articles/onetruelayout/appendix/equalheightp...
I think we should try to get it working only with css, and if everything fails, a table layout is constructed in not even an hour.
regards, frando
That might be true, but as far as I can see only the part that makes the 3 columns have the same height is concerned. The rest of the "holy grail" css (the 3 columns) is still working. Equal heights are normally only needed if the columns need to have a different background that has to reach until the bottom of the page. regards, frando Sanduhrs schrieb:
Am Montag, 10. Juli 2006 16:55 schrieb Frando (Franz Heinzmann): [...]
For instance, [1] did so far always work for me. The article on ALA describes a method which doesn't work anymore because of several reasons you may read about here http://positioniseverything.net/articles/onetruelayout/appendix/equalheightp...
I think we should try to get it working only with css, and if everything fails, a table layout is constructed in not even an hour.
regards, frando
Am Montag, 10. Juli 2006 18:15 schrieb Frando (Franz Heinzmann):
That might be true, but as far as I can see only the part that makes the 3 columns have the same height is concerned. The rest of the "holy grail" css (the 3 columns) is still working. Equal heights are normally only needed if the columns need to have a different background that has to reach until the bottom of the page. Yes, that's true, only the equal-height part seems to be affected. But that is what it's all about and what makes this "grail" holy. Or am I wrong?
regards, frando
Sanduhrs schrieb:
Am Montag, 10. Juli 2006 16:55 schrieb Frando (Franz Heinzmann): [...]
For instance, [1] did so far always work for me.
The article on ALA describes a method which doesn't work anymore because of several reasons you may read about here http://positioniseverything.net/articles/onetruelayout/appendix/equalheig htproblems
I think we should try to get it working only with css, and if everything fails, a table layout is constructed in not even an hour.
regards, frando
Hi, I've created the following to have "full equal height columns" in every browser. Wanna take a look: <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="pt" xml:lang="pt"> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" /> <style type="text/css"> #container { background-color: gray; } #header { height: 40px; border: 1px solid red; } #middle { border:1px solid black; display: table-row; /* a width vai ser igual á soma das widths das celulas */ _display:block; background-color: red; } #content { width: 300px; border: 2px solid red; display: table-cell; _float:left; _display:block; _height: expression(lc1.offsetTop > lc2.offsetTop ? lc1.offsetTop : lc2.offsetTop); } #right-blocks { width: 150px; border: 2px solid blue; display: table-cell; _float:left; _display: block; _height: expression(lc1.offsetTop > lc2.offsetTop ? lc1.offsetTop : lc2.offsetTop); } .clear { clear:both; display: none; border: 1px solid red; _display: block; } #lc1, #lc2 { border: 1px solid brown; height: 1px; width: 150px; font-size: 0px; } </style> </head> <body> <img src="http://www.largeformatphotography.info/qtluong/cathedralrocks.big.jpeg" /> <div id="container"> <div id="header"> <p>header</p> </div> <div id="middle"> <div id="content"> <p>content</p> <div style="height:150px;border:1px solid yellow;"></div> <div id="lc1"></div> </div> <div id="right-blocks"> <p>blocos</p> <div style="height:75px;border:1px solid yellow;"></div> <div id="lc2"></div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </div> </div> </body> </html> Regards, Fernando Silva On 7/10/06, Sanduhrs <sanduhrs@audiens.de> wrote:
Am Montag, 10. Juli 2006 18:15 schrieb Frando (Franz Heinzmann):
That might be true, but as far as I can see only the part that makes the 3 columns have the same height is concerned. The rest of the "holy grail" css (the 3 columns) is still working. Equal heights are normally only needed if the columns need to have a different background that has to reach until the bottom of the page. Yes, that's true, only the equal-height part seems to be affected. But that is what it's all about and what makes this "grail" holy. Or am I wrong?
regards, frando
Sanduhrs schrieb:
Am Montag, 10. Juli 2006 16:55 schrieb Frando (Franz Heinzmann): [...]
For instance, [1] did so far always work for me.
The article on ALA describes a method which doesn't work anymore because of several reasons you may read about here http://positioniseverything.net/articles/onetruelayout/appendix/equalheig htproblems
I think we should try to get it working only with css, and if everything fails, a table layout is constructed in not even an hour.
regards, frando
Am Montag, 10. Juli 2006 20:23 schrieb Fernando Silva:
Hi,
I've created the following to have "full equal height columns" in every browser. Wanna take a look: Nice image ;) Do you have a template with 3 "full equal height columns" ?
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="pt" xml:lang="pt">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" />
<style type="text/css">
#container {
background-color: gray;
}
#header {
height: 40px;
border: 1px solid red;
}
#middle {
border:1px solid black;
display: table-row; /* a width vai ser igual á soma das widths das celulas */
_display:block; background-color: red;
}
#content {
width: 300px;
border: 2px solid red;
display: table-cell;
_float:left;
_display:block;
_height: expression(lc1.offsetTop > lc2.offsetTop ? lc1.offsetTop : lc2.offsetTop);
}
#right-blocks {
width: 150px;
border: 2px solid blue;
display: table-cell;
_float:left;
_display: block;
_height: expression(lc1.offsetTop > lc2.offsetTop ? lc1.offsetTop : lc2.offsetTop);
}
.clear {
clear:both;
display: none;
border: 1px solid red;
_display: block;
}
#lc1, #lc2 {
border: 1px solid brown;
height: 1px;
width: 150px;
font-size: 0px;
}
</style>
</head>
<body>
<img src="http://www.largeformatphotography.info/qtluong/cathedralrocks.big.jpeg " />
<div id="container">
<div id="header"> <p>header</p> </div>
<div id="middle">
<div id="content">
<p>content</p>
<div style="height:150px;border:1px solid yellow;"></div>
<div id="lc1"></div>
</div>
<div id="right-blocks">
<p>blocos</p>
<div style="height:75px;border:1px solid yellow;"></div>
<div id="lc2"></div>
</div>
<div class="clear"></div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>
Regards, Fernando Silva
On 7/10/06, Sanduhrs <sanduhrs@audiens.de> wrote:
Am Montag, 10. Juli 2006 18:15 schrieb Frando (Franz Heinzmann):
That might be true, but as far as I can see only the part that makes the 3 columns have the same height is concerned. The rest of the "holy grail" css (the 3 columns) is still working. Equal heights are normally only needed if the columns need to have a different background that has to reach until the bottom of the page.
Yes, that's true, only the equal-height part seems to be affected. But that is what it's all about and what makes this "grail" holy. Or am I wrong?
regards, frando
Sanduhrs schrieb:
Am Montag, 10. Juli 2006 16:55 schrieb Frando (Franz Heinzmann): [...]
For instance, [1] did so far always work for me.
The article on ALA describes a method which doesn't work anymore because of several reasons you may read about here http://positioniseverything.net/articles/onetruelayout/appendix/equal heig htproblems
I think we should try to get it working only with css, and if everything fails, a table layout is constructed in not even an hour.
regards, frando
On Monday 10 July 2006 14:17, Sanduhrs wrote:
Am Montag, 10. Juli 2006 20:23 schrieb Fernando Silva:
Hi,
I've created the following to have "full equal height columns" in every browser. Wanna take a look:
Nice image ;) Do you have a template with 3 "full equal height columns" ?
Actually there is an ALA Holy Grail layout in CVS that I added. It's still got a few IE bugs (figures) that I've not had a chance to fix yet (patches welcome!!!), but it's intent was to be as a starting point for building fancier "pure" themes. http://drupal.org/node/66150 -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
(First rant) While everyone is discussing whether a "3-column CSS layout template for developers" is achievable - I think this development process arse-up. Discussing implementation issues in absence of something to implement is wasting time. Our trialling users, Fantastico users, non-techie administrators, they want a new "sexy" theme as one of the defaults. For that reason, the focus has to be on the design first, and therefore we the tools are Photoshop, Fireworks or GIMP - *not* CSS and HTML. I'm sure we'd have 10 great candidates designs within a week if an announcement went in the forums. Or let's just expand on a great looking Wordpress theme. Or let's just have a vote on the best looking contrib theme. After we have the design, we can knock ourselves out with the implementation. Until then the clock's ticking, and rehashing ALA articles is not going to get us anywhere. Cheers, Simon
Hold on there cowboy... :) On 7/10/06, sime <info@urbits.com> wrote:
(First rant)
While everyone is discussing whether a "3-column CSS layout template for developers" is achievable - I think this development process arse-up. Discussing implementation issues in absence of something to implement is wasting time.
I've missed some of this discussion, so I hope I don't sound too misinformed when I say I think you are wrong... read below. Our trialling users, Fantastico users, non-techie administrators, they
want a new "sexy" theme as one of the defaults. For that reason, the focus has to be on the design first, and therefore we the tools are Photoshop, Fireworks or GIMP - *not* CSS and HTML. I'm sure we'd have 10 great candidates designs within a week if an announcement went in the forums. Or let's just expand on a great looking Wordpress theme. Or let's just have a vote on the best looking contrib theme.
Making a pretty design (I prefer inkscape btw. ;) Is an easy thing to do. Having a sane base that all themers can use to build thier theme is what we should be solving. I worked for a while on this with Ted (m3avrck) and Robin (mozillaman) and we didn't get very far. Recently, Rowan (rkerr) has released his "foundation" theme. It is a great step in the right direction. It is where we need to go. We ultimately need a flexible system that will let us warp and twist the regions to a point where we, the themers, can then take our pretty themes and simply start building it once we have our wireframe set like we like it. Building the wireframe, that works with Drupal, is typically the biggest obstacle. It's easy to do the gfx, the hard part is hanging your CSS on a properly built frame that Drupal doesn't barf on when it views forms, forums, admin, etc.... flames > /dev/null After we have the design, we can knock ourselves out with the
implementation. Until then the clock's ticking, and rehashing ALA articles is not going to get us anywhere.
Cheers, Simon
-- Trae McCombs || http://occy.net/ Founder - Themes.org // Linux.com CivicSpaceLabs - http://civicspacelabs.com/
Hi Trae, Sorry for not linking the previous thread "Patches": http://lists.drupal.org/archives/development/2006-07/msg00115.html Trae McCombs wrote:
On 7/10/06, *sime* <info@urbits.com <mailto:info@urbits.com>> wrote:
<snip>
Our trialling users, Fantastico users, non-techie administrators, they want a new "sexy" theme as one of the defaults. For that reason, the focus has to be on the design first, and therefore we the tools are Photoshop, Fireworks or GIMP - *not* CSS and HTML. I'm sure we'd have 10 great candidates designs within a week if an announcement went in the forums. Or let's just expand on a great looking Wordpress theme. Or let's just have a vote on the best looking contrib theme.
Making a pretty design (I prefer inkscape btw. ;) Is an easy thing to do. Having a sane base that all themers can use to build thier theme is what we should be solving. I worked for a while on this with Ted (m3avrck) and Robin (mozillaman) and we didn't get very far.
What I would like is to avoid discussion "implementation" and "sane bases" and "building on". All that can come later, and will come, and will be good. My agenda is moving focus of discussion to what is missing from core. *I think* that a "good looking" theme is missing, something that puts Drupal's on a "sexiness" par with Joomla. But here, you have provided a candidate "inkscape", that is what I'd like to see. I don't find this theme in the downloads - can you provide a screenshot?
On 7/10/06, sime <info@urbits.com> wrote:
Hi Trae, Sorry for not linking the previous thread "Patches": http://lists.drupal.org/archives/development/2006-07/msg00115.html
tx read below please... Trae McCombs wrote:
<snip>
Making a pretty design (I prefer inkscape btw. ;) Is an easy thing to do. Having a sane base that all themers can use to build thier theme is what we should be solving. I worked for a while on this with Ted (m3avrck) and Robin (mozillaman) and we didn't get very far.
What I would like is to avoid discussion "implementation" and "sane bases" and "building on". All that can come later, and will come, and will be good. My agenda is moving focus of discussion to what is missing from core. *I think* that a "good looking" theme is missing, something that puts Drupal's on a "sexiness" par with Joomla.
You are putting the cart before the horse. Noone can build a pretty theme, it's too difficult, unless you are Steven Wittens (he bud!) who is a PHP Gawd along with his massive knowledge of the drupal theming systems. Someone like myself, who knows CSS and can do graphics is at a disadvantage. That is why we need the base theme so we can all simply start hanging pretty stuff on skeletons. But here, you have provided a candidate "inkscape", that is what I'd
like to see. I don't find this theme in the downloads - can you provide a screenshot?
Inkscape is an application. :) http://inkscape.org/ -- Trae McCombs || http://occy.net/ Founder - Themes.org // Linux.com CivicSpaceLabs - http://civicspacelabs.com/
Trae McCombs wrote:
On 7/10/06, *sime* <info@urbits.com <mailto:info@urbits.com>> wrote:
What I would like is to avoid discussion "implementation" and "sane bases" and "building on". All that can come later, and will come, and will be good. My agenda is moving focus of discussion to what is missing from core. *I think* that a "good looking" theme is missing, something that puts Drupal's on a "sexiness" par with Joomla.
You are putting the cart before the horse. Noone can build a pretty theme, it's too difficult, unless you are Steven Wittens (he bud!) who is a PHP Gawd along with his massive knowledge of the drupal theming systems. Someone like myself, who knows CSS and can do graphics is at a disadvantage. That is why we need the base theme so we can all simply start hanging pretty stuff on skeletons.
Hmm, agree to disagree? :-)
Trae McCombs wrote:
Having a sane base that all themers can use to build thier theme is what we should be solving. I worked for a while on this with Ted (m3avrck) and Robin (mozillaman) and we didn't get very far. I've had a couple attempts at that sort of thing myself. But I've come to the conclusion it's not really possible. You're dreaming if you think you can create a single theme code base that fits even a large majority of drupal sites *and* looks really good. Fitting multiple uses requires making compromises and compromise leads to lowest common denominator design which = mediocrity.
Simon is right that a new core theme needs to start from a visual design if it's going to really look great. He's wrong if he thinks there can be only one. As has been said before truly great themes will only be possibly by focusing on the task the web site has to do - blog, brochure, community, e-commerce etc. You actually need a handful of base themes, not one, and that brings us back to the whole 'distribution' thing.
It's easy to do the gfx, the hard part is hanging your CSS on a properly built frame that Drupal doesn't barf on when it views forms, forums, admin, etc.... That rather suggests you're gfx didn't encompass forms, forums and admin! Doing it properly means designing for *every* part of Drupal, and yes, that's a huge job and not something that one person is likely to take on.
So post a pretty design, post the inkscape files, post a specification, post a list of all the parts of Drupal that need themeing and thus need gfx mockups. And make use of http://groups.drupal.org/group/themes -- Adrian Simmons (aka adrinux) <http://adrinux.perlucida.com> e-mail <mailto:adrinux@perlucida.com>
Adrian Simmons wrote:
Simon is right that a new core theme needs to start from a visual design if it's going to really look great. He's wrong if he thinks there can be only one.
Yes, if we are talking 4.8 inclusion, I think there can be *only one* new theme. So we should choose something that fills the biggest gap, and perhaps is not too ambitious - ie. maybe we should simply promote a popular and classy contrib theme. (Any nominations? I haven't used that many.)
On 11.Jul.2006, at 05:46, Adrian Simmons wrote:
As has been said before truly great themes will only be possibly by focusing on the task the web site has to do - blog, brochure, community, e-commerce etc. You actually need a handful of base themes, not one, and that brings us back to the whole 'distribution' thing.
++++++++10 Bravo! What most people forget when they look at WordPress' theme gallery is that WordPress is meant to do one thing and one thing alone : serve as a blog. Drupal, with all it's potential uses needs to show and demonstrate all the potential purposes and uses for the software through it's distributions but more importantly the themes : Can you get a Meetup.com or Yahoo!Groups design with a distro focused on the calendar, forums and the use of mailhandler and listhandler? Can you get a Evite distro with a special theming of events? Can you get a nice ecommerce theme? How about an online newspapery theme with aggregator2? How about a MySpace theme and distro? BTW, wasn't MySpace initially created with Drupal? I seem to remember it looking really Drupal-like at the beginning. / liza
Content Management Systems are separation of content from design. Design is always managed through CSS. All designers should be aware of this fact in case of Drupal. This gap will always exist between designers and developers and the only way to overcome this gap may be that the design should be 100% controlled by CSS and that is already being done through phptemplate, what you can control through phptemplate is that what shows what and where and how can you be more specific with certain areas or spice em up. Your dream will always be a bit of imagination. Drupal is hitting that mainstream activity where designers do their design part and programmers or configures connect the the UI to Drupal. CSS us the only way forward otherwise learn PHP and API Callups/Callbacks! Regards ----------------------- Fouad Riaz Bajwa www.fossfp.org -----Original Message----- From: development-bounces@drupal.org [mailto:development-bounces@drupal.org] On Behalf Of sime Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 7:53 AM To: development@drupal.org Subject: [development] Patches 4.8 - New Theme (First rant) While everyone is discussing whether a "3-column CSS layout template for developers" is achievable - I think this development process arse-up. Discussing implementation issues in absence of something to implement is wasting time. Our trialling users, Fantastico users, non-techie administrators, they want a new "sexy" theme as one of the defaults. For that reason, the focus has to be on the design first, and therefore we the tools are Photoshop, Fireworks or GIMP - *not* CSS and HTML. I'm sure we'd have 10 great candidates designs within a week if an announcement went in the forums. Or let's just expand on a great looking Wordpress theme. Or let's just have a vote on the best looking contrib theme. After we have the design, we can knock ourselves out with the implementation. Until then the clock's ticking, and rehashing ALA articles is not going to get us anywhere. Cheers, Simon -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/384 - Release Date: 7/10/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/384 - Release Date: 7/10/2006
I would like to pipe in here with a dissent. While it's a nice idea that design is 100% CSS, the simple fact is that is not the case, and never will be, with any dynamic CMS. You need other coding skills in order to call up the content, or simply manage the content that is pushed at you. Not only that, until we have 100% CSS-compliant browser usage out there, the real world will not cooperate with 100% CSS themes except for the kinds of layouts that lend themselves to the CSS logic in ways IE doesn't break. (I'll just leave alone the religious arguments about CSS-only layouts.) I agree 100% that Drupal needs some sexy themes. I also agree that Drupal needs to focus on code base and implementing a really smart theming system (phpTemplate2?) as was hinted at in the global skypecast echofest. As I see it, these are two very important goals that are equally important, imho, each for its own reasons -- sharp design because, right or wrong, design is the #1 way people judge a website's credibility, and solid code because we want to have a theming system that provides for the most flexibility, modularity and theming power for the designer -- but these are goals that do not come from the same place, and therefore can only converge in a kind of development tango dance. In other words, it will take some cooperation and communication while pushing in both directions. Pushing on one while ignoring the other would be nothing but missed opportunity, in my view. Aside: Getting beyond the One Theme To Unite Them All notion, I would even suggest that we consider opening up the theme garden (or some variant on it) to enable non-CVS contributions to Drupal, in order to make it easy for designers to contribute all sorts of designs. (In other words, design the theme development side to afford design contributions.) Laura On Jul 11, 2006, at 2:34 AM, Fouad Riaz Bajwa wrote:
Content Management Systems are separation of content from design. Design is always managed through CSS. All designers should be aware of this fact in case of Drupal. This gap will always exist between designers and developers and the only way to overcome this gap may be that the design should be 100% controlled by CSS and that is already being done through phptemplate, what you can control through phptemplate is that what shows what and where and how can you be more specific with certain areas or spice em up.
Your dream will always be a bit of imagination. Drupal is hitting that mainstream activity where designers do their design part and programmers or configures connect the the UI to Drupal.
CSS us the only way forward otherwise learn PHP and API Callups/ Callbacks!
Regards ----------------------- Fouad Riaz Bajwa www.fossfp.org
-----Original Message----- From: development-bounces@drupal.org [mailto:development- bounces@drupal.org] On Behalf Of sime Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 7:53 AM To: development@drupal.org Subject: [development] Patches 4.8 - New Theme
(First rant)
While everyone is discussing whether a "3-column CSS layout template for developers" is achievable - I think this development process arse-up. Discussing implementation issues in absence of something to implement is wasting time.
Our trialling users, Fantastico users, non-techie administrators, they want a new "sexy" theme as one of the defaults. For that reason, the focus has to be on the design first, and therefore we the tools are Photoshop, Fireworks or GIMP - *not* CSS and HTML. I'm sure we'd have 10 great candidates designs within a week if an announcement went in the forums. Or let's just expand on a great looking Wordpress theme. Or let's just have a vote on the best looking contrib theme.
After we have the design, we can knock ourselves out with the implementation. Until then the clock's ticking, and rehashing ALA articles is not going to get us anywhere.
Cheers, Simon
-- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/384 - Release Date: 7/10/2006
-- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/384 - Release Date: 7/10/2006
Could we kindly bump this conversation to groups.drupal.org? A tables vs. css debate is out of line for the development mailing list. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with any position -- let's just argue them elsewhere. Thank you, -Mark On 7/11/06, Laura Scott <laura@pingv.com> wrote:
I would like to pipe in here with a dissent. While it's a nice idea that design is 100% CSS, the simple fact is that is not the case, and never will be, with any dynamic CMS. You need other coding skills in order to call up the content, or simply manage the content that is pushed at you.
Not only that, until we have 100% CSS-compliant browser usage out there, the real world will not cooperate with 100% CSS themes except for the kinds of layouts that lend themselves to the CSS logic in ways IE doesn't break. (I'll just leave alone the religious arguments about CSS-only layouts.)
I agree 100% that Drupal needs some sexy themes.
I also agree that Drupal needs to focus on code base and implementing a really smart theming system (phpTemplate2?) as was hinted at in the global skypecast echofest.
As I see it, these are two very important goals that are equally important, imho, each for its own reasons -- sharp design because, right or wrong, design is the #1 way people judge a website's credibility, and solid code because we want to have a theming system that provides for the most flexibility, modularity and theming power for the designer -- but these are goals that do not come from the same place, and therefore can only converge in a kind of development tango dance.
In other words, it will take some cooperation and communication while pushing in both directions. Pushing on one while ignoring the other would be nothing but missed opportunity, in my view.
Aside: Getting beyond the One Theme To Unite Them All notion, I would even suggest that we consider opening up the theme garden (or some variant on it) to enable non-CVS contributions to Drupal, in order to make it easy for designers to contribute all sorts of designs. (In other words, design the theme development side to afford design contributions.)
Laura
On Jul 11, 2006, at 2:34 AM, Fouad Riaz Bajwa wrote:
Content Management Systems are separation of content from design. Design is always managed through CSS. All designers should be aware of this fact in case of Drupal. This gap will always exist between designers and developers and the only way to overcome this gap may be that the design should be 100% controlled by CSS and that is already being done through phptemplate, what you can control through phptemplate is that what shows what and where and how can you be more specific with certain areas or spice em up.
Your dream will always be a bit of imagination. Drupal is hitting that mainstream activity where designers do their design part and programmers or configures connect the the UI to Drupal.
CSS us the only way forward otherwise learn PHP and API Callups/ Callbacks!
Regards ----------------------- Fouad Riaz Bajwa www.fossfp.org
-----Original Message----- From: development-bounces@drupal.org [mailto:development- bounces@drupal.org] On Behalf Of sime Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 7:53 AM To: development@drupal.org Subject: [development] Patches 4.8 - New Theme
(First rant)
While everyone is discussing whether a "3-column CSS layout template for developers" is achievable - I think this development process arse-up. Discussing implementation issues in absence of something to implement is wasting time.
Our trialling users, Fantastico users, non-techie administrators, they want a new "sexy" theme as one of the defaults. For that reason, the focus has to be on the design first, and therefore we the tools are Photoshop, Fireworks or GIMP - *not* CSS and HTML. I'm sure we'd have 10 great candidates designs within a week if an announcement went in the forums. Or let's just expand on a great looking Wordpress theme. Or let's just have a vote on the best looking contrib theme.
After we have the design, we can knock ourselves out with the implementation. Until then the clock's ticking, and rehashing ALA articles is not going to get us anywhere.
Cheers, Simon
-- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/384 - Release Date: 7/10/2006
-- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/384 - Release Date: 7/10/2006
Discussion has been moved to themes mailing list. (themes@drupal.org.) New thread - http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/themes/2006-July/000464.html Sign-up - http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/themes Archive - http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/themes/ Mark Fredrickson wrote:
Could we kindly bump this conversation to groups.drupal.org?
A tables vs. css debate is out of line for the development mailing list.
I am not agreeing or disagreeing with any position -- let's just argue them elsewhere.
Thank you, -Mark
Am Dienstag, 11. Juli 2006 02:08 schrieb Larry Garfield:
Actually there is an ALA Holy Grail layout in CVS that I added. It's still got a few IE bugs (figures) that I've not had a chance to fix yet (patches welcome!!!), but it's intent was to be as a starting point for building fancier "pure" themes.
Hi Larry, I already knew that ;) Please have a look at the two screenshots i made from the Holy Grail theme: http://audiens.de/image/holygrail_screenshot_one?size=medium http://audiens.de/image/holygrail_screenshot_two?size=medium Especially the second demonstrates what I meant, when I said this is "a method which doesn't work anymore" 5 posts ago. The content area disappears completely when clicking on "add a new comment" and leaves miles of white space at the bottom of the page. Another demonstration of this effect is here: http://positioniseverything.net/articles/onetruelayout/appendix/equalheightp... http://positioniseverything.net/articles/onetruelayout/example/equalheightan... As far as I know, there's no solution for this bug. Or do you know one? -- GPG/PGP - http://subkeys.pgp.net/ pub 1024D/E71CDBFE 2006-07-10 Stefan Auditor <sanduhrs@audiens.de> Fingerprint=E9C5 56E8 7A5B 92AD 548A 7B57 2106 BE82 E71C DBFE
On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 09:26:21AM +0200, Sanduhrs wrote:
Especially the second demonstrates what I meant, when I said this is "a method which doesn't work anymore" 5 posts ago. The content area disappears completely when clicking on "add a new comment" and leaves miles of white space at the bottom of the page.
a while ago (last year), the spreadfirefox theme was suffering of a similar problem [1]... it "seems" it is now fixed in cvs [2] (with tables aaaaahhh) ... the thread is worth a look. http://drupal.org/project/spreadfirefox [1] http://drupal.org/node/17717#comment-30312 [2] http://drupal.org/node/17717#comment-133310 :) p -- ++ Blog: http://blog.rsise.anu.edu.au/?q=pietro ++ ++ "All great truths begin as blasphemies." -George Bernard Shaw ++ Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
On Tuesday 11 July 2006 02:26, Sanduhrs wrote:
Am Dienstag, 11. Juli 2006 02:08 schrieb Larry Garfield:
Actually there is an ALA Holy Grail layout in CVS that I added. It's still got a few IE bugs (figures) that I've not had a chance to fix yet (patches welcome!!!), but it's intent was to be as a starting point for building fancier "pure" themes.
Hi Larry, I already knew that ;)
Please have a look at the two screenshots i made from the Holy Grail theme: http://audiens.de/image/holygrail_screenshot_one?size=medium http://audiens.de/image/holygrail_screenshot_two?size=medium
Especially the second demonstrates what I meant, when I said this is "a method which doesn't work anymore" 5 posts ago. The content area disappears completely when clicking on "add a new comment" and leaves miles of white space at the bottom of the page.
Another demonstration of this effect is here: http://positioniseverything.net/articles/onetruelayout/appendix/equalheight problems#linking http://positioniseverything.net/articles/onetruelayout/example/equalheighta nchors
As far as I know, there's no solution for this bug. Or do you know one?
Hum. I'd not seen those issues before, except with IE. I don't know of a solution off hand. Ah well, so much for that idea, unless you can think of a solution to offer. /me curses the IE gods for not supporting CSS-defined tables, which would do 3 column layouts so much easier. -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
Hi, To have three columns we just need to add one more "column controller" and then play a bit with the "expression" part. If I could find a easier way to write the javascript expression for any column number, it would be nice... :) On 7/10/06, Sanduhrs <sanduhrs@audiens.de> wrote:
Am Montag, 10. Juli 2006 20:23 schrieb Fernando Silva:
Hi,
I've created the following to have "full equal height columns" in every browser. Wanna take a look: Nice image ;) Do you have a template with 3 "full equal height columns" ?
* and then Frando (Franz Heinzmann) declared....
I'm pretty sure it IS possible to create such a layout that even does allow clears in sub-elements.
For instance, [1] did so far always work for me.
I think we should try to get it working only with css, and if everything fails, a table layout is constructed in not even an hour.
It is indeed possible to make a base theme pure CSS layout with clears working properly. Ber's idea of a "theme for starting point for designers" has been on my wishlist for years. Now if we could get that vanilla theme with no styles whatsoever, just 100% correct XHTML, then have styles you can *add* to it, it would rock. Think "CSS Zen Garden" http://csszengarden.com -- Nick Wilson http://performancing.com/user/1
This would be brilliant. To make it useful in the unreal world of the Internet today, unfortunately we'd have to also add the criteria: 4. IE bulletproof [which unfortunately may be incompatible with 1. below ...]. Some days, I really wish my clients would just tell all the world's IE users to get lost, but it's just not happenning. - Alan On 7/9/06, Frando (Franz Heinzmann) <frando@xcite-online.de> wrote:
What about having both in one theme?
My suggestion for a new standard core theme would be to have a base html theme that's as universally valid as possible. Then, this html theme will be put into a standard - 3column - layout by layout.css. Both the HTML and the CSS can be used by designers as a starting point. Then, we should have a second CSS file, style.css, that does all the styling, color, background image, .. stuff to make our new default theme look drupalish-unique and maybe even a little fancy (if that's wanted).
In other words:
1. "Perfect" HTML scaffold, no tables, content structure over design, can be used as a starting point by designers (and probably will nearly always be used) 2. First CSS file: layout CSS. Still very designer friendly and universal 3. Second CSS file: styling CSS. Makes our theme look great and unique. Will maybe be used in some parts by designers as a source of inspiration.
best regards, Frando -- Alan Dixon, Web Developer http://alan.g.dixon.googlepages.com/
Dries Buytaert wrote:
5. A new core theme: no patch yet
Remember that the best way to improve the default theme is to improve the default themeable functions in core. Then we have improved HTML and theme function use for *all* themes. Ideally, the default theme won't need to implement any themeable functions to hide what we have as default. (theme_page() is another matter due to 3 column layout headaches...) -- Neil Drumm http://delocalizedham.com/
On Friday 07 July 2006 09:49 pm, Dries Buytaert wrote:
1. Simplified CCK into core: http://drupal.org/user/15277
What?? You want to put the whole of Jaza into core??? ;) you mean this, don't you? Pave the way for CCK http://drupal.org/node/62340 Augustin. -- http://www.wechange.org/ Because we and the world need to change. http://www.reuniting.info/ Intimate Relationships, peace and harmony in the couple.
participants (23)
-
Adrian Simmons -
Alan Dixon -
Augustin (Beginner) -
blogdiva＠culturekitchen.com -
Bèr Kessels -
Darrel O'Pry -
Douglas Ebner -
Dries Buytaert -
Fernando Silva -
Fouad Riaz Bajwa -
Frando (Franz Heinzmann) -
Ivan Boothe, Genocide Intervention Network -
Larry Garfield -
Laura Scott -
Mark Fredrickson -
Martin Tomes -
Neil Drumm -
Nick Wilson -
Pietro Abate -
Sanduhrs -
sime -
Steven Wittens -
Trae McCombs