This maybe a wrong question to this list, but hoping it is OK :-)
I am supposed to do a demo site for a company. They have chosen Drupal for the platform after considering Joomla, which I did a demo site for them. I realized CMS is aimed at Blog users, and I am having tough time getting quick tutorials for commercial site where no Blog or News Feeds are needed.
The reason for CMS needs are multiple Asian language support, archiving news releases and other documents, and ability to edit the contents by managers, not to mention needs for CSS2-clean.
Is there any tutorial for commercial site design which skips all the needs for Blog? I haven't been able to find one so far. Drupal terminologies are more confusing than Joomla to me. Joomla offers manual which you can print, bind, and read even where you don't have the net access. I was hoping to find something like that for Drupal but to no avail. I did order the book from Packt but not sure when I receive it.
Thank you for your time.
CMS is aimed at managing all forms of content. Content can be separated into two components, the content itself and the display of that content.
A good place to start working with the content is the CCK Module ( http://drupal.org/project/cck). A great tutorial on CCK is located at http://www.lullabot.com/articles/an_introduction_to_the_content_construction...
A good place to start working with display of that content is the Views Module(http://drupal.org/project/views). Some tutorials for the views module are located at http://drupal.org/node/59157
On 4/24/07, A-NO-NE Music madflute@anonemusic.com wrote:
This maybe a wrong question to this list, but hoping it is OK :-)
I am supposed to do a demo site for a company. They have chosen Drupal for the platform after considering Joomla, which I did a demo site for them. I realized CMS is aimed at Blog users, and I am having tough time getting quick tutorials for commercial site where no Blog or News Feeds are needed.
The reason for CMS needs are multiple Asian language support, archiving news releases and other documents, and ability to edit the contents by managers, not to mention needs for CSS2-clean.
Is there any tutorial for commercial site design which skips all the needs for Blog? I haven't been able to find one so far. Drupal terminologies are more confusing than Joomla to me. Joomla offers manual which you can print, bind, and read even where you don't have the net access. I was hoping to find something like that for Drupal but to no avail. I did order the book from Packt but not sure when I receive it.
Thank you for your time.
--
- Hiro
Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com
-- [ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]
Cyberswat / 2007/04/24 / 02:01 PM wrote:
CMS is aimed at managing all forms of content. Content can be separated into two components, the content itself and the display of that content.
This is a good advice. I didn't think about this way. Thank you.
A good place to start working with the content is the CCK Module
<snip>
A good place to start working with display of that content is the Views
I kinda guessed they are the key so I did install both of them from the day one, then I noticed the Getting Start Guide noted don't touch them until you know what you are doing :-)
I will reread the documents for those module with your suggestion in mind.
Cyberswat / 2007/04/24 / 02:01 PM wrote:
A good place to start working with the content is the CCK Module ( http://drupal.org/project/cck). A great tutorial on CCK is located at http://www.lullabot.com/articles/an_i ntroduction_to_the_content_construction_kit
I guess it would take a while for me to get used to Drupal way. To be honest, Joomla was a lot more intuitive even when dealing with documentations. It seems my language barrier seems to getting on the way with Drupal, while I didn't have that with Joomla.
I just wanted to a little experiment with CCK by creating 2 Lists to attach year label and month label for the content for later sorting. I was hoping something like: <option selected="selected">-- Select One --</option> <option>one</option> <option>two</option> <option>three</option> But it seems I am supposed to know array() => Drupal API. I found no info on the cck documentation I printed out and the lullabot site so I googled by +"drupal 5.1" +cck +"select list" but to no avail.
I think what I need to learn is how to process when I need to do something. Any suggestion would be appreciate it.
On Apr 27, 2007, at 1:46 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote:
I just wanted to a little experiment with CCK by creating 2 Lists to attach year label and month label for the content for later sorting. I was hoping something like: <option selected="selected">-- Select One --</option> <option>one</option> <option>two</option> <option>three</option> But it seems I am supposed to know array() => Drupal API. I found no info on the cck documentation I printed out and the lullabot site so I googled by +"drupal 5.1" +cck +"select list" but to no avail.
There are a number of supplementary CCK modules that might help you.
http://drupal.org/project/date
maybe: http://drupal.org/project/dependantDropdown http://drupal.org/project/multiselect http://drupal.org/project/content_taxonomy or http://drupal.org/ project/taxonomy_fields (you could use taxonomy for your selection framework)
Hope this helps.
Laura
A-NO-NE Music a ecrit le 27/04/2007 21:46:
Cyberswat / 2007/04/24 / 02:01 PM wrote:
I just wanted to a little experiment with CCK by creating 2 Lists to attach year label and month label for the content for later sorting. I was hoping something like: <option selected="selected">-- Select One --</option> <option>one</option> <option>two</option> <option>three</option> But it seems I am supposed to know array() => Drupal API.
The optionwidgets.module that comes with the CCK bundle does just that : use a select list (or checkboxes , or radiobuttons) to edit a field instead of the regular textfield input. If you want to do just "One / Two / Three" stuff, that should be just fine - applies to 'text' and 'number' field types.
If you need more advanced semantics with actual dates, the date.module Laura pointed is probably your first step.
Yves Chedemois / 2007/04/27 / 04:09 PM wrote:
The optionwidgets.module that comes with the CCK bundle does just that : use a select list (or checkboxes , or radiobuttons) to edit a field instead of the regular textfield input. If you want to do just "One / Two / Three" stuff, that should be just fine - applies to 'text' and 'number' field types.
Oh, I see. My error was I did this as node reference instead of Text. I guess what I have been looking for is more 'baby-sitting' documentation that explains each options. I realized I have been guessing wrong too often :-)
For example, when you click on Add Group, there is no explanation what it is for. Searching at Drupla site hasn't been easy for me either. I just need to get used to the workflow. It has been quite pleasing this list has been so helpful :-)
Laura, thank you so much for your input as well. I will dive into it soon.
Hi,
I realized CMS is aimed at Blog users, and I am having tough time getting quick tutorials for commercial site where no Blog or News Feeds are needed.
I realize I'm late to this party, but as a newbie myself I've just come through the procedure of turning Drupal into my CMS of choice, so being rubbish is still fresh in my mind!
Although Drupal isn't specifically aimed at blog users, out of the box I'd say it *does* look very bloggy, so the confusion is understandable. The default theme is very much "WordPress++", I'd say. But under the hood it has different ways of doing things that mean you can move fairly quickly away from that.
My suggestions would be:
* CCK, as suggested elsewhere. You can create new content types with Drupal core, although they all have the same input fields. CCK provides the ability to create custom input fields, like dates or extra metadata.
* To get a more hierarchical structure to the site, look into the category module. This puts Drupal-core taxonomies into "containers": when a content node is tagged with a taxonomy term, it then goes into that container. It's a slight hack and a bit fiddly but it seems to work well.
* Get the hang of PHPTemplate, Drupal API, Drupal Form API and the concept of theme_* and hook_* functions early on, as it'll save you extra programming later. These permit you to hook up to Drupal core in your own templates, so you (a) don't reinvent the wheel and (b) have less hassle moving to a new theme later on.
* Learn about page Regions (sidebar, header, footer etc.) and the Blocks that go into them, and the Views you can use to automatically generate content for blocks.
* For your own purposes, check out Drupal's language locale support. Make heavy use of the t() function in your own code and you should find you can translate between different languages easily.
* Similarly for your own use, look into one of the more XHTML/CSS-friendly included themes like garland. Some themes still make extensive use of <table> elements for layout.
Good luck!
J-P
Hi, In the message quoted below you talked a lot of having to make ones own code to get around in Drupal. I know i'm a newbie to all this CMS stuff and i consider myself an idiot when it comes to programming in any shape or form even though i know a tiny little bit about Javascript but not enough by far to get around, partly because i have a terrible memory for syntax, so my question is do i really need to know about programming to be able to manage Drupal? I chose to go with a CMS because as a blind person it can be quite tricky to do layout and contents that looks desent and more atractive than working in a standard html editor, but if you have to learn how to hack in order to manage this, maybe it's time to think again. /Krister
J-P Stacey wrote:
Hi,
I realized CMS is aimed at Blog users, and I am having tough time getting quick tutorials for commercial site where no Blog or News Feeds are needed.
I realize I'm late to this party, but as a newbie myself I've just come through the procedure of turning Drupal into my CMS of choice, so being rubbish is still fresh in my mind!
Although Drupal isn't specifically aimed at blog users, out of the box I'd say it *does* look very bloggy, so the confusion is understandable. The default theme is very much "WordPress++", I'd say. But under the hood it has different ways of doing things that mean you can move fairly quickly away from that.
My suggestions would be:
- CCK, as suggested elsewhere. You can create new content types with Drupal
core, although they all have the same input fields. CCK provides the ability to create custom input fields, like dates or extra metadata.
- To get a more hierarchical structure to the site, look into the category
module. This puts Drupal-core taxonomies into "containers": when a content node is tagged with a taxonomy term, it then goes into that container. It's a slight hack and a bit fiddly but it seems to work well.
- Get the hang of PHPTemplate, Drupal API, Drupal Form API and the concept
of theme_* and hook_* functions early on, as it'll save you extra programming later. These permit you to hook up to Drupal core in your own templates, so you (a) don't reinvent the wheel and (b) have less hassle moving to a new theme later on.
- Learn about page Regions (sidebar, header, footer etc.) and the Blocks
that go into them, and the Views you can use to automatically generate content for blocks.
- For your own purposes, check out Drupal's language locale support. Make
heavy use of the t() function in your own code and you should find you can translate between different languages easily.
- Similarly for your own use, look into one of the more XHTML/CSS-friendly
included themes like garland. Some themes still make extensive use of
<table> elements for layout.
Good luck!
J-P
Hi Krister,
enough by far to get around, partly because i have a terrible memory for syntax, so my question is do i really need to know about programming to be able to manage Drupal?
I don't have enough experience to comment on Drupal as a whole, but I've been able to get a long way without doing any hacking. Modules just seem to install themselves when you unpack and checkbox them, and new content types will chug along with the default views. If you add new fields to content types with the CCK then the module also brings in a default way of representing those fields on the page, so you'll only ever need to CSS it.
As an example, currently I'm marvelling at the ecommerce module, which seems to do a whole payment workflow without a single line of PHP being written by me. E-commerce generally is a huge, sprawling mess, and getting it right in other frameworks has typically involved a lot of hacking, but so far not with Drupal. Ask me again when I've had a fiddle with the WorldPay sub-module, and trying to send them custom fields, though!
The reason we've been doing a lot of programming is that, if we want to use Drupal for our clients rather than ourselves, then they're going to have quite exacting standards and we need to stretch Drupal to its limits as early as we can so we know what it can do.
Cheers, J-P
I think you are on the right track using Drupal.
The confusion arises as users of all kinds get very excited about all levels of using this framework, and start getting carried away in their suggestions without taking into account what your objectives are.
Dries, the original creator of Drupal, spoke at the last conference about freeing the users from webmasters (you do not have to know HTML) and about how now the task is to free the users from programmers (and certainly from programming) and to free the users from designers also.
While people who love to program, or work as programmers, love to program a lot with Drupal, and as graphic designers work with Drupal in their every effort to make Drupal "not look like Drupal" for their fashion-conscious clients, on the other hand, you can fashion very decent looking and above all, functional sites without any programming or even theming at all.
To go beyond the blogging question, simply set the front page as a page. If your site is basically a brochure site, you can start out by following Laura Scott's excellent "Approaching a brochureware website using Drupal" (link: http://pingv.com/blog/laura/200509/approaching-a-brochureware-website-using-...), which shows you which modules to use, to set up an about page, a products or services page, contact form, etc., all without programming.
Then, if you need special blocks, you can make them with a WYSIWYG editor like TinyMCE.
If you need special content types you can make them without programming just as you would in Access or the like by going to Administer >> Content Types.
If you need special views, you can create views, with their own special paths for page views, also without programming. These paths can be placed in menus or blocks holding links, or put on pages as links.
And you can house everything in the default Garland theme, with your own color scheme, dispensing with the graphic artist, and you will have a great site.
Good luck!
Victor Kane http://awebfactory.com.ar
On 4/25/07, Krister Ekstrom krister@kristersplace.ws wrote:
Hi, In the message quoted below you talked a lot of having to make ones own code to get around in Drupal. I know i'm a newbie to all this CMS stuff and i consider myself an idiot when it comes to programming in any shape or form even though i know a tiny little bit about Javascript but not enough by far to get around, partly because i have a terrible memory for syntax, so my question is do i really need to know about programming to be able to manage Drupal? I chose to go with a CMS because as a blind person it can be quite tricky to do layout and contents that looks desent and more atractive than working in a standard html editor, but if you have to learn how to hack in order to manage this, maybe it's time to think again. /Krister
J-P Stacey wrote:
Hi,
I realized CMS is aimed at Blog users, and I am having tough time getting quick tutorials for commercial site where no Blog or News Feeds are needed.
I realize I'm late to this party, but as a newbie myself I've just come through the procedure of turning Drupal into my CMS of choice, so being rubbish is still fresh in my mind!
Although Drupal isn't specifically aimed at blog users, out of the box
I'd
say it *does* look very bloggy, so the confusion is understandable. The default theme is very much "WordPress++", I'd say. But under the hood it
has
different ways of doing things that mean you can move fairly quickly
away
from that.
My suggestions would be:
- CCK, as suggested elsewhere. You can create new content types with
Drupal
core, although they all have the same input fields. CCK provides the
ability
to create custom input fields, like dates or extra metadata.
- To get a more hierarchical structure to the site, look into the
category
module. This puts Drupal-core taxonomies into "containers": when a
content
node is tagged with a taxonomy term, it then goes into that container.
It's
a slight hack and a bit fiddly but it seems to work well.
- Get the hang of PHPTemplate, Drupal API, Drupal Form API and the
concept
of theme_* and hook_* functions early on, as it'll save you extra programming later. These permit you to hook up to Drupal core in your
own
templates, so you (a) don't reinvent the wheel and (b) have less hassle moving to a new theme later on.
- Learn about page Regions (sidebar, header, footer etc.) and the Blocks
that go into them, and the Views you can use to automatically generate content for blocks.
- For your own purposes, check out Drupal's language locale support.
Make
heavy use of the t() function in your own code and you should find you
can
translate between different languages easily.
- Similarly for your own use, look into one of the more
XHTML/CSS-friendly
included themes like garland. Some themes still make extensive use of
<table> elements for layout.
Good luck!
J-P
-- [ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]
A quick follow-up to my suggestion: the article I sent you to look at is still quite valid, although a little dated; the only factual correction that I would like to make quickly is that you do not need flexinode, since Drupal 5 now allows you to create your own custom content types. If you desire to add additional attributes or fields to your custom content types, then you can easily do so by downloading and installing the cck module.
Victor Kane http://awebfactory.com.ar
On 4/25/07, Victor Kane victorkane@gmail.com wrote:
I think you are on the right track using Drupal.
The confusion arises as users of all kinds get very excited about all levels of using this framework, and start getting carried away in their suggestions without taking into account what your objectives are.
Dries, the original creator of Drupal, spoke at the last conference about freeing the users from webmasters (you do not have to know HTML) and about how now the task is to free the users from programmers (and certainly from programming) and to free the users from designers also.
While people who love to program, or work as programmers, love to program a lot with Drupal, and as graphic designers work with Drupal in their every effort to make Drupal "not look like Drupal" for their fashion-conscious clients, on the other hand, you can fashion very decent looking and above all, functional sites without any programming or even theming at all.
To go beyond the blogging question, simply set the front page as a page. If your site is basically a brochure site, you can start out by following Laura Scott's excellent "Approaching a brochureware website using Drupal" (link: http://pingv.com/blog/laura/200509/approaching-a-brochureware-website-using-...), which shows you which modules to use, to set up an about page, a products or services page, contact form, etc., all without programming.
Then, if you need special blocks, you can make them with a WYSIWYG editor like TinyMCE.
If you need special content types you can make them without programming just as you would in Access or the like by going to Administer >> Content Types.
If you need special views, you can create views, with their own special paths for page views, also without programming. These paths can be placed in menus or blocks holding links, or put on pages as links.
And you can house everything in the default Garland theme, with your own color scheme, dispensing with the graphic artist, and you will have a great site.
Good luck!
Victor Kane http://awebfactory.com.ar
On 4/25/07, Krister Ekstrom krister@kristersplace.ws wrote:
Hi, In the message quoted below you talked a lot of having to make ones own code to get around in Drupal. I know i'm a newbie to all this CMS stuff and i consider myself an idiot when it comes to programming in any shape
or form even though i know a tiny little bit about Javascript but not enough by far to get around, partly because i have a terrible memory for syntax, so my question is do i really need to know about programming to be able to manage Drupal? I chose to go with a CMS because as a blind person it can be quite tricky to do layout and contents that looks desent and more atractive than working in a standard html editor, but if you have to learn how to hack in order to manage this, maybe it's time to think again. /Krister
J-P Stacey wrote:
Hi,
I realized CMS is aimed at Blog users, and I am having tough time getting quick tutorials for commercial site where no Blog or News
Feeds
are needed.
I realize I'm late to this party, but as a newbie myself I've just
come
through the procedure of turning Drupal into my CMS of choice, so
being
rubbish is still fresh in my mind!
Although Drupal isn't specifically aimed at blog users, out of the box
I'd
say it *does* look very bloggy, so the confusion is understandable.
The
default theme is very much "WordPress++", I'd say. But under the hood
it has
different ways of doing things that mean you can move fairly quickly
away
from that.
My suggestions would be:
- CCK, as suggested elsewhere. You can create new content types with
Drupal
core, although they all have the same input fields. CCK provides the
ability
to create custom input fields, like dates or extra metadata.
- To get a more hierarchical structure to the site, look into the
category
module. This puts Drupal-core taxonomies into "containers": when a
content
node is tagged with a taxonomy term, it then goes into that container.
It's
a slight hack and a bit fiddly but it seems to work well.
- Get the hang of PHPTemplate, Drupal API, Drupal Form API and the
concept
of theme_* and hook_* functions early on, as it'll save you extra programming later. These permit you to hook up to Drupal core in your
own
templates, so you (a) don't reinvent the wheel and (b) have less
hassle
moving to a new theme later on.
- Learn about page Regions (sidebar, header, footer etc.) and the
Blocks
that go into them, and the Views you can use to automatically generate
content for blocks.
- For your own purposes, check out Drupal's language locale support.
Make
heavy use of the t() function in your own code and you should find you
can
translate between different languages easily.
- Similarly for your own use, look into one of the more
XHTML/CSS-friendly
included themes like garland. Some themes still make extensive use of
<table> elements for layout.
Good luck!
J-P
-- [ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]
Thanks, this sounds very exciting indeed. One more newbie question, is there a dummies guide to views, nodes and blocks? I tried to search for blocks, but couldn't find any getting started with blocks thingy tutorial, but i'm sure there are. Thanks /Krister
Victor Kane wrote:
I think you are on the right track using Drupal.
The confusion arises as users of all kinds get very excited about all levels of using this framework, and start getting carried away in their suggestions without taking into account what your objectives are.
Dries, the original creator of Drupal, spoke at the last conference about freeing the users from webmasters (you do not have to know HTML) and about how now the task is to free the users from programmers (and certainly from programming) and to free the users from designers also.
While people who love to program, or work as programmers, love to program a lot with Drupal, and as graphic designers work with Drupal in their every effort to make Drupal "not look like Drupal" for their fashion-conscious clients, on the other hand, you can fashion very decent looking and above all, functional sites without any programming or even theming at all.
To go beyond the blogging question, simply set the front page as a page. If your site is basically a brochure site, you can start out by following Laura Scott's excellent "Approaching a brochureware website using Drupal" (link: http://pingv.com/blog/laura/200509/approaching-a-brochureware-website-using-... ), which shows you which modules to use, to set up an about page, a products or services page, contact form, etc., all without programming.
Then, if you need special blocks, you can make them with a WYSIWYG editor like TinyMCE.
If you need special content types you can make them without programming just as you would in Access or the like by going to Administer >> Content Types.
If you need special views, you can create views, with their own special paths for page views, also without programming. These paths can be placed in menus or blocks holding links, or put on pages as links.
And you can house everything in the default Garland theme, with your own color scheme, dispensing with the graphic artist, and you will have a great site.
Good luck!
Victor Kane http://awebfactory.com.ar
On 4/25/07, *Krister Ekstrom* <krister@kristersplace.ws mailto:krister@kristersplace.ws> wrote:
Hi, In the message quoted below you talked a lot of having to make ones own code to get around in Drupal. I know i'm a newbie to all this CMS stuff and i consider myself an idiot when it comes to programming in any shape or form even though i know a tiny little bit about Javascript but not enough by far to get around, partly because i have a terrible memory for syntax, so my question is do i really need to know about programming to be able to manage Drupal? I chose to go with a CMS because as a blind person it can be quite tricky to do layout and contents that looks desent and more atractive than working in a standard html editor, but if you have to learn how to hack in order to manage this, maybe it's time to think again. /Krister J-P Stacey wrote: > Hi, > > > I realized CMS is aimed at Blog users, and I am having tough time >> getting quick tutorials for commercial site where no Blog or News Feeds >> are needed. > > I realize I'm late to this party, but as a newbie myself I've just come > through the procedure of turning Drupal into my CMS of choice, so being > rubbish is still fresh in my mind! > > Although Drupal isn't specifically aimed at blog users, out of the box I'd > say it *does* look very bloggy, so the confusion is understandable. The > default theme is very much "WordPress++", I'd say. But under the hood it has > different ways of doing things that mean you can move fairly quickly away > from that. > > My suggestions would be: > > * CCK, as suggested elsewhere. You can create new content types with Drupal > core, although they all have the same input fields. CCK provides the ability > to create custom input fields, like dates or extra metadata. > > * To get a more hierarchical structure to the site, look into the category > module. This puts Drupal-core taxonomies into "containers": when a content > node is tagged with a taxonomy term, it then goes into that container. It's > a slight hack and a bit fiddly but it seems to work well. > > * Get the hang of PHPTemplate, Drupal API, Drupal Form API and the concept > of theme_* and hook_* functions early on, as it'll save you extra > programming later. These permit you to hook up to Drupal core in your own > templates, so you (a) don't reinvent the wheel and (b) have less hassle > moving to a new theme later on. > > * Learn about page Regions (sidebar, header, footer etc.) and the Blocks > that go into them, and the Views you can use to automatically generate > content for blocks. > > * For your own purposes, check out Drupal's language locale support. Make > heavy use of the t() function in your own code and you should find you can > translate between different languages easily. > > * Similarly for your own use, look into one of the more XHTML/CSS-friendly > included themes like garland. Some themes still make extensive use of > <table> elements for layout. > > Good luck! > > J-P -- [ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]
Quoting Krister Ekstrom krister@kristersplace.ws:
Hi, In the message quoted below you talked a lot of having to make ones own code to get around in Drupal. I know i'm a newbie to all this CMS stuff and i consider myself an idiot when it comes to programming in any shape or form even though i know a tiny little bit about Javascript but not enough by far to get around, partly because i have a terrible memory for syntax, so my question is do i really need to know about programming to be able to manage Drupal? I chose to go with a CMS because as a blind person it can be quite tricky to do layout and contents that looks desent and more atractive than working in a standard html editor, but if you have to learn how to hack in order to manage this, maybe it's time to think again. /Krister
The programming parts would have to do with customizing beyond what is already available. If you don't want the default available then you need to be able to program around it or ask someone else to do it.
Earnie -- http://for-my-kids.com
You are right, Earnie, but we really mustn't forget to make it clear that there are tons of customizable features in Drupal where no programming is necessary at all. And you can learn it all in the Drupal built-in help and in the drupal.org handbooks.
On 4/25/07, Earnie Boyd earnie@users.sourceforge.net wrote:
Quoting Krister Ekstrom krister@kristersplace.ws:
Hi, In the message quoted below you talked a lot of having to make ones own code to get around in Drupal. I know i'm a newbie to all this CMS stuff and i consider myself an idiot when it comes to programming in any shape or form even though i know a tiny little bit about Javascript but not enough by far to get around, partly because i have a terrible memory for syntax, so my question is do i really need to know about programming to be able to manage Drupal? I chose to go with a CMS because as a blind person it can be quite tricky to do layout and contents that looks desent and more atractive than working in a standard html editor, but if you have to learn how to hack in order to manage this, maybe it's time to think again. /Krister
The programming parts would have to do with customizing beyond what is already available. If you don't want the default available then you need to be able to program around it or ask someone else to do it.
Earnie -- http://for-my-kids.com
[ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]
Op woensdag 25 april 2007, schreef Victor Kane:
The programming parts would have to do with customizing beyond what is already available. If you don't want the default available then you need to be able to program around it or ask someone else to do it.
In any case, Drupal is not as configuration-options rich as e.g. Joomla! is. Drupal assumes you a) change stuff by loading/unloading modules b) use some basic PHP skills, often also a requirement for a theme. c) use advanced modules (cck, views, flexinode, actions, workflows) which come with loats of configuration to do that without programming.
However, the basic Drupal though has been (and may still be) that 'it costs you 15 minutes to build a new node type module'. Its like that: no need to get all the overhead and fuss of CCK, views, and so forth when all you need is a new DB table, and 400 lines of PHP to achieve the same.
You may be able to get really far without a line of PHP. But then you either need a simple site (re: Drupal its not as configuration-rich as other CMSes), or lots of skills to learn about the complex concepts of CCK, views, actions, workflows and so forth. (re: steep learnnig curve)
Bèr
At least in Drupal 5, I have to disagree. Most of the sites I've done recently, professionally, are 95% existing modules. Once you learn how to really leverage CCK, Views, and other "first tier" modules, you can usually get 80% of what you want. Another 10% you can get from picking the right additional modules to install and knowing how to configure them.
The last 10%, though, is making the site look like its "yours" rather than Drupal. That's the hard part, and that part is where most of the code we've written goes. That's because:
1) Theming requires complex logic. 2) Complex logic requires a language capable of expressing it. 3) PHP is a language capable of expressing complex logic, and it's the one Drupal uses.
A lot of that is boilerplate code that you can copy and paste and sometimes modify, and in fact the theme system is built for that. But you need to have some idea of how PHP works. You don't need to be a first-rate programmer, but to do anything that doesn't look canned (either one of the default Drupal themes or someone else's general purpose Drupal theme) you do need to be able to tweak some code here and there at the theme layer.
And I challenge any other CMS to offer infinite flexibility layout without involving PHP. :-)
At least these days, though, the thinking I'm seeing is "it costs you 5 minutes to create a node type with CCK and add some fields to it". Throw Views at it, and you have any listing of nodes you want, anywhere you want. You just need to know how to configure it, which is confusing until you realize what it's doing, then it's easy. :-)
Making the node look like something other than the default? Then you need to understand how the theme layer works and know at least enough PHP that you don't panic as soon as you see a dollar sign.
--Larry Garfield
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:53:12 +0200, Bèr Kessels ber@webschuur.com wrote:
Op woensdag 25 april 2007, schreef Victor Kane:
The programming parts would have to do with customizing beyond what is already available. If you don't want the default available then you need to be able to program around it or ask someone else to do it.
In any case, Drupal is not as configuration-options rich as e.g. Joomla! is. Drupal assumes you a) change stuff by loading/unloading modules b) use some basic PHP skills, often also a requirement for a theme. c) use advanced modules (cck, views, flexinode, actions, workflows) which come with loats of configuration to do that without programming.
However, the basic Drupal though has been (and may still be) that 'it costs you 15 minutes to build a new node type module'. Its like that: no need to
get all the overhead and fuss of CCK, views, and so forth when all you need is a new DB table, and 400 lines of PHP to achieve the same.
You may be able to get really far without a line of PHP. But then you either need a simple site (re: Drupal its not as configuration-rich as other CMSes), or lots of skills to learn about the complex concepts of CCK, views, actions, workflows and so forth. (re: steep learnnig curve)
Bèr
Op woensdag 25 april 2007, schreef Larry Garfield:
Making the node look like something other than the default? Then you need to understand how the theme layer works and know at least enough PHP that you don't panic as soon as you see a dollar sign.
And may I ask you how you solve the issue where you have a PHP/CSS/XHTML theme, build on top of views/CCK and what more?
How you solve the issue where, at that point you want the last 10%, and for that, do some fancy theme-overriding, some #some-cool-cc-field { float:left; } CSS and some fancy FAPI overriding?
Obviously this is simple CSS, simple PHP. Possibly developed by some guru, even.
But... It effectivly kills your ability to use the web-interface. You can no longer administrate CCK fields: if you add any fields, they may not apear, because of your advanced theming. Or they may look crappy, because the CSS needs changing. From this moment on, all your changes require to go either via this guru, or at very least require PHP and/or CSS coding to be done.
This is not limited to Drupal and not limited to this very issue. It /is/, however, a serious concern: once you dive into PHP coding, you are stuck there forever. Felxibility comes with a great cost.
This is merely a warning, not a kick at Drupal or at the Drupal way. Its just that I have been there, done that many times. And more and more often find myself ignoring flexinode, cck and views alltogether, simplly because of the fact that in order to get that last 10%, I kill the only pro of these modules: online configuration.
Bèr
On Wednesday 25 April 2007 10:53 am, Bèr Kessels wrote:
This is merely a warning, not a kick at Drupal or at the Drupal way. Its just that I have been there, done that many times. And more and more often find myself ignoring flexinode, cck and views alltogether, simplly because of the fact that in order to get that last 10%, I kill the only pro of these modules: online configuration.
Bèr
Again, I disagree. Yes, once you start manually placing individual fields in a template file, you have to update it every time you add a new field.
1) That's why you do your node setup and configuration first, then your theming.
2) Even with that requirement, CCK/Views saves you all the database coding time. I'd rather spend 10 minutes setting up a node in CCK and have 50 minutes left over for theming it than spend 50 minutes setting up a node in a custom module and have 10 minutes left over to theme it. I trust CCK's code to not suck a lot more than my quick'n'sloppy hands. :-)
It also means that when you do add a field later, you still have no database or validation stuff to deal with. All you have to do is add a new field through the UI and add another print statement to the template. You never even see SQL or a validation routine.
On 4/25/07, Larry Garfield larry@garfieldtech.com wrote:
On Wednesday 25 April 2007 10:53 am, Bèr Kessels wrote:
This is merely a warning, not a kick at Drupal or at the Drupal way. Its just that I have been there, done that many times. And more and more
often
find myself ignoring flexinode, cck and views alltogether, simplly
because
of the fact that in order to get that last 10%, I kill the only pro of these modules: online configuration.
Bèr
Again, I disagree. Yes, once you start manually placing individual fields in a template file, you have to update it every time you add a new field.
- That's why you do your node setup and configuration first, then your
theming.
- Even with that requirement, CCK/Views saves you all the database coding
time. I'd rather spend 10 minutes setting up a node in CCK and have 50 minutes left over for theming it than spend 50 minutes setting up a node in a custom module and have 10 minutes left over to theme it. I trust CCK's code to not suck a lot more than my quick'n'sloppy hands. :-)
It also means that when you do add a field later, you still have no database or validation stuff to deal with. All you have to do is add a new field through the UI and add another print statement to the template. You never even see SQL or a validation routine.
-- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- [ Drupal support list | http://lists.drupal.org/ ]
J-P Stacey / 2007/04/25 / 04:46 AM wrote:
- Get the hang of PHPTemplate, Drupal API, Drupal Form API and the concept
of theme_* and hook_* functions early on, as it'll save you extra programming later.
Yes, I have noticed they aren't straightforward as Joomla is. Out of the box, I wanted to pseudo CSS hack on content area but I just couldn't figure out which element I am looking for, and was unable to find documentation for Garland CSS. I am just an weekend coder, and no pro, but hope to learn it soon :-)
Nevertheless, all of your suggestions were very helpful. I am about to dive into CCK and Views documentations, only to realize there is no easy way to print them onto duplex printer. On this regard, Joomla was easier. Just download the entire topic to print out.
Because of my minor medical condition, I can't read documentation on screen. Is there any better way of printing the entire topic, say CCK, as one document so duplex printer will save trees instead of printing off browser?
P.S. My other concern is that Drupal.org is quite slow to me. Just searching for CCK documentation took 3 minutes, click on the link to get to the node is another 2-3 minutes.
I wrote:
only to realize there is no easy way to print them onto duplex printer.
Ooops! I didn't see Printer-Friendly link. I am happy now :-)
On 25.Apr.2007, at 09:30, A-NO-NE Music wrote:
Yes, I have noticed they aren't straightforward as Joomla is. Out of the box, I wanted to pseudo CSS hack on content area but I just couldn't figure out which element I am looking for, and was unable to find documentation for Garland CSS. I am just an weekend coder, and no pro, but hope to learn it soon :-)
I've learned to code PHPTemplate themes for Drupal by trial and error. I was one of the "super-users" here who suggested module developers move away from hard coding CSS into their modules or create custom classes for them. The difference 2 years can make! I am now doing a major theme overhaul of all my sites and I can't tell you how much I am enjoying it --yet, I've got to admit most of the joy comes from being able to read the CSS tags through Firefox thanks to the "Web Developer" extension. Without it, I would have "rended more shirts" and "gnashed all my teeth" trying to keep track of all the CSS that is added to Drupal via modules :)
Whatever you do, just get thet web dev extension for Firefox. I can't tell you how it will improve the quality of your drupal designing life ;)
/ liza
Liza Sabater, Publisher www.culturekitchen.com www.dailygotham.com
MOB - 646.552.7365 AIM - cultkitdiva SKYPE - lizasabater
On 26/04/07, blogdiva@culturekitchen.com blogdiva@culturekitchen.com wrote:
Whatever you do, just get thet web dev extension for Firefox. I can't tell you how it will improve the quality of your drupal designing life ;)
If you liked the web developer extension, you'll love Firebug.
It gives a view of the inheritance cascade for each element you select by listing which stylesheets and selectors (incl line numbers) each of the styles comes from and also shows which ones are overridden by others. You can hover over the colour numbers and background image urls to see what they are, get the box sizes, paddings and margins shaded (including ruler lines for lining stuff up), then edit all the CSS values and HTML live on the page.
And that is only just scratching the surface.
On 26/04/07, blogdiva@culturekitchen.com blogdiva@culturekitchen.com wrote:
Whatever you do, just get thet web dev extension for Firefox. I can't tell you how it will improve the quality of your drupal designing life ;)
If you liked the web developer extension, you'll love Firebug.
Howdy,
for Mac users another gem is CSSedit by MacRabbit ( http:// www.macrabbit.com/cssedit ) Fresh 2.5 version has a beautiful way to validate style sheets with W3C standards, and smexy features it always had such as Milestones, Live Preview and Xray.
If you are a PC web designer, that's a very god reason to buy a Mac ;)
cheers,
Marco
Anton wrote:
On 26/04/07, blogdiva@culturekitchen.com blogdiva@culturekitchen.com wrote:
Whatever you do, just get thet web dev extension for Firefox. I can't tell you how it will improve the quality of your drupal designing life ;)
If you liked the web developer extension, you'll love Firebug.
Beaten me to it! For reference:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/60 https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1843
To steer this back into Drupal waters.... Given Drupal has an API structure, is there any scope for a Drupal Firefox plugin? It seems like existing modules just expose e.g. MetaWeblog and MoveableType APIs: could a module expose the whole API (to users with certain permissions) and some browser-side code hooked up to it? Would there be any use for such a plugin?
This is what happens before my first coffee of the day, you see.
Cheers, J-P
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A-NO-NE Music -
Anton -
blogdiva＠culturekitchen.com -
Bèr Kessels -
Cyberswat -
Earnie Boyd -
J-P Stacey -
Jean Gazis -
Krister Ekstrom -
Larry Garfield -
Laura Scott -
marcob -
Victor Kane -
Yves Chedemois