Hello world, the past week or two, Steven Wittens has been working hard on Steef's original Themetastic. Frankly, I think we have a winner. I find it much better than Deliciously Zen or the original istyledthis.nl. The colors are perfect (good branding), and the theme has everything it needs to be bluemarine's pretty sister. The implementation is fully up to sniff to. :-) For those who haven't kept track of the recent developments, please point your browser to: http://drupal.org/node/88202 (issue) http://acko.net/themetastic (demo #1) http://www.acko.net/themetastic-fixed/ (demo #2) Is propose that we go ahead with this theme, and that we look into replacing more themes in Drupal 6.0. That gives us plenty of time to work out some of the remaining quirks, to decide what other themes to add, to engage more designers, to migrate existing themes, etc. So, I think we're going ahead with Themetastic. :) Thanks, -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Not bad Steven, this represents most of the changes I wanted to do to the theme myself, but didn't have the time. I think you and I both pray to the same whitespace Gods. :) My only concern, and I haven't looked at the code, is that it's not as "interesting", as the code for Friends Electric is. :) I would hope that Ted and others take a look at the code to make sure it's a solid base that makes sense. Great work Steef, UnConeD, and anyone that did any work on this. I give it a +1 I would still hope that Zen would be included in core as it's a great theme. Trae On 10/23/06, Dries Buytaert <dries.buytaert@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello world,
the past week or two, Steven Wittens has been working hard on Steef's original Themetastic. Frankly, I think we have a winner. I find it much better than Deliciously Zen or the original istyledthis.nl. The colors are perfect (good branding), and the theme has everything it needs to be bluemarine's pretty sister. The implementation is fully up to sniff to. :-)
For those who haven't kept track of the recent developments, please point your browser to:
http://drupal.org/node/88202 (issue) http://acko.net/themetastic (demo #1) http://www.acko.net/themetastic-fixed/ (demo #2)
Is propose that we go ahead with this theme, and that we look into replacing more themes in Drupal 6.0. That gives us plenty of time to work out some of the remaining quirks, to decide what other themes to add, to engage more designers, to migrate existing themes, etc.
So, I think we're going ahead with Themetastic. :)
Thanks,
-- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
-- Trae McCombs || http://occy.net/ Founder - Themes.org // Linux.com
Good theme for sure. Here are some areas for improvement: - I think a bi-color branding would be better than the all blue we have now. Things that go well with blues is orange and gold in the proper proportions. For example baheyeldin.com uses them very well (IMHO). - The square edges are a bit "harsh". I mean the ones that appear to be the superimposition of the centre column with the header. If these are rounded up a bit, the theme would go a long way in being more contemporary looking. The same goes for the points of Dinos and Bunnies: they can be less "harsh", although that is less so than the other squarish edges. - Theming of form elements go a long way in making the theme really stand out. Farsheed's theme made strides in this area. Perhaps some of that can be done. Good work Steven, and thanks for all the others. As I said before, picking one theme for 5.0 core should not stop you from contributing your theme for 5.0 and even 4.7. We the variety, and your efforts are appreciated. Please share what you created so far.
Yaaayyy! Something was accomplished! ;) *collapses from exhaustion* zirafa --- Dries Buytaert <dries.buytaert@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello world,
the past week or two, Steven Wittens has been working hard on Steef's original Themetastic. Frankly, I think we have a winner. I find it much better than Deliciously Zen or the original istyledthis.nl. The colors are perfect (good branding), and the theme has everything it needs to be bluemarine's pretty sister. The implementation is fully up to sniff to. :-)
For those who haven't kept track of the recent developments, please point your browser to:
http://drupal.org/node/88202 (issue) http://acko.net/themetastic (demo #1) http://www.acko.net/themetastic-fixed/ (demo #2)
Is propose that we go ahead with this theme, and that we look into replacing more themes in Drupal 6.0. That gives us plenty of time to work out some of the remaining quirks, to decide what other themes to add, to engage more designers, to migrate existing themes, etc.
So, I think we're going ahead with Themetastic. :)
Thanks,
-- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Dries Buytaert wrote:
Is propose that we go ahead with this theme, and that we look into replacing more themes in Drupal 6.0. That gives us plenty of time to work out some of the remaining quirks, to decide what other themes to add, to engage more designers, to migrate existing themes, etc.
So, I think we're going ahead with Themetastic. :)
Indeed, this theme looks nice. But you are speaking about *replacing*, which I imply means replacing bluemarine. Now bluemarine is the default admin theme. Is themetastic a solid contender to be an admin theme too? What is going to be the default admin theme, once bluemarine is replaced? Gabor
On 24 Oct 2006, at 2:17 PM, Gabor Hojtsy wrote:
Indeed, this theme looks nice. But you are speaking about *replacing*, which I imply means replacing bluemarine. Now bluemarine is the default admin theme. Is themetastic a solid contender to be an admin theme too? What is going to be the default admin theme, once bluemarine is replaced?
I believe themetastic should be the admin theme too. I believe by replacing 'bluemarine' , we mean completely removing it from the distribution and sticking it in contrib. It's about time for that.
It depends on what your objective is for the core theme. Themetastic is not easy to modify because of the color gradients, you can not just change a few colors in the CSS and go from blue to green. If the objective is to brand Drupal, Themetastic does a better job. There needs to be at least one theme in core, i.e. highly supported, that is easy to modify. Bluemarine is easy to modify! _____ From: development-bounces@drupal.org [mailto:development-bounces@drupal.org] On Behalf Of adrian rossouw Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:15 AM To: development@drupal.org Subject: Re: [development] Default core theme On 24 Oct 2006, at 2:17 PM, Gabor Hojtsy wrote: Indeed, this theme looks nice. But you are speaking about *replacing*, which I imply means replacing bluemarine. Now bluemarine is the default admin theme. Is themetastic a solid contender to be an admin theme too? What is going to be the default admin theme, once bluemarine is replaced? I believe themetastic should be the admin theme too. I believe by replacing 'bluemarine' , we mean completely removing it from the distribution and sticking it in contrib. It's about time for that.
On 24-Oct-06, at 10:29 AM, Walt Daniels wrote:
It depends on what your objective is for the core theme. Themetastic is not easy to modify because of the color gradients, you can not just change a few colors in the CSS and go from blue to green. If the objective is to brand Drupal, Themetastic does a better job.
There needs to be at least one theme in core, i.e. highly supported, that is easy to modify. Bluemarine is easy to modify!
I agree with this. It's why we've been pushing to have Zen (probably with both the Deliciously Zen skin and the more plain "wireframe" skin) included in addition to Themetastic as the default theme. The fact that there have been at least 4-5 completely distinct themes built on Zen that change nothing but a CSS file is testament to the fact that it is powerful, flexible, and easy to modify. If there's resistance to putting in two "new" themes, then one of us could probably easily port something like Bluemarine to Zen and include it that way. -Angie
On 10/24/06, Angela Byron <drupal-devel@webchick.net> wrote:
I agree with this. It's why we've been pushing to have Zen (probably with both the Deliciously Zen skin and the more plain "wireframe" skin) included in addition to Themetas tic as the default theme. The fact that there have been at least 4-5 completely distinct themes built on Zen that change nothing but a CSS file is testament to the fact that it is powerful, flexible, and easy to modify.
Right, again, that's what I was trying to say with my initial endorsement caveat. Was that the theme needs to be clean and well-built from the inside and easy to use like the Zen theme is. It won't matter how pretty it is if it's guts are a mess that no themer can understand. This is all without me having looked at the code. (I don't feel I'm the most qualified to make assessments of structure, for portability, like people I know are, Ted "m3averck".) If there's resistance to putting in two "new" themes, then one of us
could probably easily port something like Bluemarine to Zen and include it that way.
-Angie
-- Trae McCombs || http://occy.net/ Founder - Themes.org // Linux.com
If there's resistance to putting in two "new" themes, then one of us could probably easily port something like Bluemarine to Zen and include it that way.
-Angie
Someone has already ported bluemarine to zen/holy grail layout: http://drupal.org/project/holygrail Description: "This theme is a reimplementation of the Bluemarine theme using the "Holy Grail" layout, as presented by A List Apart: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/holygrail Visually it should be nearly identical to Bluemarine. It is intended more as a demonstration of using a Holy Grail layout in a Drupal theme than as a theme itself. Hopefully this will help spawn a bunch more pure-CSS themes. :-) Enjoy!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
"This theme is a reimplementation of the Bluemarine theme using the "Holy Grail" layout, as presented by A List Apart:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/holygrail
Visually it should be nearly identical to Bluemarine. It is intended more as a demonstration of using a Holy Grail layout in a Drupal theme than as a theme itself. Hopefully this will help spawn a bunch more pure-CSS themes. :-) Enjoy!"
This layout is most likely unusable for Drupal as it uses the following trick to ensure equal height columns: #container { overflow: hidden; } #container .column { padding-bottom: 20010px; /* X + padding-bottom */ margin-bottom: -20000px; /* X */ } #footer { position: relative; } This is known to cause problems with anchors for which there is no real fix: http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/onetruelayout/appendix/ equalheightproblems Steven Wittens
#container .column { padding-bottom: 20010px; /* X + padding-bottom */ margin-bottom: -20000px; /* X */ }
For us to even think about promoting such horrific code would be an affront to every bit of quality in other parts of Drupal. How evil! -- Morbus Iff ( cheese and rice saves ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
For us to even think about promoting such horrific code would be an affront to every bit of quality in other parts of Drupal. How evil!
Well you can't have your cake and eat it too... people want tableless themes. They are impossible without at least some degree of CSS hacks. Otherwise, you must go for tabled, and hardcode it in the markup, which is non-semantic. Steven Wittens
Well you can't have your cake and eat it too... people want tableless themes. They are impossible without at least some degree of CSS hacks. Otherwise, you must go for tabled, and hardcode it in the markup, which
But you'll have to admit that there are CSS hacks that are more "acceptable" than others. Accepting a 20000px padding hack is far more difficult than accepting a html > sorta hack (or whatever the hell they are - I tend not to use any CSS hacks for my themes, but then again, I don't build three column themes every day). Then again, I'm of the position that a properly built tabled layout CAN be semantic. That's a long ass discussion for another day though ;) -- Morbus Iff ( whooooooo's hoooouuuuuse? ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
Morbus Iff skrev:
Well you can't have your cake and eat it too... people want tableless themes. They are impossible without at least some degree of CSS hacks. Otherwise, you must go for tabled, and hardcode it in the markup, which
But you'll have to admit that there are CSS hacks that are more "acceptable" than others. Accepting a 20000px padding hack is far more difficult than accepting a html > sorta hack (or whatever the hell they are - I tend not to use any CSS hacks for my themes, but then again, I don't build three column themes every day).
I must object! The 20000px padding solution is definitely awful, but that doesn't make it defective or inappropriate. On the contrary, the 20000px padding is a perfect valid solution to accomplish equal length columns in CSS. And more important, it works in IE6, as opposed to the otherwise preferable way to do it: position: absolute, top: 0; bottom: 0. The actual stumbling-block for One True Layout <http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/onetruelayout/> is the problem with linking to anchors in elements within the containing block <http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/onetruelayout/appendix/equalheightproblems> due to a bug in the CSS 2.1 specification itself. If we can accept that the default core theme only works with modern browsers (Internet Explorer 6 and 7, Firefox, Safari, Opera 9 and others), a solution would be to use the preferable solution above, and feed IE6 with 20000px padding solution without the overflow: hidden on the containing wrapper element.
Then again, I'm of the position that a properly built tabled layout CAN be semantic. That's a long ass discussion for another day though ;)
There is no need for "a long ass discussion". It follows immediately by simple logic that you are wrong. :-) By definition <table> should only be used for tables. So therefore, if you use <table> for other purposes, it isn't semantic. By /modus tollens/ it follows that a table based layout can't be semantic correct. If you claim otherwise, please tell me where the logic fall short. Regards, Thomas
There is no need for "a long ass discussion". It follows immediately by simple logic that you are wrong. :-) By definition <table> should only be used for tables. So therefore, if you use <table> for other purposes, it isn't semantic. By /modus tollens/ it follows that a table based layout can't be semantic correct. If you claim otherwise, please tell me where the logic fall short.
Like I said, it's a long discussion. -- Morbus Iff ( jeez, looks like ookla here has yet to touch the monolith ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
Thomas Barregren wrote:
Morbus Iff skrev:
Then again, I'm of the position that a properly built tabled layout CAN be semantic. That's a long ass discussion for another day though ;)
There is no need for "a long ass discussion". It follows immediately by simple logic that you are wrong. :-) By definition <table> should only be used for tables. So therefore, if you use <table> for other purposes, it isn't semantic. By /modus tollens/ it follows that a table based layout can't be semantic correct. If you claim otherwise, please tell me where the logic fall short.
Regards, Thomas
I also use a table to change a light bulb. This is a useless discussion, there are groups for this.
Slightly OT: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/63
Steven Wittens wrote:
For us to even think about promoting such horrific code would be an affront to every bit of quality in other parts of Drupal. How evil!
Well you can't have your cake and eat it too... people want tableless themes. They are impossible without at least some degree of CSS hacks. Otherwise, you must go for tabled, and hardcode it in the markup, which is non-semantic.
I tried the 'holy grail' layout and was left unimpressed. It is way too complex and I found that it didn't behave very well. I wanted links to anchors in a page to jump down to a different section, with the 'holy grail' CSS this is broken. I would be against anything based on it. Having said that, I can find no clean way of doing a three column *fluid* layout in CSS which has fixed size left and right columns and a fluid centre column and which also permits floats in the centre column (i.e., the centre column itself has to be floated to start a new float context). The only method I have found is the one used on drupal.org where the left and right columns are percentages of the width. -- Martin Tomes echo 'martin at tomes x org x uk'\ | sed -e 's/ x /\./g' -e 's/ at /@/' Visit http://www.subversionary.org/
On 10/24/06, Morbus Iff <morbus@disobey.com> wrote:
#container .column { padding-bottom: 20010px; /* X + padding-bottom */ margin-bottom: -20000px; /* X */ }
For us to even think about promoting such horrific code would be an affront to every bit of quality in other parts of Drupal. How evil!
But, if it's any consolation, you just received a "+10 outrage powerup" for this message :P -- Boris Mann
On Tuesday 24 October 2006 15:06, Farsheed wrote:
If there's resistance to putting in two "new" themes, then one of us could probably easily port something like Bluemarine to Zen and include it that way.
-Angie
Someone has already ported bluemarine to zen/holy grail layout:
That someone would be me. :-) And as that theme's author, I can say it's not really production-usable. There are some bugs that have been noted against it where it dies a horrible death in IE. I'm not sure if that's due to issues in the original ALA design or in my port (and why I didn't see them during development I don't know either), but I've really not had time lately to fix them. (Patches always welcome. </plug>) A better-implemented Zen-like CSS version of Bluemarine like Angie is proposing would be fine by me, and assuming it breaks less than holygrail I'd probably officially deprecate holygrail in favor of it. I make no claims of being a CSS layout ninja. :-) As long as there's a good base for doing CSS-based designs without starting from scratch, I'm happy. As I've said before, I *like* Bluemarine when I'm doing development. It's dull, boring, and gets out of my way so that I can focus on the code, knowing every time look at the browser that I'm developing to a temporary look. Please, let's keep some Bluemarine-like theme in core for exactly that reason, whatever it's internal code structure is. :-) -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
On 24 Oct 2006, at 4:29 PM, Walt Daniels wrote:
There needs to be at least one theme in core, i.e. highly supported, that is easy to modify. Bluemarine is easy to modif not as easily as themetastic :
some screenshots of the new themetastic configuration screen : http://tinyurl.com/y9gjc7 http://tinyurl.com/yzzlt9
I love the slick new themetastic customization options, but that kind of modification is a different matter. There's end-user customization, and there's hacking of the the CSS and .tpl.php files to create a new derivative theme. The shots you're pointing at DEFINITELY make the first one easier, but are unrelated to the second. :) --Jeff adrian rossouw wrote:
On 24 Oct 2006, at 4:29 PM, Walt Daniels wrote:
There needs to be at least one theme in core, i.e. highly supported, that is easy to modify. Bluemarine is easy to modif not as easily as themetastic :
some screenshots of the new themetastic configuration screen :
On 24 Oct 2006, at 5:40 PM, Jeff Eaton wrote:
I love the slick new themetastic customization options, but that kind of modification is a different matter. There's end-user customization, and there's hacking of the the CSS and .tpl.php files to create a new derivative theme. The shots you're pointing at DEFINITELY make the first one easier, but are unrelated to the second. :) i quote :
"It depends on what your objective is for the core theme. Themetastic is not easy to modify because of the color gradients, you can not just change a few colors in the CSS and go from blue to green. If the objective is to brand Drupal, Themetastic does a better job."
On 24 Oct 2006, at 14:17, Gabor Hojtsy wrote:
Dries Buytaert wrote:
Is propose that we go ahead with this theme, and that we look into replacing more themes in Drupal 6.0. That gives us plenty of time to work out some of the remaining quirks, to decide what other themes to add, to engage more designers, to migrate existing themes, etc. So, I think we're going ahead with Themetastic. :)
Indeed, this theme looks nice. But you are speaking about *replacing*, which I imply means replacing bluemarine. Now bluemarine is the default admin theme. Is themetastic a solid contender to be an admin theme too? What is going to be the default admin theme, once bluemarine is replaced?
We can choose to add it, and then remove bluemarine in Drupal 6.0. That gives us one release to migrate away from it. In the mean time, Themetastic should be the new default. -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Op dinsdag 24 oktober 2006 16:27, schreef Dries Buytaert:
We can choose to add it, and then remove bluemarine in Drupal 6.0. That gives us one release to migrate away from it. In the mean time, Themetastic should be the new default.
There is an essential part that I have missed all trough this discussion * What does Drupal want to acheive with a default theme? I would love to hear Dries' opinion on that. The goal of a theme dictates its looks-feels-hackability-technology and what else. We now have a theme that just looks good (I mean, I haven'nt heard anyone about how well the admin areas were working with themetastic, I doubt that has been thourougly tested). If 'it should look better' is the only goal, then its achieved. But I doubt that, somehow. Bèr -- | Bèr Kessels | webschuur.com | Drupal, Joomla and Ruby on Rails web development | | Jabber & Google Talk: ber@jabber.webschuur.com | | http://bler.webschuur.com | http://www.webschuur.com | Commentaren en feedback op inhoud: http://help.sympal.nl/commentaren_en_feedback_op_inhoud
There is an essential part that I have missed all trough this discussion * What does Drupal want to acheive with a default theme?
Ber brings up a good point. I think from what I've been observing is that there is more interest in having a really good looking default theme with all the bells and whistles. Themetastic meets and surpasses that need, especially with this new color widget. It serves the branding aesthetic well. However, from a theme designer point of view, this theme will be nothing but hell for a new designer. Support channels will be flooded with questions about it. So I STRONGLY am for a non-default core theme that: 1) has basic elements shaded or outlined 2) is very well documented 3) is compatible across browsers 4) causes the least headaches for new designers zirafa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Op woensdag 25 oktober 2006 14:22, schreef Farsheed:
So I STRONGLY am for a non-default core theme that:
1) has basic elements shaded or outlined 2) is very well documented 3) is compatible across browsers 4) causes the least headaches for new designers
The only theme that meets that, IMO is box_grey. But I doubt that that one will be considered core worthy by the Great Designer Eyeballs. In the mean time, I am still working on whatsinitsname, a base theme, but that is very-non-core. :) http://cvs.drupal.org/viewcvs/drupal/contributions/themes/whatsinitsname/ I have built three sites with that now, and must say that its basis stands very well trough the three theme-designs. I'd encourage all people in need of a solid, consistent, CSS based, framework, to have a look at it, and send me feedback. Maybe it'll grow popular enough to become core-worthy one day. grin. Once I feel the XHTML, classes and IDs are consistent and solid enough, I will release it, but to get there, I need testers. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, after all. In the mean time, I'd say not to bother too much about developer-worthy core themes ;). No serious developer and designer will or sould consider using them , IMNSHU. Would you really offer your client a site that looks/feels exactly like >9000 other sites on the web? Bèr -- | Bèr Kessels | webschuur.com | Drupal, Joomla and Ruby on Rails web development | | Jabber & Google Talk: ber@jabber.webschuur.com | | http://bler.webschuur.com | http://www.webschuur.com |
On 25 Oct 2006, at 13:14, Bèr Kessels wrote:
There is an essential part that I have missed all trough this discussion * What does Drupal want to acheive with a default theme?
I would love to hear Dries' opinion on that. The goal of a theme dictates its looks-feels-hackability-technology and what else.
I've outline this before -- see archives. :) -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
I have not seen anyone mention pros or cons of the Foundation theme by Rowan Kerr. http://drupal.org/project/foundation This is a pure CSS, one, two or three column layout, and is only a foundation to build on. I know that Trae uses it and likes it as a base.
This is a great theme base for building themes, it might be nice to have this included in core as a "base to build from" for themers... But I wouldn't want this to be the default Drupal core theme though. :) My only complaint with Foundation (Sorry Rowan, should have told you before here), is the difficultly with doing fixed sized right and left sidebars in the theme. I think that is an addition the theme needs to take on. Not sure how to do this, AND allow for % based sidebars. On 10/25/06, Khalid B <kb@2bits.com> wrote:
I have not seen anyone mention pros or cons of the Foundation theme by Rowan Kerr.
http://drupal.org/project/foundation
This is a pure CSS, one, two or three column layout, and is only a foundation to build on.
I know that Trae uses it and likes it as a base.
-- Trae McCombs || http://occy.net/ Founder - Themes.org // Linux.com
participants (18)
-
adrian rossouw -
Angela Byron -
Boris Mann -
Bèr Kessels -
Dries Buytaert -
Farsheed -
Gabor Hojtsy -
Jeff Eaton -
Karthik -
Khalid B -
Larry Garfield -
Martin Tomes -
Morbus Iff -
sime -
Steven Wittens -
Thomas Barregren -
Trae McCombs -
Walt Daniels